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Irish Rail exposé in Tribune

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    #182
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Victor wrote: »
    Couldn't do that - they've closed the Curragh sidings. :pac:
    then let the army blow them up in stations like kildare newbridge etc level all the irish rail junk including those MkIII coaches. they must be the worst coaches ever, rarely heated and when they were the heating was usually stuck on, dirty seats and uncomfortable, rough ride, regular breakdowns due to either coach problems or loco issues, door problems etc etc a refit would do nothing for these awful coaches except waste a lot more cash from the irish rail coffers!


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    #183
    Ham'nd'egger
    Registered Users Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. In the mid 90s British Rail Engineering had already produced a report on the state of the Irish Network. Knockcroghery then prompted the funding of On-Track 2000, backed by European funds. In essence the Network was already being upgraded in terms of safety before the SRR was even commissioned. So I'd refute any claim that the Government were attempting to use the SRR as a execution warrant for the network.

    The network was being worked on in places before SRR as it was known to all it was unsafe for any level of speed or in the case of Dublin-Cork-Belfast it was renewed regardless. SRR was commissioned as the dressing down report designed to finish regional lines off but it turned into a paper exercise that showed "something" was being done after it turned out that it confirmed internal report after report that it was cost effective to do what was done; ergo to say it was a book balancing exercise with PR value on top.

    However the level of investment was for mere renewal and not improvement overall, you cannot blame anybody but central government for this.
    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I didn't pass anything off as Irish Rail lip service. I said that Irish Rail did not use favourable Government attitude to bring the network up to a 21st century standard. To back that up I cited agreement from Government to fund a DART tunnel.

    The tunnel represents the first genuine new railway infrastructural project the State has ever empowered CIE or it's predecessors to build even if it's 40 years late; who offered lip service on this for years and years?
    DWCommuter wrote: »
    In my opinion this is as tired an argument as Irish Rails decades of under investment mantra and only serves to promote the same worn out carry on. Yes there was time (and we are returning to it) that Irish Rail were justified in thinking that way. However I am talking about an economic period during which unprecedented investment was made in the rail network and I stand by my opinion that Irish Rail failed to use it to maximum advantage for its customers. The culture of the company in areas of poor communication with Government and being engineering driven rather than customer driven have been pointed out in both the SRR (2003) and Attley (2001). Management failed to address this and in so doing were left in a situation whereby the status quo remained and the real potential of the network was not met.

    Ministers and managers can and do change but the desk Humphries that read him the files don't and the Joe Meaghers and Dick Fearns know this all too well. Nobody says CIE is perfect inside from a communications end but this isn't about the internals, it's about their externals. And the fact is, over the years if they know are on the brink of being closed there is little interest in staff modernising plans (Which they still have done) and when there is little interest shown to them from upstairs there will be feck all communications except when things look like they will go belly up.

    Mind you, given that every other wing of the transport network meets the same wall of inaction and disinterest, it shows us where the real fault may lie.


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    #184
    KC61
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Victor wrote: »
    Surely, in particular on the Waterford route, there was scope for one morning train to be a Mark 3 and the other a 6 x 22000, whatever stopping pattern is used. Or to have Mark 3s (with proper first class, even have two first classes) on the direct services to Limerick and Tralee, with even fewer stops and using the freed up 22000s to serve stops in the commuter belt. So, the KRP could be put to its full(er) use now, but it isn't. The track (re)laying could have been done somewhere else where there are lower speed limits, which would deliver results within a month of the re-lay.

    I would concur.

    If and it is an "if" the Mark 3 stock were to be returned to normal operations, they would have to be deployed on services where there would be minimal impact on other trains.

    This is because they have slower acceleration/deceleration characteristics than the 22K sets. Therefore they could only be deployed on an early morning service to Dublin and late evening service from Dublin on the single track routes to Galway or Waterford as otherwise they would conflict with other movements. So, the Athlone commuter might be a suitable option.

    Alternatively they could be used on the Dublin/Limerick route or as standby on Dublin/Cork.


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    #185
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    then let the army blow them up in stations like kildare newbridge etc level all the irish rail junk including those MkIII coaches. they must be the worst coaches ever, rarely heated and when they were the heating was usually stuck on, dirty seats and uncomfortable, rough ride, regular breakdowns due to either coach problems or loco issues, door problems etc etc a refit would do nothing for these awful coaches except waste a lot more cash from the irish rail coffers!

