Anyone else think Ryanair right not to pay board and keep for stranded passengers?

Xcellor · 21-04-2010 04:02PM

Ryanair are obligated to follow the directives set out by the EU. If they don't they shouldn't fly in the EU.

If you are stranded in a foreign country:

1) You may not speak the language
2) You may not have credit cards with high limits on
3) You may not have any friends or family to rely on
4) You may be travelling with a family and need to look after them, young kids etc??
5) You are not in the position to know which hotels exist, the best prices etc.
6) You are most likely tired, exhausted in some cases, you are stressed and in a really difficult position without being denied your basic passenger rights.

I think this directive/law is excellent. Airlines should bear the responsibility of due care.

Despite wanting to make air travel like taking the bus or a train, it is NOT the same. A missed plane trip can leave you thousands of miles away from your home a missed bus trip in most cases will be an inconvenience but won't leave you stranded.

If you dont want to follow the rules that are required to operate an airline don't operate an airline. If you want to run a bus service, run a bus service not an airline.

X

Saganist · 21-04-2010 04:06PM

No

Xcellor wrote: »

Ryanair are obligated to follow the directives set out by the EU. If they don't they shouldn't fly in the EU.

If you are stranded in a foreign country:

1) You may not speak the language
2) You may not have credit cards with high limits on
3) You may not have any friends or family to rely on
4) You may be travelling with a family and need to look after them, young kids etc??
5) You are not in the position to know which hotels exist, the best prices etc.
6) You are most likely tired, exhausted in some cases, you are stressed and in a really difficult position without being denied your basic passenger rights.

I think this directive/law is excellent. Airlines should bear the responsibility of due care.

Despite wanting to make air travel like taking the bus or a train, it is NOT the same. A missed plane trip can leave you thousands of miles away from your home a missed bus trip in most cases will be an inconvenience but won't leave you stranded.

If you dont want to follow the rules that are required to operate an airline don't operate an airline. If you want to run a bus service, run a bus service not an airline.

X

You put it much better than I did..

If O'Leary thinks hes gonna squirm out of this one then he can think again !

jprender · 21-04-2010 04:09PM

Ryanair should have read the Terms and conditions.

Tough Luck on them.

no1beemerfan · 21-04-2010 04:15PM

Xcellor wrote: »

If you dont want to follow the rules that are required to operate an airline don't operate an airline. If you want to run a bus service, run a bus service not an airline.

X

This law only came in in the last few months (and I'm sure they meant causes the airline caused)......also the airlines were around a lot longer.

So you'd be totally happy to pay for people to stay somewhere, pay for their breakfast, lunch, tea etc for something you didn't do/cause????

Saganist · 21-04-2010 04:16PM

No

CAR responds to Ryanair

http://tinyurl.com/y3p4duj

funkyjebus · 21-04-2010 04:24PM

right in not paying. they offers flights not accom and as such will refund the cost of flight. anyone who think otherwise is a cheap bstrd who didnt bother with insurance

Saganist · 21-04-2010 04:28PM

No

no1beemerfan wrote: »

This law only came in in the last few months (and I'm sure they meant causes the airline caused)......also the airlines were around a lot longer.

So you'd be totally happy to pay for people to stay somewhere, pay for their breakfast, lunch, tea etc for something you didn't do/cause????

Say a flight was cancelled because of bad weather. The airline is obliged to provide due care because of that.

Its not the airlines fault that there was bad weather but they are still responsible for your well being. i.e. Accommodation and meals and transfers etc.

This event is a "weather event" so the same rules apply.

Its the scale that has O'Learys knickers in a twist !

Saganist · 21-04-2010 04:30PM

No

funkyjebus wrote: »

right in not paying. they offers flights not accom and as such will refund the cost of flight. anyone who think otherwise is a cheap bstrd who didnt bother with insurance

I think you'll find that most people who are stranded and have "cover" have found out that actually their cover doesn't cover what has happened in the last week !!

Is that ironic ? Cover that doesnt cover you ?

:D

jesus_thats_gre · 21-04-2010 04:34PM

Now I appreciate the reason for it (before any tool starts shouting act of god at me) but I don't understand how airlines are being forced to cover something that is out of their control but travel insurance companies, who's services me avail of to, amongst others, protect us in cases of curtailment or cancellation, are essentially allowed to wipe their hands completely of the mess. It just doesn't make sense to me at all..

