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Belgium bans the Burka

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Comments

  • #32
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    Massive protest outside Belgian embassy

    http://www.salvo.co.uk/images/userimgs/22168/Post-Boxes_41039_2.jpg


  • #33
    Caliden
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭Caliden


    Well if we have to obey their customs/laws when we go to their country I see it's only fair that they follow ours.
    Can't have it both ways but I'm awaiting the screams of racism....

    :rolleyes:


  • #34
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Well the burka is a sign of the perceived lower status of women and I disagree with their principal. But at the same time banning them outright is infringing on religious rights. Could they not just ban religion? :o

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #35
    ztoical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    Abrasax wrote: »
    If a woman is wearing a burka it's probably unlikely she'd be doing the banking in the first place

    Not true the fact that she is wearing the burka means she can go outside, she's not allowed outside otherwise. I live in an area of London that has alot of women wearing burqas and Niqābs [like the burka it covers the full face just leaving a slit for the eyes] who I see everyday in the bank, shops, post office etc etc

    There are also plenty of women who wear the hijab headscarf which covers the head and neck but you can see the face. I've no issue with the headscarf but the burqa and Niqāb I can't see a reason for other then to force women into submissive roles. If I went to a country were I was told as a woman I had to cover myself then I would respect that but that's different to the situation in Belgium and other european countries. The ban is for covering like the burqa and niqab that cover the face not the headscarf but if people want to argue faith the face coverings are a cultural thing and not something from Islamic teachings.


  • #36
    brummytom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    Belgium is set to become the first ever country in Europe to ban the burqa from being worn in public places.


    Good


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  • #37
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Well the burka is a sign of the perceived lower status of women and I disagree with their principal.

    Nope. It is an item of clothing that predates Islam. There origins of it have nothing to do with the lower status of women, it had far more practical beginnings.


  • #38
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,533 ✭✭✭SV


    Progress :)


  • #39
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,755 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Firstly it's not an outright ban, only public places.

    France and Holland are considering it too and I'd say not too many other EU states are far behind.

    There are valid reason to restrict it in some circumstances, like for photo ID comparisons and so forth.


  • #40
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    prinz wrote: »
    Nope. It is an item of clothing that predates Islam. There origins of it have nothing to do with the lower status of women, it had far more practical beginnings.
    Fair enough. In Islam it does have that connotation though, which is what I disagree with and there would be no practical benifit to wearing it in Europe.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #41
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Abrasax wrote: »
    So, I should trust your feeling on the subject as opposed to the BBC reporting?
    I can't see any possible agenda for misreporting and presumably there was research carried out by the Belgian government before imposing such a ban.
    Of the 10.7 million in Belgium only half a million are Muslim. Presumably about half of them are women, so it's 30 out of 500,000, not 10.7 mill.
    It may surprise you to know I do actually walk around there with my eyes open and my business in Antwerp takes me to the Muslim districts in the north of that city and I can only remeber seeing a woman in a burka once, so a number as high as thirty surprised me.

    Unbelieveable...

    I have been to belgium many times, Antwerp, Brussels, Liege, Gent, Geel, etc etc. I can tell you one thing, there are a lot more than 30 people in Belgium wearing a burka. What kind of research was done on the topic? How was that research preformed? Probability states that this figgure is incorrect. The BBC have this wrong. Why do they state so? Personal agendas? Sensationalist bullshít?

    It is highely unlikely, that in the whole of Belgium, that only 30 women wear the burka. It's complete and utter crap.

    The research should be carried out much better than it was, with a proper sample size.


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  • #42
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,755 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Angie Moldy Police wrote: »
    It is highely unlikely, that in the whole of Belgium, that only 30 women wear the burka. It's complete and utter crap.
    .

    it'll be even more unlikely soon enough :pac:


  • #43
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Fair enough. In Islam it does have that connotation though, which is what I disagree with and there would be no practical benifit to wearing it in Europe.

    Indeed there is no practical benefit, or religious imperative to wear them whatsoever.


