Why oh why oh does political rivalry still exist in Martial Arts??

DaBrow

I'm writing this thread about a frustation that many people still seem to have. An area they get very annoyed about in Martial Arts; politics and rivalry.

I planned to suggest to my Chief Instructor the possibility of arranging a competition where we invite other WKF Karate Styles and the likes of Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido to compete against each other.

The purpose was to encourage friendly relations amongst different styles and show that rivalry and politics had no place in Martial Arts today...

I didn't get the chance to mention it... I discussed it with someone and they spoke with him and he just refused the idea. I didn't get a reason why or chance to discuss this properly, I spoke with a few people and they were very supportive of the idea.

I am leaving my club; not for this reason, but because I have to relocate. Although I do feel saddened that this insular mindset still exists today.

Politics is appropriate only when it comes to human moral decency in society and affairs of a nation... Not Marital Arts.

lawrencesummers

insecurity.

people like to be in their comfort zone, not have to challenge themselves or have to prove themselves outside their little circle.

DaBrow

lawrencesummers wrote: »

insecurity.

people like to be in their comfort zone, not have to challenge themselves or have to prove themselves outside their little circle.

Insecurity in times like these is a luxury that no-one can afford...

Martial Arts shouldn't be insular like it is.

rom

I thought that is what open comps are for.

DaBrow

rom wrote: »

I thought that is what open comps are for.

Who arranges these open Tournaments?

From what I understand it has to be organisations, the only open tournaments I've read about are still exclusive to one martial art but allow external clubs to enter.

Doug Cartel

You get politics in martial arts for the same reason you get politics in golf clubs and parents councils - it's just human nature.

I'm not even 100% sure if what you've described is political. It could be that he just doesn't want to organise a big tournament. If the idea was to have as inclusive a tournament as possible, then chances are it would get very hard to manage very quickly.

If you want to see some real nasty politics, look at the stuff that goes on within organisations.

DaBrow

Doug Cartel wrote: »

You get politics in martial arts for the same reason you get politics in golf clubs and parents councils - it's just human nature.

I'm not even 100% sure if what you've described is political. It could be that he just doesn't want to organise a big tournament. If the idea was to have as inclusive a tournament as possible, then chances are it would get very hard to manage very quickly.

If you want to see some real nasty politics, look at the stuff that goes on within organisations.

It appears to be political....

I didn't even get a chance to say that all that would be required was his permission for it to happen.

The Ideal Venue has been identified

Clubs of Styles contact Details have been collected

Sparring Details of each style have been identified

Insurance for the Event to happen

Officials from each style would be present

How much the event and extra equipment would cost e.g. Floormats

Identifying what sparring equipment is required for WKF, ITF, WTF, TSD & KHF Participants

How the tournament would be structured and planned...It would have oversight from instructors but the event would be planned and managed by senior rank students/ non-teaching dan grades.


He wouldn't have any heavy involvement at all... the students would do the work for him.

Doug Cartel

DaBrow wrote: »

It appears to be political....

I didn't even get a chance to say that all that would be required was his permission for it to happen.

The Ideal Venue has been identified

Clubs of Styles contact Details have been collected

Sparring Details of each style have been identified

Insurance for the Event to happen

Officials from each style would be present

How much the event and extra equipment would cost e.g. Floormats

How the tournament would be structured and planned...It would have oversight from instructors but the event would be planned and managed by senior rank students/ non-teaching dan grades.


He wouldn't have any heavy involvement at all... So the pressure is off him.

Well I don't know the guy, I don't know how much experience you have with organising and running tournaments, I don't know how much work he personally would have to put into it, and I don't know what commitments outside of martial arts the guy has, but personally I'd give him the benefit of the doubt here.

DaBrow

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Well I don't know the guy, I don't know how much experience you have with organising and running tournaments, I don't know how much work he personally would have to put into it, and I don't know what commitments outside of martial arts the guy has, but personally I'd give him the benefit of the doubt here.

The plans are in place... All that would be required is a re-evaluation and then they can be executed.

I've not personally organised any tournaments myself, but I am meticulous and detailed as a person.

His role would've been supervisory in the form of giving advice if we needed clarity over something... That is all.

Furious-Dave

If your own instructor is not giving it much thought then why not contact someone else? Like the people who organize the all styles Karate tournament.