Airlines are compelled to provide the cover but travel insurance companies can just say meh.

no1beemerfan · 21-04-2010 04:35PM

Saganist wrote: »

I think you'll find that most people who are stranded and have "cover" have found out that actually their cover doesn't cover what has happened in the last week !!

Is that ironic ? Cover that doesnt cover you ? :D

So how come your not giving out about these insurance companies???

Why should Ryanair etc have to cover then???

johnnyjb · 21-04-2010 04:38PM

MaybeLogic wrote: »

'Acts of the Gods' not covered.

Whats the point in insurance so,or am i being greedy.Act of god is still an accident.I crash my car into someone and claim god told me to do it.Wonder will i get away with it:rolleyes:

Xcellor · 21-04-2010 04:44PM

no1beemerfan wrote: »

So how come your not giving out about these insurance companies???

Why should Ryanair etc have to cover then???

I think both airlines + insurance companies have responsibility. Personally I am out of pocket by a couple of hundred euros. I paid for a premium holiday insurance package and paid extra for insurance against cancellations. Didn't do me any good. After a brief call to insurer to find out how to put a claim through I was told "Act of God - not insurable..."

The long and short of this is each airline has to abide by the laws set down by the regulatory authorities. I don't hold ryanair responsible for the volcano problems etc but I take exception to the fact they are trying to sidestep their responsibility.

Perhaps this regulation needs to be updated... But the average Joe Soap and his family should not be left stranded while this is sorted out.

lion_bar · 21-04-2010 04:47PM

i think that the practicality of this EU regulation needs to be looked at. it's fine if one airplane with 100 people can't fly and people need to be accomodated, but where were Ryanair & all the other airlines supposed to actually find the hotels to accomodate all the flyers?

I think M O'L was saying that they'll pay reasonable expenses. his definition is reasonable = your airfare.

scottyboy · 21-04-2010 04:51PM

No

Can anyone define "Act of God" to an atheist?

Biggins · 21-04-2010 04:51PM

No

rossie1977 wrote: »

yes when the airlines themselves are at fault for said delay, however in this case all the airlines were ready to go but the airport(s) is/are shut, thus surely absolving the airlines from any fault

Well apparently this is NOT the case under current Eu law - and the aviation lawyers on Monday night re-affirmed this on the Pat Kenny show.

There is no "absolving" - the Eu was/is very clear about this apparently after much haggling with the airlines prior to the legal statues being confirmed into actual law.

Saganist · 21-04-2010 04:52PM

No

no1beemerfan wrote: »

So how come your not giving out about these insurance companies???

Why should Ryanair etc have to cover then???

Because insurance companies clearly state in their policies that they dont cover "acts of god", its what you would expect from an insurance company, they're all the same.. They'll do anything to prevent paying out and the "act of god" umbrella is quite handy for them and well within their rights to do it..

My beef with Ryanair is that they, last week, when all this started, made all their passengers aware of their rights on their website. i.e. you will be reimbursed for accommodation meals etc. and now a week later they want to re-write the rules because it doesn't suit them...

Well I'm sorry, that just doesn't wash with me. If O'Leary had of come out on day 1 and said. "Listen I know what the law is regarding duty of care but all you stranded passengers will have to find your own way home and we will give you a refund"... Did he do that ? Hell no..

He waited until now after thousands of people are down thousands of euro before deciding to say "F YOU, your not getting nothing from us bar a refund" Thats what gets to me and its typical of Ryanair and O'Leary and if he thinks he going to get away with it he has another thing coming.

funkyjebus · 21-04-2010 05:03PM

Saganist wrote: »

I think you'll find that most people who are stranded and have "cover" have found out that actually their cover doesn't cover what has happened in the last week !!

Is that ironic ? Cover that doesnt cover you ? :D

wrong. only rsa are holding out at the moment. they are trying to rely on a particular exclusion of service withdrawl by port / aviation authority. howvever it has been argued that the intention of that excluson ( war / civil commotion) is not applicable in this sitution.so we don't antisipate themholdingthatstanceformuchonger. so if you bought off any major ins company regulted i roi you will be fine. however if you went real cheap an bought of some internet noname. you get what you paid for.

funkyjebus · 21-04-2010 05:05PM

Saganist wrote: »

Because insurance companies clearly state in their policies that they dont cover "acts of god", its what you would expect from an insurance company, they're all the same.. They'll do anything to prevent paying out and the "act of god" umbrella is quite handy for them and well within their rights to do it..

