Why oh why oh does political rivalry still exist in Martial Arts??

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 12:19AM #1

I'm writing this thread about a frustation that many people still seem to have. An area they get very annoyed about in Martial Arts; politics and rivalry.

I planned to suggest to my Chief Instructor the possibility of arranging a competition where we invite other WKF Karate Styles and the likes of Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido to compete against each other.

The purpose was to encourage friendly relations amongst different styles and show that rivalry and politics had no place in Martial Arts today...

I didn't get the chance to mention it... I discussed it with someone and they spoke with him and he just refused the idea. I didn't get a reason why or chance to discuss this properly, I spoke with a few people and they were very supportive of the idea.

I am leaving my club; not for this reason, but because I have to relocate. Although I do feel saddened that this insular mindset still exists today.

Politics is appropriate only when it comes to human moral decency in society and affairs of a nation... Not Marital Arts.

lawrencesummers · 28-04-2010 12:24AM

insecurity.

people like to be in their comfort zone, not have to challenge themselves or have to prove themselves outside their little circle.

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 07:58AM

lawrencesummers wrote: »

insecurity.

people like to be in their comfort zone, not have to challenge themselves or have to prove themselves outside their little circle.

Insecurity in times like these is a luxury that no-one can afford...

Martial Arts shouldn't be insular like it is.

rom · 28-04-2010 09:56AM

I thought that is what open comps are for.

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 10:25AM

rom wrote: »

I thought that is what open comps are for.

Who arranges these open Tournaments?

From what I understand it has to be organisations, the only open tournaments I've read about are still exclusive to one martial art but allow external clubs to enter.

Doug Cartel · 28-04-2010 10:41AM

You get politics in martial arts for the same reason you get politics in golf clubs and parents councils - it's just human nature.

I'm not even 100% sure if what you've described is political. It could be that he just doesn't want to organise a big tournament. If the idea was to have as inclusive a tournament as possible, then chances are it would get very hard to manage very quickly.

If you want to see some real nasty politics, look at the stuff that goes on within organisations.

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 10:55AM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

You get politics in martial arts for the same reason you get politics in golf clubs and parents councils - it's just human nature.

I'm not even 100% sure if what you've described is political. It could be that he just doesn't want to organise a big tournament. If the idea was to have as inclusive a tournament as possible, then chances are it would get very hard to manage very quickly.

If you want to see some real nasty politics, look at the stuff that goes on within organisations.

It appears to be political....

I didn't even get a chance to say that all that would be required was his permission for it to happen.

The Ideal Venue has been identified

Clubs of Styles contact Details have been collected

Sparring Details of each style have been identified

Insurance for the Event to happen

Officials from each style would be present

How much the event and extra equipment would cost e.g. Floormats

Identifying what sparring equipment is required for WKF, ITF, WTF, TSD & KHF Participants

How the tournament would be structured and planned...It would have oversight from instructors but the event would be planned and managed by senior rank students/ non-teaching dan grades.

He wouldn't have any heavy involvement at all... the students would do the work for him.

Doug Cartel · 28-04-2010 11:06AM

DaBrow wrote: »

It appears to be political....

I didn't even get a chance to say that all that would be required was his permission for it to happen.

The Ideal Venue has been identified

Clubs of Styles contact Details have been collected

Sparring Details of each style have been identified

Insurance for the Event to happen

Officials from each style would be present

How much the event and extra equipment would cost e.g. Floormats

How the tournament would be structured and planned...It would have oversight from instructors but the event would be planned and managed by senior rank students/ non-teaching dan grades.

He wouldn't have any heavy involvement at all... So the pressure is off him.

Well I don't know the guy, I don't know how much experience you have with organising and running tournaments, I don't know how much work he personally would have to put into it, and I don't know what commitments outside of martial arts the guy has, but personally I'd give him the benefit of the doubt here.

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 11:21AM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Well I don't know the guy, I don't know how much experience you have with organising and running tournaments, I don't know how much work he personally would have to put into it, and I don't know what commitments outside of martial arts the guy has, but personally I'd give him the benefit of the doubt here.

The plans are in place... All that would be required is a re-evaluation and then they can be executed.

I've not personally organised any tournaments myself, but I am meticulous and detailed as a person.

His role would've been supervisory in the form of giving advice if we needed clarity over something... That is all.

Furious-Dave · 28-04-2010 11:42AM

If your own instructor is not giving it much thought then why not contact someone else? Like the people who organize the all styles Karate tournament.

As Doug said rivalry and politics are part of human nature. They will always be around in everything people do.

Doug Cartel · 28-04-2010 11:49AM

DaBrow wrote: »

The plans are in place... All that would be required is a re-evaluation and then they can be executed.