  • #44
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,755 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    prinz wrote: »
    Indeed there is no practical benefit, or religious imperative to wear them whatsoever.

    no but I'm sure it has gotten to a point in many Islamic countries that if you as a women tried to go out not wearing it there would be problems to say the least.


  • #45
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Angie Moldy Police wrote: »
    I for one support this action, fcuk them if they think they can go to another country and pressure the government into changing their ways. If you don't like it, fcuk back to where you came from.

    +1


  • #46
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    no but I'm sure it has gotten to a point in many Islamic countries that if you as a women tried to go out not wearing it there would be problems to say the least.

    Yes, of course there would be in some countries but the only country I can think of where the burka in particular was ever mandatory or enforced is Afghanistan. Most places require a head covering, and modest clothing.

    Interestingly enough what is often forgotten is that some traditional/cultural Muslim countries also have laws about these kinds of clothing, prohibiting face coverings in government buildings, universities, schools, etc.AFAIK Turkey and Tunisia have these laws yet you won't hav the same people on here whinging about their civil rights being violated.


  • #47
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    AFAIK Turkey and Tunisia have these laws yet you won't hav the same people on here whinging about their civil rights being violated.

    Those are secular states, with a majority Muslim populace, and somone else doing something doesn't make it right either btw.


  • #48
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    wes wrote: »
    Those are secular states, with a majority Muslim populace, and somone else doing something doesn't make it right either btw.

    Yet the Muslim populace seems to get by fine. Try to bring in a similar law in Belgium suddenly civil rights are being breached :rolleyes:


  • #49
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Fair enough. In Islam it does have that connotation though, which is what I disagree with and there would be no practical benifit to wearing it in Europe.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    it'll be even more unlikely soon enough :pac:

    No no no no no!

    They see it as practical, as women who wear burkas do so because they want to be judged by who they are and not what they look like. For example; If a woman stops you and asks you for directions, you're more likely to be as helpful as possible if they're a stunner with a cracking pair of tits rather than a munter.


  • #50
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    Yet the Muslim populace seems to get by fine. Try to bring in a similar law in Belgium suddenly civil rights are being breached :rolleyes:

    The Turkish government actually tried to repeal the ban btw, and the party was nearly banned by the courts, due to it. It one of there electoral promises. So, the laws being changed is not for a lack of trying.

    As for Tunisia, well it is an Authoritarain police state, so its not like the people get to decide anything at all.

    Also, just because other countries do the same thing does not mean civil rights are not being breached.


  • #51
    Jazzy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭Jazzy


    I like the way they are forcing this, they look like pricks for doing it but isnt there an expression in some of the more extreme muslim circles like "a woman without a burka is a woman too much". bout time a goernment did something about these backwards social ideals. Someone like Shirin Ebadi has been fighting for change for a long time and even though it looks like Belgium is using a sledghammer to kill a fly, its the idea I like. For Islam (like any religion) to be taken seriously it needs to change and stop treating women like second class citizens


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  • #52
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    wes wrote: »
    As for Tunisia, well it is an Authoritarain police state, so its not like the people get to decide anything at all.

    ..and yet again on another issue, I fail to recall any thread about Tunisia and it's civil rights breaches on the Islam, or any other forum.
    wes wrote: »
    Also, just because other countries do the same thing does not mean civil rights are not being breached.

    Is it my civil right to open a bookies/pub in Mecca?


  • #53
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    ..and yet again on another issue, I fail to recall any thread about Tunisia and it's civil rights breaches on the Islam, or any other forum.

    Um, so what?!? Why didn't you start the thread then, if you think there needed.

    There not being a thread hardly matters changes what Tunisia is now, but is useful way for you try and change the subject and ignore the point being made. You brought it up as an example, and I pointed out that it was an Authoritarian police state, which you seem to think we should emulate. Any other countries we should emulate, how about Zimbabwe?!?
    prinz wrote: »
    Is it my civil right to open a bookies/pub in Mecca?

    Hardly an apt comparison.

    **EDIT**
    You wouldn't be able to open one in parts of the US either, btw. Also, do you think Saudi Arabia is a country we should emulate then?
    **END EDIT**


  • #54
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    prinz wrote: »
    Is it my civil right to open a bookies/pub in Mecca?

