Europe's Web of Debt

auldwan · 02-05-2010 08:34PM #1

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=global

A map showing the debt between Europe's top 5 indebted countries (we're one of them of course). Interesting stuff.

segaBOY · 02-05-2010 08:37PM

auldwan wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=global

A map showing the debt between Europe's top 5 indebted countries (we're one of them of course). Interesting stuff.

Sh!ts in pants

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 02-05-2010 08:39PM

It would be less of a web if they done the math... Italy owes Spain €47, Spain owes Italy €31... Doesn't make sense to me.

mikom · 02-05-2010 08:42PM

auldwan wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=global

A map showing the debt between Europe's top 5 indebted countries (we're one of them of course). Interesting stuff.

Greece
Spain
Italy
Portugal
Ireland?

♫ One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song? ♫

Yeah... where's my sunshine bitch.

segaBOY · 02-05-2010 08:42PM

Amira Inexpensive Mineralogist wrote: »

It would be less of a web if they done the math... Italy owes Spain €47, Spain owes Italy €31... Doesn't make sense to me.

Banks and Governments borrow from eachother.

El Weirdo · 02-05-2010 08:43PM

Amira Inexpensive Mineralogist wrote: »

It would be less of a web if they done the math... Italy owes Spain €47, Spain owes Italy €31... Doesn't make sense to me.

I'm no economist, but I'm guessing it's a little bit more than that...

pablomakaveli · 02-05-2010 08:44PM

Its depressing when you see how badly in debt this country is.:(

Kasabian · 02-05-2010 08:44PM

Amira Inexpensive Mineralogist wrote: »

It would be less of a web if they done the math... Italy owes Spain €47, Spain owes Italy €31... Doesn't make sense to me.

€78 , fcuk is that all , i'll give it to them

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 02-05-2010 08:45PM

segaBOY wrote: »

Banks and Governments borrow from eachother.

Ahhhh, I see... Cheers

El Weirdo wrote: »

I'm no economist, but I'm guessing it's a little bit more than that...

Sorry, could have been €49 :P

HalloweenJack · 02-05-2010 08:49PM

How does Ireland owe more than countries that are about twice the size of it (population wise)?

Also, if Greece had to be bailed out, surely we're in a deeper mess as we have a smaller income tax base.

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 08:49PM

Where did they get those figures? Its all over the place, according to the national debt clock we're at just over €80 billion, which sounds about right, not ten times as much. Also, when did the UK start getting mentioned in the same sentence as Germany and France? If there is one country thats worse off than us its them, just nobody cares much since they aren't in the Eurozone.

SugarHigh · 02-05-2010 08:51PM

To get rid of some of the money we owe we should tell Britain to feck that they ain't getting a penny because were still bitter and we should tell Germany to feck because they will be too scared to do anything to us in case the world starts to think there gone back to being nazi's.

Then I'm just an idiot who knows nothing about this and was just drawn in by the colourful graph.

SugarHigh · 02-05-2010 08:54PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Where did they get those figures? Its all over the place, according to the national debt clock we're at just over €80 billion, which sounds about right, not ten times as much.

If I get a loan for €20,000 to buy a car then that is how much I am in debt to the bank but my overall debt isn't really €20,000 because the car is still worth something.

The rest of your post wasn't worth replying to.

Mrmoe · 02-05-2010 08:55PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Where did they get those figures? Its all over the place, according to the national debt clock we're at just over €80 billion, which sounds about right, not ten times as much. Also, when did the UK start getting mentioned in the same sentence as Germany and France? If there is one country thats worse off than us its them, just nobody cares much since they aren't in the Eurozone.

I'd guess that it could be the money that is owed privately as well, not just by the state. Potentially private debt could be much higher than national debt.

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 09:00PM

Mrmoe wrote: »

I'd guess that it could be the money that is owed privately as well, not just by the state. Potentially private debt could be much higher than national debt.

No, Irish banks hold just over €100 billion in retail mortgages, and the attached article doesn't provide any illumination either. Has AH just been trolled by the NYT?

galwayrush · 02-05-2010 09:05PM

No need to worry, apparently the fundementals of our eceomony are sound..........:rolleyes:

Shanegggg · 02-05-2010 09:10PM

I think the scariest part is when divide that figure by population. Compared to all the other countries we're well worse off per head!