My beef with Ryanair is that they, last week, when all this started, made all their passengers aware of their rights on their website. i.e. you will be reimbursed for accommodation meals etc. and now a week later they want to re-write the rules because it doesn't suit them...

Well I'm sorry, that just doesn't wash with me. If O'Leary had of come out on day 1 and said. "Listen I know what the law is regarding duty of care but all you stranded passengers will have to find your own way home and we will give you a refund"... Did he do that ? Hell no..

He waited until now after thousands of people are down thousands of euro before deciding to say "F YOU, your not getting nothing from us bar a refund" Thats what gets to me and its typical of Ryanair and O'Leary and if he thinks he going to get away with it he has another thing coming.

where the hell are you getting your info from. nearly all ins companies have publicly stated that they will treat this as adverse weather which is covered. some people will believe any crap they hear in the wind

Lone Stone · 21-04-2010 05:07PM

I think the people affected should be taken care of by there governments not an airline, how is it the airline's fault a volcano went kablamo. Its a countries duty to take care of its citizens.

PeakOutput · 21-04-2010 05:08PM

aer lingus guy was just on newstalk they basically agree with o'leary that the law was not made for situations like these

i reckon the airlines will all join together and fight this in court and that will mean no compensation until the case is heard which could drag on for quite a while

not to mind the fact they will probably win

funkyjebus · 21-04-2010 05:12PM

Lone Stone wrote: »

I think the people affected should be taken care of by there governments not an airline, how is it the airline's fault a volcano went kablamo. Its a countries duty to take care of its citizens.

sure, that will definitely help alleviate the economic pressure already on our public spending. you do know thats not magic money but taxpayer (me) money. great idea buddy!

Herbal Deity · 21-04-2010 05:16PM

Saganist wrote: »

http://www.ryanair.com/doc/faqs/EU261_EN.pdf

Duty of Care. Its on their website and all the stranded passengers abroad read this.

What would you think after reading this ?

3. RIGHT TO CARE
If you are involuntarily denied boarding or if your flight is cancelled or delayed by more than 2 hours, we will offer you, free of charge:
a) meals and refreshment vouchers in reasonable relation to the waiting time, as long as it will not further delay the departure of the aircraft
b) two telephone calls, telex or fax messages or e-mails;
c) hotel accommodation in cases where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, or where a stay additional to that intended by you becomes necessary;
d) transport between the airport and place of accommodation (hotel or other).
If your flight is delayed as specified under ‘Flight Delays’ above or your elect to be re-routed to your final destination at the earliest opportunity as a result of a flight cancellation, we will offer you items (a) and (b) above. If the new time of departure is reasonably expected as a result of the delay or your being re-routed following a cancellation to at least the day after the original time of departure, we will also offer you items (c) and (d) above. Where it is not feasible for Ryanair to arrange the care set out above, Ryanair will reimburse you for reasonable receipted expenses upon application to: Ryanair Compensation Department, Dublin Airport, Co. Dublin, Ireland.

You missed the section at the top:

FLIGHT CANCELLATION
If your flight is cancelled, you are entitled to the rights set out below except when:
 you are informed of the cancellation at least two weeks before the scheduled time of departure; or
 you are informed of the cancellation between two weeks and seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing you to depart no more than two hours before the scheduled time of departure and to reach your final destination less than four hours after the scheduled time of arrival; or
 you are informed of the cancellation less than seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing you to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach your final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival; or
 (in respect of any ‘Right to Compensation’) we can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken by Ryanair, including but not limited to political instability, safety and security reasons, weather disruption, labour disputes or failure or delay of air traffic control facilities.

I read that document when I was in stuck in Gatwick due to the snow, and I remember that paragraph as it is the reason we weren't entitled to compensation from Ryanair.

I've no idea why it's being said that it's the law that airlines have to take care of stranded passengers. They don't, according to that document anyway...