I've not personally organised any tournaments myself, but I am meticulous and detailed as a person.

His role would've been supervisory in the form of giving advice if we needed clarity over something... That is all.

So you've never organised a tournament before, and for your first one you want to have multiple organisations and compromise rules?

Your instructor's only role in this would be to pick up the pieces if (when) things go wrong?

... and you think he doesn't want to sign off on this for pure political reasons?

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 11:53AM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

So you've never organised a tournament before, and for your first one you want to have multiple organisations and compromise rules?

Your instructor's only role in this would be to pick up the pieces if (when) things go wrong?

... and you think he doesn't want to sign off on this for pure political reasons?

I've helped organise other events... Don't jump to conclusions.

The event would cater on a two-tier system... Participants competing against their own style and those that wish to compete against another style.

I would help plan it and execute it .. If there were any mistakes, I'd take the blame.

It would have been a joined event between ourselves and a university karate team.

No-one Else, I didn't get a chance to even say that.

Doug Cartel · 28-04-2010 12:09PM

DaBrow wrote: »

I've helped organise other events... Don't jump to conclusions.

Then when I asked you, you should have said this.

The event would cater on a two-tier system... Participants competing against their own style and those that wish to compete against another style.

I would help plan it and execute it .. If there were any mistakes, I'd take the blame.

Seriously, start small. Just look at the threads on here about the headaches people have running BJJ tournaments. That's one sport. You want to run what is equivalent to several tournaments at once.

No-one Else, I didn't get a chance to even say that.

Oh, I'm sorry.

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 12:22PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Seriously, start small. Just look at the threads on here about the headaches people have running BJJ tournaments. That's one sport. You want to run what is equivalent to several tournaments at once.

I don't think he was even keen on the idea of an open WKF Styles tournament either...

It is possible to group these arts under one roof... As long as you have effective planning.

The symbolic message of the idea was to show openess with friendly competing against each other.

Doug Cartel · 28-04-2010 12:45PM

DaBrow wrote: »

I don't think he was even keen on the idea of an open WKF Styles tournament either...

It is possible to group these arts under one roof... As long as you have effective planning.

The symbolic message of the idea was to show openess with friendly competing against each other.

Like I said before, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just down to him not being interested, and not part of some political machinations.

You pitched an idea to the guy and he didn't take it. These things happen. You can either throw the idea out, change it a bit and try again, or just hold on to it until some time in the future when conditions are more favourable.

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 01:37PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Like I said before, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just down to him not being interested, and not part of some political machinations.

You pitched an idea to the guy and he didn't take it. These things happen. You can either throw the idea out, change it a bit and try again, or just hold on to it until some time in the future when conditions are more favourable.

It wasn't pitched properly... I think I'll mention it to him again by correspondance when I have relocated.

I don't see how it can't be done and not benefit themselves.

Karate schools need to have a unique selling point in order to attract students; we are in desperate need of new adults in class.

95 people attended last years camp, this year 68 people attended and there are 400 members.

I've not noticed any new members since I joined last year.

Barry.Oglesby · 28-04-2010 04:19PM

Wasn't the All Valley Karate Tournament an all-styles tournament? You could try entering that? The other options are the Kumite one that takes place on the big sort of skate ramp and there seem to be a few tournaments about that have a sort of mix of martial arts.

Politics man, pffft. Bummer

Ug Lee · 28-04-2010 06:31PM

According to Aristotle, "Man is by nature a political animal".

You can't escape it. Better to acknowledge it and either partake in it or take steps to minimise its effect on you.

But I would argue that it is political rivalry which makes us (humankind) excel. If there was no political rivalry, maybe there would have been no original need for martial arts.

DaBrow · 28-04-2010 06:39PM

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Wasn't the All Valley Karate Tournament an all-styles tournament? You could try entering that? The other options are the Kumite one that takes place on the big sort of skate ramp and there seem to be a few tournaments about that have a sort of mix of martial arts.

Politics man, pffft. Bummer

That isn't a real tournament and also to add it would be a 12-hr flight to los Angeles.

Please... Let's be serious.

DaBrow · 29-04-2010 11:02AM

I don't understand why there can't be one event... to just put things aside for the greater good.

I'm not asking for full-blown integration, just something that encourages good relations and respect.

Not much to ask is it?

pablohoney87 · 29-04-2010 11:19AM

DaBrow wrote: »

I don't understand why there can't be one event... to just put things aside for the greater good.

I'm not asking for full-blown integration, just something that encourages good relations and respect.

Not much to ask is it?

If you cant understand why there cant be why dont you just try and set up one yourself?