As Doug said rivalry and politics are part of human nature. They will always be around in everything people do.

Doug Cartel

DaBrow wrote: »

The plans are in place... All that would be required is a re-evaluation and then they can be executed.

I've not personally organised any tournaments myself, but I am meticulous and detailed as a person.

His role would've been supervisory in the form of giving advice if we needed clarity over something... That is all.

So you've never organised a tournament before, and for your first one you want to have multiple organisations and compromise rules?

Your instructor's only role in this would be to pick up the pieces if (when) things go wrong?

... and you think he doesn't want to sign off on this for pure political reasons?

DaBrow

Doug Cartel wrote: »

So you've never organised a tournament before, and for your first one you want to have multiple organisations and compromise rules?

Your instructor's only role in this would be to pick up the pieces if (when) things go wrong?

... and you think he doesn't want to sign off on this for pure political reasons?

I've helped organise other events... Don't jump to conclusions.

The event would cater on a two-tier system... Participants competing against their own style and those that wish to compete against another style.

I would help plan it and execute it .. If there were any mistakes, I'd take the blame.

It would have been a joined event between ourselves and a university karate team.

No-one Else, I didn't get a chance to even say that.

Doug Cartel

DaBrow wrote: »

I've helped organise other events... Don't jump to conclusions.

Then when I asked you, you should have said this.

The event would cater on a two-tier system... Participants competing against their own style and those that wish to compete against another style.

I would help plan it and execute it .. If there were any mistakes, I'd take the blame.

Seriously, start small. Just look at the threads on here about the headaches people have running BJJ tournaments. That's one sport. You want to run what is equivalent to several tournaments at once.

No-one Else, I didn't get a chance to even say that.

Oh, I'm sorry.

DaBrow

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Seriously, start small. Just look at the threads on here about the headaches people have running BJJ tournaments. That's one sport. You want to run what is equivalent to several tournaments at once.

I don't think he was even keen on the idea of an open WKF Styles tournament either...

It is possible to group these arts under one roof... As long as you have effective planning.

The symbolic message of the idea was to show openess with friendly competing against each other.

Doug Cartel

DaBrow wrote: »

I don't think he was even keen on the idea of an open WKF Styles tournament either...

It is possible to group these arts under one roof... As long as you have effective planning.

The symbolic message of the idea was to show openess with friendly competing against each other.

Like I said before, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just down to him not being interested, and not part of some political machinations.

You pitched an idea to the guy and he didn't take it. These things happen. You can either throw the idea out, change it a bit and try again, or just hold on to it until some time in the future when conditions are more favourable.

DaBrow

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Like I said before, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just down to him not being interested, and not part of some political machinations.

You pitched an idea to the guy and he didn't take it. These things happen. You can either throw the idea out, change it a bit and try again, or just hold on to it until some time in the future when conditions are more favourable.

It wasn't pitched properly... I think I'll mention it to him again by correspondance when I have relocated.

I don't see how it can't be done and not benefit themselves.

Karate schools need to have a unique selling point in order to attract students; we are in desperate need of new adults in class.

95 people attended last years camp, this year 68 people attended and there are 400 members.

I've not noticed any new members since I joined last year.

Barry.Oglesby

Wasn't the All Valley Karate Tournament an all-styles tournament? You could try entering that? The other options are the Kumite one that takes place on the big sort of skate ramp and there seem to be a few tournaments about that have a sort of mix of martial arts.

Politics man, pffft. Bummer

Ug Lee

According to Aristotle, "Man is by nature a political animal".

You can't escape it. Better to acknowledge it and either partake in it or take steps to minimise its effect on you.

But I would argue that it is political rivalry which makes us (humankind) excel. If there was no political rivalry, maybe there would have been no original need for martial arts.

DaBrow

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Wasn't the All Valley Karate Tournament an all-styles tournament? You could try entering that? The other options are the Kumite one that takes place on the big sort of skate ramp and there seem to be a few tournaments about that have a sort of mix of martial arts.

Politics man, pffft. Bummer

That isn't a real tournament and also to add it would be a 12-hr flight to los Angeles.

Please... Let's be serious.

DaBrow

I don't understand why there can't be one event... to just put things aside for the greater good.

I'm not asking for full-blown integration, just something that encourages good relations and respect.

