You think your job is bad? Try working for Microsoft in China!

pickarooney · 19-04-2010 10:43AM

ascanbe wrote: »

The Japanese governmet does deserve blame; but that is no excuse.

For what, exactly?

sron · 19-04-2010 10:58AM

azezil wrote: »

Oh noes, people are suffering so I can enjoy my gadgets and other technomalogical stuffs!!! :eek:

Oh wait, I don't care cause like most of the other people in the western world, I like my affordable goods and don't give a crap where they come from ^_^

The beauty of capitalism.

Ruu_Old · 19-04-2010 11:18AM

Shocking, I found out more from my sources*.

The factory plays David Bowie's Heroes over the radio, it loops 24/7.
Workers chant Bill Gates name in sync, if they are caught out, they will have to eat the factory food.

*not reliable whatsoever!

stovelid · 19-04-2010 11:29AM

If profit-driven shit working conditions are in commie countries, it's awful.

When they're here, the employees are told to man up and we're told that the employers "should be running the country".

ejmaztec · 19-04-2010 11:54AM

pickarooney wrote: »

For what, exactly?

For not being Chinese.

orourkeda · 19-04-2010 12:14PM

They should stick to cooking bean casserole and spare ribs in future

Noreen1 · 19-04-2010 12:19PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

this implies that the corporation has some sort of moral responsibility, which they dont. the only moral responsibility they have is to provide the best return possible to their shareholders

the chinese goverment have a moral responsibility to take care of their citizens

thats it basically at a root level. corporations can choose to be more socially responsible in how they do business but only with the permission off and the best interests of the shareholders at heart

They may not have a legal responsibility, in China or certain other countries, to ensure their company doesn't outsource to companies who abuse their workforce, but to suggest that they don't have a moral responsibility is, quite frankly, highly debatable. :eek:

The truth is, that large multi-national Corporations, whether Microsoft, Asus, or anyone else........are in a unique position to influence Employment legislation in Countries with a poor Human Rights record.
The fact that they choose not to speaks volumes, frankly!

Noreen

wes · 19-04-2010 12:21PM

I doubt they knew about, and will probably either switch to another company, or demand changes to avoid bad publicity.

ScumLord · 19-04-2010 12:37PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Don't go blaming Gates for everything. I highy doubt he has that much control over an outsourced manufacturing company in China. His company should look in to their manufacturing partners though.

Mr Gates had retired last I heard and more than likely wouldn't have any notion of what goes on in Manufacturing it's just not his field. I'm sure given all his humanitarian work of late he'll be a bit pissed his well paid for good name is being dragged through the dirt.

Bonito wrote: »

Well he has to make as much money as he can. China have an OS they're waiting to blitz the market with. It's so brilliant that the only processors suitable for it are not affordable yet. When they are it'll be bye bye Bill. :cool:

People complain about google getting to see what your up to, no one is going to want an OS made by the Chinese government. I'm even surprised the Japanese and Koreans would trust the Chinese enough to give them something as powerful as OS control over their population.

marco_polo wrote: »

As someone else said, such inspections could easily be subject to corruption. And as this is China almmost certainly are.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/202041.asp

Not exactly defending them here as clearly their inspection processes are not up to scratch, but suggesting they were aware and condoning of such behaviour is a fairly wild stretch. Surely Chineese corporate culture is the more guilty party here.

All manufacturing companies preform audits, there's no way you could ensure products being designed in one part of the world and manufactured in another would all fit together during assembly without ensuring the equipment is working to the same standards and is calibrated.

however in most cases those audits refer to people as resources. In Europe and the US those are highly valued expensively trained resources but an auditor could pass an employee on fire and still put it down as a workplace problem or a faulty lighter and ignore the employee on fire.

the_syco · 19-04-2010 12:37PM

marco_polo wrote: »

We should note that as part of Microsoft's ongoing supplier SEA (Social and Environmental Accountability) program, an independent auditor has been inspecting the KYE factory annually. In addition, Microsoft personnel conduct quarterly on-site assessments, and receive weekly reports from KYE on key labor and safety criteria that we monitor as part of our supplier SEA program. Over the past two years, we have required documentation and verification of worker age, and no incidence of child labor has been detected. Worker overtime has been significantly reduced, and worker compensation is in line with the Electronic Industry Citizenship Coalition standards for the Dongguan area.