EDIT: The wiki page claims that airlines are exempt from cash compensation, but must provide refreshments and accommodation. So it would appear that either the wiki page or Ryanair's document is wrong...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_261/2004

InReality · 21-04-2010 05:16PM

No

Why are people so mad to support Ryanair and be "fair" ? "Fairness" is a foreign concept to any business or company.
You have a problem with some Customer Rep and try this fairness stuff on and see how far you get.

Saganist · 21-04-2010 05:19PM

No

funkyjebus wrote: »

sure, that will definitely help alleviate the economic pressure already on our public spending. you do know thats not magic money but taxpayer (me) money. great idea buddy!

funky.. Where you dropped on the head as a child by any chance ?

The chap was just trying to offer an alternative and you shoot him down like that.

Regarding your reply to me.. If an insurance company puts "act of god" in their policy and this includes "volcanos" and the effects of it then they can, if they want refuse payment.

I never said ALL policies where the same regarding the current situation, just that if they wanted to, they could and I know at least a few guest where I am staying have been told they are NOT covered...

That is not the same as Ryanairs "obligation" to provide duty of care to those stranded abroad..

Saganist · 21-04-2010 05:21PM

No

Herbal Deity wrote: »

You missed the section at the top:

I read that document when I was in stuck in Gatwick due to the snow, and I remember that paragraph as it is the reason we weren't entitled to compensation from Ryanair.

I've no idea why it's being said that it's the law that airlines have to take care of stranded passengers. They don't, according to that document anyway...

I read that.. Dont think I just skipped over it !

http://www.aviationreg.ie/CAR_response_to_Ryanair_announcement_that_passenger_expenses_will_not_be_reimbursed/Default.467.html

http://www.aviationreg.ie/So_how_do_passengers_go_about_getting_reimbursement/Default.468.html

no1beemerfan · 21-04-2010 05:23PM

Saganist wrote: »

funky.. Where you dropped on the head as a child by any chance ?

The chap was just trying to offer an alternative and you shoot him down like that. I can imagine you're a right tool in real life ! :D

I started this debate to have just that...a debate...not hurl personal insults at people.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion wether you like it or not. Doesn't make them a tool etc.

21-04-2010 05:26PM

Biggins wrote: »

EU law states that flight carriers HAVE to provide food and accommodation for passengers they have delayed.
There is no if's or but's about this any more. Its the law. Its a recent law that was brought in within the last few months.

This was pointed out yet again on the Monday night Pat Kenny "Front Line" show
(view here: http://www.rte.ie/news/thefrontline/)

Well 'acts of god' should exempt the airlines the same as it does the insurance companies.. Compensation should only be due if the airlines are at fault.

21-04-2010 05:31PM

funkyjebus wrote: »

sure, that will definitely help alleviate the economic pressure already on our public spending. you do know thats not magic money but taxpayer (me) money. great idea buddy!

And an already crippled airline industry is to bear the brunt?

Saganist · 21-04-2010 05:36PM

No

Deleted User wrote: »

Well 'acts of god' should exempt the airlines the same as it does the insurance companies.. Compensation should only be due if the airlines are at fault.

My god. Its just not sinking in is it...

Its doesnt matter if they are at fault or not.. They are obliged under EU law to provide Duty of Care to passengers in the case of cancelled flights.

Read this from Commission from Aviation Regulation

http://www.aviationreg.ie/So_how_do_passengers_go_about_getting_reimbursement/Default.468.html

beeman, sorry for the personal insult, you are right, I will edit my post, but some of the comments on this thread are beyond belief.

Why can't people just read the rules and accept them ? Why is everyone trying to pick up for Ryanair when there are still thousands of stranded Irish people abroad ?

Its beyond belief. It really is..

Herbal Deity · 21-04-2010 05:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Well 'acts of god' should exempt the airlines the same as it does the insurance companies.. Compensation should only be due if the airlines are at fault.

See my post above, it actually seems to be a loophole. Airlines don't have to give cash compensation in extraordinary circumstances, but if passengers opt to take the next available flight, and it is over a day away, they must provide accommodation and meals.

It's quite obvious that the law was written without considering that the entire European airspace might shut down for a whole week...

Anyone else think Ryanair right not to pay board and keep for stranded passengers?

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