Not much to ask is it?

pablohoney87

DaBrow wrote: »

I don't understand why there can't be one event... to just put things aside for the greater good.

I'm not asking for full-blown integration, just something that encourages good relations and respect.

Not much to ask is it?

If you cant understand why there cant be why dont you just try and set up one yourself?

Furious-Dave

DaBrow wrote: »

I don't understand why there can't be one event... to just put things aside for the greater good.

I'm not asking for full-blown integration, just something that encourages good relations and respect.

Not much to ask is it?

Seriously, I think you need to just chill out for a while. You seem to have good ideas but you overreact when they get shot down on the first attempt. Have you even gone yourself to your instructor to talk about your idea? It may take talking to 10 different instructors before you find someone interested in making the event happen. But before you talk to anyone you need put together a presentation to help sell your idea. Doesn't ONAKAI do all styles Karate events? Why not talk to them?

siochain

there several open events on in Ireland, one of the bigest open tournaments in the world held in Dublin every march


http://www.irishopenonline.com/

there are two open events coming up

Carbury Martial Arts on 30/05
AKAI Open 04/07

http://www.kickboxingireland.ie/

Ug Lee

DaBrow wrote: »

I planned to suggest to my Chief Instructor the possibility of arranging a competition where we invite other WKF Karate Styles and the likes of Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido to compete against each other. The purpose was to encourage friendly relations amongst different styles and show that rivalry and politics had no place in Martial Arts today....

But do you think that having a competition between other WKF Karate Styles and the likes of Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido would solve the problem and encourage friendly relations?

DaBrow

Ug Lee wrote: »

But do you think that having a competition between other WKF Karate Styles and the likes of Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido would solve the problem and encourage friendly relations?

Yes, I believe it would.

I believe if clubs from each WKF Style of Karate (Wado, Goju, ****o & Shotokan) all competed against the likes of Tang Soo, Hapkido and Taekwondo. Only good things can happen

It would show how similar the styles are against one another and generate interaction... Like Respect and Greater Knowledge of what else exists.

Martial Arts shouldn't be political; bad things happen when things are insular all the time, particularly when it comes to competition. It creates an arrogant sense of superiority with the student over other fighting systems...

Most Karate events are entirely exclusive to one style... The same with Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Hapkido.

I remember a very influencial TKD Chief Instructor who was one of the leading UK Olympic TKD Coaches say that Karate was outdated...

This mentality is dangerous and the fact it is wide-spread doesn't do Martial Arts a great service

joepenguin

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Wasn't the All Valley Karate Tournament an all-styles tournament? You could try entering that? The other options are the Kumite one that takes place on the big sort of skate ramp and there seem to be a few tournaments about that have a sort of mix of martial arts.

Politics man, pffft. Bummer

Lets not forget hans tournament! :pac:

OP politics in martial arts suck! Can you imagine if football had the same problems. It has ruined pro boxing in terms of champion recognition. You have to be a floyd mayweather before you are any kind of name globally.

Imo there should be one governing body in Ireland for all martial arts. A national umbrella, then you can have all the associations you want, but there is only 1 irish karate / kickboxing / tkd champion etc.
Even within styles... It would be nice to see an all ireland wado or shotokan tourn. The same should apply for the non competitive martial arts.

Doug Cartel

DaBrow wrote: »

I believe if clubs from each WKF Style of Karate (Wado, Goju, ****o & Shotokan) all competed against the likes of Tang Soo, Hapkido and Taekwondo. Only good things can happen

There's always MMA if they want to compete against each other.

pablohoney87

Doug Cartel wrote: »

There's always MMA if they want to compete against each other.

Not to just go assuming but by some of the OP's other debate I dint think hes interested in doing MMA.

Doug Cartel

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Not to just go assuming but by some of the OP's other debate I dint think hes interested in doing MMA.

I know.

DaBrow

Doug Cartel wrote: »

There's always MMA if they want to compete against each other.

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Not to just go assuming but by some of the OP's other debate I dint think hes interested in doing MMA.

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts...

It focuses purely on fighting.

This idea would have 4 areas: Demonstrations, Sparring, Weapons and Kata.

Furious-Dave

DaBrow wrote: »

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts...

It focuses purely on fighting.

This idea would have 4 areas: Demonstrations, Sparring, Weapons and Kata.