This smells badly of "eveyone else there gets paid sh|tty wages as well"... :mad:

ejmaztec · 19-04-2010 12:56PM

It's going to be a rough ride in a few years time when the Chinese are running the world, and it suddenly dawns on Western multi-nationals that they've handed everything to them on a plate for the sake of a quick buck.

ScumLord · 19-04-2010 01:03PM

Lanaier wrote: »

I know people who have worked for MS in China, they were pretty happy.

There is a difference between working for Microsoft and working in some sweatshop they hired someone else to manage.

Not really, companies chose these sweatshops so they can give themselves deniability but they know exactly what they're doing. They know the cost of labor and parts and must have some idea of what people are getting paid and what conditions must be like to achieve those prices.

I take your point though, and perhaps you should change your comment to
There are bad things in China, this is true. But the issue is a little more complex than : bad factory in China = China is bad.

It wasn't all that long ago that even Ireland wasn't such a great place for workers rights.:eek:

The difference is once we started getting the cash to improve things we did. Irish manufacturing is of very high standards these days, too high maybe.

The Chinese government is taking advantage of it's people, I think that's a fact, they're also taking advantage of us in the west. There are too many knock off "villages" these aren't some factory hidden down an alley it's entire villages dedicated to knocking off branded products. There's to much human right and workers rights violations for it just to be an oversight. The Chinese government has a hand in and actively encourages this kind of behavior. It's the only way it could happen in China.

Sisko · 19-04-2010 01:08PM

FFS china...

Seriously you could have a thread for everything in china..

"You think your something something is bad? Try something something in China!"

Pittens · 19-04-2010 01:16PM

Oh wait, I don't care cause like most of the other people in the western world, I like my affordable goods and don't give a crap where they come from ^_^

The thing is that I think I would be personally richer were it not for outsourcing to China, and India. As would many people in IT. Also we would have more jobs in the West, more manufaturing jobs, paying better money to semi-skilled workers.

The actual winners here are the Chinese government, Chinese capitalists, some skilled Chinese workers, and some Westerners but by no means all.

Max Power1 · 19-04-2010 01:46PM

recylingbin wrote: »

I had to work through lunch in sandyford a few years back.
Me and the chinese are as one.

should have been really ironic and had a curry

19-04-2010 01:55PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's going to be a rough ride in a few years time when the Chinese are running the world, and it suddenly dawns on Western multi-nationals that they've handed everything to them on a plate for the sake of a quick buck.

Yep! Considering that they appear to have more US dollars than the US, they could easily control the financial world at a time of their choosing.

First all the jobs were exported there then all the money was exported to buy the finished goods, now large loans are owed to the Chinese by American businesses.

Just wait 'till the consumption of oil exceeds production, the Chinese will be at the front of the queue!

Spiritoftheseventies · 19-04-2010 02:17PM

A long way from Google with their games room and all that.

ejmaztec · 19-04-2010 02:35PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yep! Considering that they appear to have more US dollars than the US, they could easily control the financial world at a time of their choosing.

First all the jobs were exported there then all the money was exported to buy the finished goods, now large loans are owed to the Chinese by American businesses.

Just wait 'till the consumption of oil exceeds production, the Chinese will be at the front of the queue!

On the other hand, the Chinese government must be well aware from China's own history, that the downtrodden tend to boil over and start a revolution when they get really pissed off. The secret police are probably working overtime, dragging people off in the middle of the night.

It will be in the West's favour if the Chinese workers start industrial action to substantially increase their pay, so that it becomes less and less profitable for Western companies to manufacture there.