    No

    But niether is it your civil right to do so in Dublin

    Either way its pretty irrelevent.


  • #55
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    No
    But niether is it your civil right to do so in Dublin
    Either way its pretty irrelevent.

    Why? Because there are laws governing such things? Just like there are laws about what I am allowed to wear ( or not wear ) in public?
    wes wrote: »
    Um, so what?!? Why didn't you start the thread then, if you think there needed..

    Simple, I don't see the issue. Obviously it's a problem for some people, or rather it becomes a problem for some people depending on the country in question.
    wes wrote: »
    Any other countries we should emulate, how about Zimbabwe?!?
    Hardly an apt comparison.

    You answered your own question there.


  • #56
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    Simple, I don't see the issue. Obviously it's a problem for some people, or rather it becomes a problem for some people depending on the country in question.

    So your ok with Police states, well thats good to know.
    prinz wrote: »
    You answered your own question there.

    So, we should only emulate some countries, when we need to justify dodgy new laws, we wish to put in place. So basically, as long as someone else does it, that makes things ok then.


  • #57
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    wes wrote: »
    So your ok with Police states, well thats good to know..

    Bit of a stretch there. Like to point out where I said I am ok with police states? I don't have an issue with a country banning face covering in public, suddenly I am ok with police states? :confused:
    wes wrote: »
    So, we should only emulate some countries, when we need to justify dodgy new laws, we wish to put in place.

    No, just pointing out the simple double standards that usually applies in these cases.


  • #58
    Abrasax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Abrasax


    Angie Moldy Police wrote: »
    Unbelieveable...

    I have been to belgium many times, Antwerp, Brussels, Liege, Gent, Geel, etc etc. I can tell you one thing, there are a lot more than 30 people in Belgium wearing a burka. What kind of research was done on the topic? How was that research preformed? Probability states that this figgure is incorrect. The BBC have this wrong. Why do they state so? Personal agendas? Sensationalist bullshít?

    It is highely unlikely, that in the whole of Belgium, that only 30 women wear the burka. It's complete and utter crap.

    The research should be carried out much better than it was, with a proper sample size.

    Here's another Belgian news source which says, in the second last paragraph, there are 250 burka wearers in Belgium.

    http://www.hbvl.be/nieuws/binnenland/aid924116/belgie-eerste-europese-land-dat-boerka-verbiedt.aspx?cmt=all

    To reiterate my original point, 30 or 250, it's hardly a massive security headache for a country that's never suffered an attack by muslim extremists.


  • #59
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    Bit of a stretch there. Like to point out where I said I am ok with police states? I don't have an issue with a country banning face covering in public, suddenly I am ok with police states? :confused:

    Fair enough, that was hypebole on my part.
    prinz wrote: »
    No, just pointing out the simple double standards that usually applies in these cases.

    What double standard? You know everyone opinion on laws in Tunisia and Turkey? Seems like an even bigger stretch then the one I did earlier.

    Also, btw Turkish laws regarding the Hijab have been brought up in threads before.


  • #60
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Abrasax wrote: »
    Here's another Belgian news source which says, in the second last paragraph, there are 250 burka wearers in Belgium.

    http://www.hbvl.be/nieuws/binnenland/aid924116/belgie-eerste-europese-land-dat-boerka-verbiedt.aspx?cmt=all

    To reiterate my original point, 30 or 250, it's hardly a massive security headache for a country that's never suffered an attack by muslim extremists.

    I speak very little Dutch/Flemmish, but I get the point. It's still a lot more than the BBC's initial report. This report could be inaccurate too.

    For the record, I would support the same action regardless of what religion it is. Abide by the rules of the country, or go to where the rules suit you. Don't change a countries rules to keep a minority happy.


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  • #61
    Prof.Badass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Prof.Badass


    TheZohan wrote: »
    But western women have to cover up in a lot of Muslim countries, that infringes their rights too.

    Yes, which is why a lot of people hate those muslim countries (i can't say i'm a fan of them myself). A move like this makes us no better than them.


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