    Oooh, all that anti-MK3 talk is going to be seen as a declaration of war by some here. :D


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    #186
    kormak
    Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭kormak


    monument wrote: »
    Not that that sensationalist?

    Many have abandoned using Northern line commuter trains, but even with a cheaper and apparently better coach service overcrowding is still an issue on the train service?

    I know people up along the Northern line commuter. Sure there are problems with trains, but it seems to be a pastime to overstate things abou the trains up there. I keep getting told trains will not run on time, but every time I use the train to get out there it's on time or within a min or two from being on time. These kind of myths and exaggerations that are spread around will just push people away from using public transport at anytime, and they won't do anything to help solve real problems.

    I use the Drogheda - Dublin train every day and I can safely say you sir are talking out of your @r$e!
    if it didn't stop on the tracks for no apparent reason and actually arrived at my destination (lansdowne rd.) on the actual time advertised I would be completely shocked.
    do not shoot down opinions of northern line commuters until you properly feel their pain not just "imagine" it.


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    #187
    TC cork
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭TC cork


    services to & from Cork have improved. Ticket prices are shocking


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    #188
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    paulm17781 wrote: »
    Oooh, all that anti-MK3 talk is going to be seen as a declaration of war by some here. :D
    It's more puzzling than angering, because it is assumes the Mk4s are immune from the effects of insufficient care and maintenance. I was on a 16 year old carriage last Friday and it was in good shape - a little rough around the edges and dated interior maybe - but it was clean and everything worked. In two years or so I might be riding the same train, two tonnes lighter (with the unused tilting gear removed) and with new interior, lighting and systems, and will be happier to do so that the notionally newer ex-Nightstar trains with their awkward layout.


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    #189
    Ham'nd'egger
    Registered Users Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    TC cork wrote: »
    services to & from Cork have improved. Ticket prices are shocking

    Yes, how dare they offer €20 return on some trips; rip off that it is:rolleyes:

    The price debates been done 100 times here BTW.


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    #190
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Hamndegger wrote: »
    Yes, how dare they offer €20 return on some trips; rip off that it is:rolleyes:
    When no-one wants to travel. My wife was quoted €101 return recently.


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    #191
    Ham'nd'egger
    Registered Users Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    JHMEG wrote: »
    When no-one wants to travel. My wife was quoted €101 return recently.

    Pray tell for what journey?


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    #192
    KC61
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    JHMEG wrote: »
    When no-one wants to travel. My wife was quoted €101 return recently.

    For goodness sake - the time that cheap fares ought to apply IS where there are spare seats - the company is trying to stimulate demand on off-peak trains!!

    I am assuming the EUR 101 was for 1st Class? It had to be.


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    #193
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    I think the ticket prices on the Dublin to Cork route is the only thing that IÉ have got right on that line. Cheap and affordable when you travel off-peak and much cheaper than our UK counterparts at peak times.

    Just don't try to travel anywhere further than Kent Station or Hesuton Station on the one ticket though, the whole ticketing system will break if you do so:rolleyes:!

    Foggy_Lad, were you ever on a refurbished MK3? I can assure you the British TOCs didn't not waste money on them.

    Heck even the Welsh Assembley Governement members travel from North to South Wales on refurbished MK2 stock, much nicer than the modern railcars:pac:.


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    #194
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    KC61 wrote: »
    For goodness sake - the time that cheap fares ought to apply IS where there are spare seats - the company is trying to stimulate demand on off-peak trains!!

    I am assuming the EUR 101 was for 1st Class? It had to be.

    Dublin-Cork return, travelling Fri & Sun. Can't remember if it was 1st class: it might have been all that was left, or all she could reserve. Ryanair got the business in the end at around €60 return iirc.


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    #195
    KC61
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Dublin-Cork return, travelling Fri & Sun. Can't remember if it was 1st class: it might have been all that was left, or all she could reserve. Ryanair got the business in the end at around €60 return iirc.

    It had to be 1st Class - the standard class fare on Friday and Sunday (depending on which train you choose) is maximum EUR 72 online.

    Again - it pays to check all the trains, as there are always EUR 10 and EUR 20 fares on sale but if they are all sold out then there's not a lot anyone can do!