Actually, many people would argue that the "actual meaning" of Martial Arts IS fighting, and that sparring, weapons and kata, amongst all the other training practices, including the spiritual side, are simply means of training toward that end. Notice I left out demonstrations. These have no baring on the "actual meaning" of Martial Arts, and are as far removed from that "actual meaning" as you can get.

Doug Cartel

DaBrow wrote: »

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts...

It focuses purely on fighting.

Regardless of whether or not this is the case, it would provide a forum where you all could compete against each other - if that's what you really wanted.

pablohoney87

DaBrow wrote: »

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts...

I would argue against that. MMA can focus on what ever you want it too. I compete and train in mma and i believe in the spiritual side of martial arts too. I meditate as part of training and do many things as part of my mma training that are not just about fighting.
Like any martial art though the fight is really what will prove yourself as a martial artist.

yomchi

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Like any martial art though the fight is really what will prove yourself as a martial artist.

Or having the ability to avoid a fight, and still look cool :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow

joepenguin

I think mma wuold be a good shout. Maybe not against people who practice purely for mma cause other martial artist would have to get to grips with what they can and cant use etc, but against each other with some mma refs etc. It would give someone from say tkd a chance to fight someone from kung fu on an even playing field. You could always try the irish cup in june where they have forms self defence and weapons. They have sparring too but its point fighting which is open to all styles but thats as specialised as you get so you would really need to get used to the rules and how to go about it.
Someone mentioned the irish open as well which is one of the best tourns in the world of its kind.
OP you could always get some kickboxing refs in to officiate an inter style tourn between clubs.

yomchi

Paddy White used to run tournaments like these back in the early 90's. They attracted all different styles. I remember fighting a MT guy in one round then a Tai Chi/Chinese boxing guy in the second.

In fairness, I can't see many people tying into this concept of competition these days. People are too busy training and competing in their systems.

Ug Lee

DaBrow wrote: »

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts....

Just to back up what other people have said, there is no one "actual meaning" of martial arts. If there is no agreement between martial arts as to what the "actual meaning" of martial arts is, then the statement above is,,,,meaningless.

corkma

a big allstyle compeetiton could be a nightmare to run. there are always instructors who turn up to competitions and seem to intent on arguing with the organisers about everything. before you even try to bring other styles in you find that politics are present. the best way to deal with it is ignore. if you want to build relationships just go and train in different clubs.

cletus

DaBrow wrote: »

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts...It focuses purely on fighting.

I would have said that the actual meaning of martial arts is fighting.

edit* already said (but I stand by it)

Tim_Murphy

DaBrow wrote: »

MMA doesn't focus on the actual meaning of Martial Arts...

It focuses purely on fighting.

This idea would have 4 areas: Demonstrations, Sparring, Weapons and Kata.

lol :rolleyes: Could this be yet another 'traditional' martial artist who hasn't a bulls notion what he is talking about?

DaBrow

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

lol :rolleyes: Could this be yet another 'traditional' martial artist who hasn't a bulls notion what he is talking about?

I know what I'm talking about...

Martial Arts isn't purely about fighting; it is about learning to deal with conflict (fighting) and the avoidance of conflict (self-control) along with the knowledge of how to put their skills into use if the situation ever arises.

Doug Cartel

DaBrow wrote: »

Martial Arts isn't purely about fighting; it is about learning to deal with conflict (fighting) and the avoidance of conflict (self-control) along with the knowledge of how to put their skills into use if the situation ever arises.

If you want to learn about conflict resolution, there are plenty of courses you can go on that will teach you this skill much more effectively than any karate class.

If you want spirituality go to a church.

Martial arts is about punching people in the face and/or choking them out (and and looking good while you do it). Anything else is a secondary benefit.

All that dedication, self-control, etc. stuff? Rugby, football or any team sport will cover these. Actually they'll do it better because they include teamwork, and putting the needs of others ahead of your own.

Tim_Murphy

DaBrow wrote: »

I know what I'm talking about....

Do you now? How much time have you spent training in MMA gyms? How many MMA competitors and participants do you know?

DaBrow wrote: »

Martial Arts isn't purely about fighting; it is about learning to deal with conflict (fighting) and the avoidance of conflict (self-control) along with the knowledge of how to put their skills into use if the situation ever arises.