Furious-Dave · 29-04-2010 11:46AM

DaBrow wrote: »

I don't understand why there can't be one event... to just put things aside for the greater good.

I'm not asking for full-blown integration, just something that encourages good relations and respect.

Not much to ask is it?

Seriously, I think you need to just chill out for a while. You seem to have good ideas but you overreact when they get shot down on the first attempt. Have you even gone yourself to your instructor to talk about your idea? It may take talking to 10 different instructors before you find someone interested in making the event happen. But before you talk to anyone you need put together a presentation to help sell your idea. Doesn't ONAKAI do all styles Karate events? Why not talk to them?

siochain · 02-05-2010 07:20PM

there several open events on in Ireland, one of the bigest open tournaments in the world held in Dublin every march

http://www.irishopenonline.com/

there are two open events coming up

Carbury Martial Arts on 30/05
AKAI Open 04/07

http://www.kickboxingireland.ie/

Ug Lee · 02-05-2010 08:40PM

DaBrow wrote: »

I planned to suggest to my Chief Instructor the possibility of arranging a competition where we invite other WKF Karate Styles and the likes of Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido to compete against each other. The purpose was to encourage friendly relations amongst different styles and show that rivalry and politics had no place in Martial Arts today....

But do you think that having a competition between other WKF Karate Styles and the likes of Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido would solve the problem and encourage friendly relations?

DaBrow · 02-05-2010 11:42PM

Ug Lee wrote: »

But do you think that having a competition between other WKF Karate Styles and the likes of Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido would solve the problem and encourage friendly relations?

Yes, I believe it would.

I believe if clubs from each WKF Style of Karate (Wado, Goju, ****o & Shotokan) all competed against the likes of Tang Soo, Hapkido and Taekwondo. Only good things can happen

It would show how similar the styles are against one another and generate interaction... Like Respect and Greater Knowledge of what else exists.

Martial Arts shouldn't be political; bad things happen when things are insular all the time, particularly when it comes to competition. It creates an arrogant sense of superiority with the student over other fighting systems...

Most Karate events are entirely exclusive to one style... The same with Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido.

I remember a very influencial TKD Chief Instructor who was one of the leading UK Olympic TKD Coaches say that Karate was outdated...

This mentality is dangerous and the fact it is wide-spread doesn't do Martial Arts a great service

joepenguin · 03-05-2010 02:02AM

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Wasn't the All Valley Karate Tournament an all-styles tournament? You could try entering that? The other options are the Kumite one that takes place on the big sort of skate ramp and there seem to be a few tournaments about that have a sort of mix of martial arts.

Politics man, pffft. Bummer

Lets not forget hans tournament! :pac:

OP politics in martial arts suck! Can you imagine if football had the same problems. It has ruined pro boxing in terms of champion recognition. You have to be a floyd mayweather before you are any kind of name globally.

Imo there should be one governing body in Ireland for all martial arts. A national umbrella, then you can have all the associations you want, but there is only 1 irish karate / kickboxing / tkd champion etc.
Even within styles... It would be nice to see an all ireland wado or shotokan tourn. The same should apply for the non competitive martial arts.

Doug Cartel · 03-05-2010 10:07AM

DaBrow wrote: »

I believe if clubs from each WKF Style of Karate (Wado, Goju, ****o & Shotokan) all competed against the likes of Tang Soo, Hapkido and Taekwondo. Only good things can happen

There's always MMA if they want to compete against each other.

pablohoney87 · 03-05-2010 10:35AM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

There's always MMA if they want to compete against each other.

Not to just go assuming but by some of the OP's other debate I dint think hes interested in doing MMA.

Doug Cartel · 03-05-2010 10:48AM

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Not to just go assuming but by some of the OP's other debate I dint think hes interested in doing MMA.

I know.

DaBrow · 03-05-2010 12:58PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

There's always MMA if they want to compete against each other.

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Not to just go assuming but by some of the OP's other debate I dint think hes interested in doing MMA.

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts...

It focuses purely on fighting.

This idea would have 4 areas: Demonstrations, Sparring, Weapons and Kata.

Furious-Dave · 03-05-2010 01:07PM

DaBrow wrote: »

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts...

It focuses purely on fighting.

This idea would have 4 areas: Demonstrations, Sparring, Weapons and Kata.

Actually, many people would argue that the "actual meaning" of Martial Arts IS fighting, and that sparring, weapons and kata, amongst all the other training practices, including the spiritual side, are simply means of training toward that end. Notice I left out demonstrations. These have no baring on the "actual meaning" of Martial Arts, and are as far removed from that "actual meaning" as you can get.

Why oh why oh does political rivalry still exist in Martial Arts??

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