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    #196
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Victor wrote: »
    Are we talking about he same thing? The morning services from Waterford to Dublin?

    No, we were not talking about the same thing. I got mixed up about where you were talking about and then some-how also started using the name of the place you were talking about to refer to somewhere else :o


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    #197
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    paulm17781 wrote: »
    Oooh, all that anti-MK3 talk is going to be seen as a declaration of war by some here. :D
    i am declaring war on the eejits that would settle for these uncomfortable noisy unheated smelly carriages with their kidney killing static armrests
    BenShermin wrote: »
    Foggy_Lad, were you ever on a refurbished MK3? I can assure you the British TOCs didn't not waste money on them.

    Heck even the Welsh Assembley Governement members travel from North to South Wales on refurbished MK2 stock, much nicer than the modern railcars:pac:.
    how many of these refurbished carriages are operational in ireland? please stop talking about what england or canada or other countries are doing unless there are concrete plans to do similar here!

    these are old carriages and the interiors would need to be completly gutted including the seating, and should be scrapped in favour of newer more suitable carriages/railcars as the changing around of the locomotive is just too wasteful of time and staff rescources to ever be economical!


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    #198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    these are old carriages and the interiors would need to be completly gutted including the seating, and should be scrapped in favour of newer more suitable carriages/railcars as the changing around of the locomotive is just too wasteful of time and staff rescources to ever be economical!

    The Mk4s have already proven unsuitable for the task, the ride quality is appauling compared to a Mk3. These aren't "old" carriages, scrapping them is an absolute waste of money and resources. Being locomotive hauled doesn't have to be a problem, we have 10 201s doing nothing and these could be used to top and tail the sets. Again, if they can do it in the UK we can do it here.


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    #199
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    It's amusing to me how the same people who are berating the WRC (a project IE didn't want to do) are thrashing IE for not running trains that would be empty on the Kildare Route Project?

    The KRP will be there for years so to claim the investment is 'wasted' is gibberish. Passenger numbers have fallen off a cliff so why put on extra trains with very few passengers on them?


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    #200
    lord lucan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    Karsini wrote: »
    The Mk4s have already proven unsuitable for the task, the ride quality is appauling compared to a Mk3. These aren't "old" carriages, scrapping them is an absolute waste of money and resources. Being locomotive hauled doesn't have to be a problem, we have 10 201s doing nothing and these could be used to top and tail the sets. Again, if they can do it in the UK we can do it here.

    If i had the choice of travelling on any coaching stock that's run on this island over the years i'd choose the MKIII's every time. Far superior imo to anything that came before and has come since.

    The only reason i'm doing the IRRS gig on Saturday is the chance to go for a spin in a set of MKIII's hauled by a loco!:)


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    #201
    popebenny16
    Registered Users Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    There was nothing stopping IE refurbishing the Mark threes - they are at mid life refurbishment after all. If IE were to apply such logic they would have scraped the original DART fleet instead of having them refurbished at the same time.

    If IE have an objection to refubishing the Mark 3's, and declaring that they, as a class, ore not modern, outdated, not suitable - then why do they propose refubishing some of them for the Enterprise service?

    The reality of why these carriages were got rid of with undue haste has nothing to do with the reasons outlined. Maybe it was an easy way to kick the unions in the bollocks and get rid of unwanted staff, maybe it was simply boys playing with toys and enjoying the chance to have their own Hornby Set. Maybe its a mixture of the two, but the argument that they are not modern is given lie to by the enterprise idea and, of course, the idea that they are up for sale. Sure, who would want such rubbish??

    Then there is the old "we cant use these trains, they have been out of service for over a year (ncluding the emergency back ups on the Cork line) and therefore they would have to pass all sorts of safety tests and clearances to work again" line. Well, the IRRS tour blows that oen out of the water too.

    At a time when we are short of trains, and at a time when instead of actually fighting their courner with the Department, we get the usual roll over and show them your micky approach to their masters and at the same time the bullying, aggressive, nasty and spin approach to their critics.

    That train running exposes all the spin.

    Oh I think the Tribune Atricles so far are just great. But then again, I would say that.