Most martial arts is goofy nonsense so for most of them I wouldn't say it 'isn't purely about fighting' I would say it isn't about fighting at all.

da-bres

DaBrow wrote: »

I know what I'm talking about...

Martial Arts isn't purely about fighting; it is about learning to deal with conflict (fighting) and the avoidance of conflict (self-control) along with the knowledge of how to put their skills into use if the situation ever arises.

Avoidance of conflict = Running skills! negotiation skills!
Martial Arts = Fighting

The martial arts you talk about are based 100% on extorting naive minds. Yes they have there benefits, walking around in a red and black suit with dragons makes you a much better fighter...

I think its safe to say most mma, bjj practitioners were at some stage paying ridicules fees for insane instruction. Then we saw the light!! take the red pill! WAKE UP!:)

Im saying this out of experience..

traditional martial arts are great for kids though, great for confidence building, helped me loads in that aspect... the fees my mother had to fork out though... my poor mammy:(

Doug Cartel

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Most martial arts is goofy nonsense so for most of them I wouldn't say it 'isn't purely about fighting' I would say it isn't about fighting at all.

da-bres wrote:

The martial arts you talk about are based 100% on extorting naive minds. Yes they have there benefits, walking around in a red and black suit with dragons makes you a much better fighter...

I think its safe to say most mma, bjj practitioners were at some stage paying ridicules fees for insane instruction. Then we saw the light!! take the red pill! WAKE UP!

Well, I wasn't really going for full on traditional martial arts bashing. (After all, I do TMA myself.)

I was more trying to draw parallels with other sports/activities. There are plenty of football clubs/teams that were set up to give kids something to do and teach them good values. Same with most other sports.

There are also a number of clubs that are purely about winning, putting bums on seats and bringing in the sponsorship money. So they have different objectives, but nobody would get away with saying that either weren't "real football" - they're both primarily about two teams trying to win a game. Why should martial arts be any different?

Tim_Murphy

Edit...

pablohoney87

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Not sure what point you are trying to make.

You haven't answered my questions by the way.

Wrong guy tim. You asked DaBrow not Doug.

Ug Lee

This is not against you, only your statement.

DaBrow wrote: »

Martial Arts isn't purely about fighting; it is about learning to deal with conflict (fighting) and the avoidance of conflict (self-control) along with the knowledge of how to put their skills into use if the situation ever arises.

You present this statement as fact. Can you provide a reference? If you said that Karate style xyz is about dealing with conflict, then I might agree. But you cannot say the same about martial arts in general.

DaBrow

Ug Lee wrote: »

This is not against you, only your statement.



You present this statement as fact. Can you provide a reference? If you said that Karate style xyz is about dealing with conflict, then I might agree. But you cannot say the same about martial arts in general.

Wado Ryu Karate is known as the way of Peace... I have studied it for years and we have been always taught to avoid conflict, but be prepared for it if it is unavoidable.

It has elements of Jiu Jitsu included in its teaching but also the fierceness of shotokan...

Out of the traditional styles, it really does aim at ending the fight quickly.

Ug Lee

DaBrow wrote: »

Wado Ryu Karate is known as the way of Peace... I have studied it for years and we have been always taught to avoid conflict, but be prepared for it if it is unavoidable.

It has elements of Jiu Jitsu included in its teaching but also the fierceness of shotokan...

Out of the traditional styles, it really does aim at ending the fight quickly.

And thats fine and I respect it. You could talk then about the actual meaning of Wado Ryu and if it is somehow lacking in MMA, thats fine as they are unrelated. But what MMA lacks in some areas, it makes up for in others. The most common element which martial arts have in common is the martial part. If there is any true or actual meaning to martial arts then that is it.

Tim_Murphy

DaBrow wrote: »

Wado Ryu Karate is known as the way of Peace... I have studied it for years and we have been always taught to avoid conflict, but be prepared for it if it is unavoidable.

It has elements of Jiu Jitsu included in its teaching but also the fierceness of shotokan...

Out of the traditional styles, it really does aim at ending the fight quickly.

I love the 'wisdom' of 'traditional' martial arts. Most people will run a mile from any kind of conflict, they don't need to be "taught to avoid" it.

You still haven't answered my questions...

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Do you now? How much time have you spent training in MMA gyms? How many MMA competitors and participants do you know?