Expect to see more stealth taxes etc. for years to come!

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 09:15PM

Shanegggg wrote: »

I think the scariest part is when divide that figure by population.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, the figures are bollocks.

auldwan · 02-05-2010 09:20PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Where did they get those figures? Its all over the place, according to the national debt clock we're at just over €80 billion

The article says "Source: Bank for International Settlements". Maybe the debt clock ran out of digits (or overflowed)

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 09:25PM

auldwan wrote: »

The article says "Source: Bank for International Settlements". Maybe the debt clock ran out of digits (or overflowed)

Doubt it, from the National Treasury Management Agency:

At end December 2009 the National Debt of Ireland was 75.2 billion euro.

I'd think the NTMA might notice €700 billion odd of a difference. Unless the BIS is counting whatever is going through the IFSC at the minute, which has nothing to do with Ireland.

rainbowtrout · 02-05-2010 09:41PM

Doesn't the US have a different definition of billion to Europeans?

US: 10^9 = 1 billion
Europe: 10^12 = 1 billion

So stick in a decimal and 867 becomes 86.7 which isn't too far off where we are

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 09:46PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Don't the US have a different definition of billion to Europeans?

US: 10^9 = 1 billion
Europe: 10^12 = 1 billion

So stick in a decimal and 864 becomes 86.7 which isn't too far off where we are

Ireland uses the short scale, 1000 million = 1 billion, same as the US, which still puts it out by a factor of 100. I'd seriously like to know where they came up with this inflammatory nonsense.

Mark200 · 02-05-2010 09:46PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Doesn't the US have a different definition of billion to Europeans?

US: 10^9 = 1 billion
Europe: 10^12 = 1 billion

So stick in a decimal and 867 becomes 86.7 which isn't too far off where we are

You put the decimal in the wrong place. You've to move it over 3 places if it's off by 1000, which would be .867....

We've been using the same definition of billion as the US for years.

rainbowtrout · 02-05-2010 09:49PM

Mark200 wrote: »

You put the decimal in the wrong place. You've to move it over 3 places if it's off by 1000, which would be .867....

We've been using the same definition of billion as the US for years.

Oh damn, i was starting to see double with all the 0s

I don't normally have to deal with billions in everyday life

Einhard · 02-05-2010 09:50PM

auldwan wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=global

Looks like an outline of a few starships gathering around a space dock to me.

Struggles to contain his inner nerd...

Ireland's debt is actually relatively low. And we have some chance of seeing a return on a proportion of the money borrowed. So the picture isn't as bleak as the figures might suggest.

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 09:52PM

Einhard wrote: »

And is made up of some debt on which we have some chance of seeing a return.

Nope, NAMA isn't counted as part of the national debt.

Einhard · 02-05-2010 09:54PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nope, NAMA isn't counted as part of the national debt.

Yeah but the bank bailouts are. And we're likely to realise some form of return on the monies invested into BofI and AIB at least.

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 09:56PM

Einhard wrote: »

Yeah but the bank bailouts are. And we're likely to realise some form of return on the monies invested into BofI and AIB at least.

And if they can't pay, we get equity, as we already have, which is what should have been done with senior bondholders in the first place. There's no upside here...

rossie1977 · 02-05-2010 10:00PM

the ny times and getting their numbers wrong shocker

actually irelands gross external debt stands at €1.6 trillion and falling

but we are not alone, uk gross external debt is about $10 trillion and US total is about $55 trillion (not the £1t and $12t you normally see banded about)

interestingly little luxembourg owe more external debt than we do, basically everyone is f**ked

Einhard · 02-05-2010 10:08PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And if they can't pay, we get equity, as we already have, which is what should have been done with senior bondholders in the first place. There's no upside here...

Yes and the equity can be sold when the markets pick up and the share price rises. Unless you think that none of the Irish banks currently operating have any future? Also, I seem to remember a report last week that BofI would be paying pack half a billion to the exchequer in the short term. Surely that counts as a positive?

I don't mean to suggest that everything is rosy, but neither do I think we should ignore any and every positive, and accentuate every possible negative.

Mike 1972 · 02-05-2010 10:31PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

Then I'm just an idiot who knows nothing about this and was just drawn in by the colourful graph.

That the sort of refreshing honesty that we could do with more of around here.

Europe's Web of Debt

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