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    #202
    KC61
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    these are old carriages and the interiors would need to be completly gutted including the seating, and should be scrapped in favour of newer more suitable carriages/railcars as the changing around of the locomotive is just too wasteful of time and staff rescources to ever be economical!

    I don't think anyone is arguing that if the Mark 3 stock were to be kept in service for a lengthy period of time, then yes they would need a complete overhaul. However that may well be cheaper than buying new trains especially if they were converted to push/pull operation.

    However, we currently have a situation where one train every week is cancelled due to a lack of rolling stock (1530 Heuston/Galway between Athlone and Galway) and the passengers put on a bus, and on others particularly in Mayo passengers are frequently being bussed due to the fact that the existing trains cannot cope.

    It is on that pretext that I am making the case that at least one if not two Mark 3 sets should be pressed back into service to free up sufficient stock to stop this happening, until the next batch of 22K sets is delivered.


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    #203
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    how many of these refurbished carriages are operational in ireland? please stop talking about what england or canada or other countries are doing unless there are concrete plans to do similar here!
    So we've made a stupid mistake but we can't change the plan by learning from experiences in other countries?


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    #204
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,478 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    So failing using them why did they not sell them to the Brits (or elsewhere) rather than chop them up?

    I think some were sold at least


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    #205
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    KC61 wrote: »
    we currently have a situation where one train every week is cancelled due to a lack of rolling stock (1530 Heuston/Galway between Athlone and Galway)
    They could cancel the 1430 Galway-Limerick and send it to Athlone :D
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    So failing using them why did they not sell them to the Birts (or elsewhere) rather than chop them up? I think some were sold at least
    Aside from the different gauge there would also be different carriage voltage issues with BR generators. I think there was talk of a sale to Bosnia at one point. Obviously the whole fleet couldn't have been kept - among other reasons the relocation of 4 x genvans to Enterprise is a good thing considering how much damage was done by main engine HEP over the years.


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    #206
    KC61
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Some were beyond economic repair following an incident in Waterford and were scrapped while some of the Mark 3A International set were sold and the rest scrapped - these were a unique set of coaches that in fairness were at the end of their lives.


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    #207
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,777 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I seem to recall some years back that Irish Rail was moving to a fixed timetables, i.e. same pattern of service every weekday with no extra trains on Monday mornings and Friday evenings, and no special trains such as GAAs concert specials etc), and certainly, going with a DMU only fleet (with an attendant need to run a small number of them all the time) instead of coaches (cheaper per unit and, from a capital allocation viewpoint, more practical to keep for semi-regular peak needs).

    So it came as no surprise then that we have this silly farce of Irish Rail running a 6 coach 22k train to Athlone on a Friday evening with a half-baked plan of sending half the train to Mayo and the other half to Galway only to end up having to bus everyone to Galway because the train was oversubsribed with Mayo bound pax alone. Pathetically predictable really.


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    #208
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lord lucan wrote: »
    The only reason i'm doing the IRRS gig on Saturday is the chance to go for a spin in a set of MKIII's hauled by a loco!:)

    Same here. Might see you there. :)


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    #209
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    KC61 wrote: »
    Some were beyond economic repair following an incident in Waterford and were scrapped while some of the Mark 3A International set were sold and the rest scrapped - these were a unique set of coaches that in fairness were at the end of their lives.
    I would have thought the 3As had the most life left - weren't they the youngest in the fleet (1988 build, only bought by IE in 1994)? Who bought those that were sold?


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    #210
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    dowlingm wrote: »
    I would have thought the 3As had the most life left - weren't they the youngest in the fleet (1988 build, only bought by IE in 1994)? Who bought those that were sold?

    They probably would have some specialised parts compared to the standard mk3s though. If a company is going to keep part of a fleet it makes sense to keep the standard ones, that way it limits the amount of spare parts you need to keep. Otherwise you'd end up with keeping a wider range of spares to suit different carriages.


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    #211
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Transportuser09 wrote: »
    They probably would have some specialised parts compared to the standard mk3s though. If a company is going to keep part of a fleet it makes sense to keep the standard ones, that way it limits the amount of spare parts you need to keep. Otherwise you'd end up with keeping a wider range of spares to suit different carriages.

    They had non-standard air conditioning and bogies at the very least. Two, 6203 and 6205, were sold to the Killashee House Hotel in Naas who also have Cravens coach 1558.


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