ScumLord · 19-04-2010 03:19PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

On the other hand, the Chinese government must be well aware from China's own history, that the downtrodden tend to boil over and start a revolution when they get really pissed off. The secret police are probably working overtime, dragging people off in the middle of the night.

It will be in the West's favour if the Chinese workers start industrial action to substantially increase their pay, so that it becomes less and less profitable for Western companies to manufacture there.

I don't think that will happen. The Chinese are used to being downtrodden, it's ingrained in their culture to do as they're told. They have no influx of new thinking like other countries that have revolted have had.

Lanaier · 19-04-2010 03:44PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Not really, companies chose these sweatshops so they can give themselves deniability but they know exactly what they're doing. They know the cost of labor and parts and must have some idea of what people are getting paid and what conditions must be like to achieve those prices.

Perhaps.
There was a BBC documentary that followed a Nokia "ethical assessment" team as they did an audit of a Chinese factory.
It seemed pretty clear to me that the Nokia consultant was genuinely interested in the conditions of the workers, much to the chagrin of the local manager there.
Even the foreign general manager very begrudgingly gave them the details about how much they pay the workers.
Looked like making change in the factories would be a long and slow process even for those who are really trying.

One could pass that off as corporate propaganda, but I urge you to watch it for yourself before you made up your mind.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/storyville/made-in-china.shtml
(Don't know if it's available streaming somewhere)

ScumLord wrote: »

The difference is once we started getting the cash to improve things we did. Irish manufacturing is of very high standards these days, too high maybe.

If you think that conditions in China are not vastly different now to what they were just 20 years ago I have to strongly disagree.

More than 20 million people (some say 30 or even 40!) starved to death over a three year period only 50 years ago.
The fact that a country this size simply has enough food is amazing, though it may not always seem that way to our eyes.
(This famine was itself caused by stupid governmental policies)

ScumLord wrote: »

The Chinese government is taking advantage of it's people, ....... The Chinese government has a hand in and actively encourages this kind of behavior. It's the only way it could happen in China.

Hmm, well I would agree that the government is taking advantage, as for actively encouraging it....I would have to view that as a bit of a grey area.
There are administrative issues the likes of which those of us from small countries rarely encounter, and there is corruption at both a provincial and county level that is so ingrained in the culture that you can't really finger the government for the whole situation.

A law that is passed in Beijing may not be functional in Xinjiang (A few thousand KM away) for months or longer.
How do you admin a country like this?

Yes people are being abused, you can add that to the earths longest laundry list of things that needs to change to any one country.

My point is: things are changing here.
It's may seem slower than we'd like, but actually it's incredibly fast.
Not exactly great news for those in factories right now I know.

Anyway, it's 22:40 here and I'm still stuck in the office after a long day, so forgive me if any of that was incoherent.

19-04-2010 04:11PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

On the other hand, the Chinese government must be well aware from China's own history, that the downtrodden tend to boil over and start a revolution when they get really pissed off. The secret police are probably working overtime, dragging people off in the middle of the night.

I'm not really referring to the "downtrodden workers" more the Chinese government getting the upperhand with respect to world trade. Subsistance living has always meant working dawn to dusk for a pittance.

Many of those worker would otherwise be in agriculture, working the same type of hours for even less!

ejmaztec · 19-04-2010 04:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not really referring to the "downtrodden workers" more the Chinese government getting the upperhand with respect to world trade. Subsistance living has always meant working dawn to dusk for a pittance.

Many of those worker would otherwise be in agriculture, working the same type of hours for even less!

Yes, but one of the reasons they managed to get the upperhand was the no-holds-barred cheap labour to draw the West into their economic trap. This and a few other carrots got the West to fall for it. Constituent parts of the big plan to screw us.:(

Noreen1 · 19-04-2010 04:54PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

On the other hand, the Chinese government must be well aware from China's own history, that the downtrodden tend to boil over and start a revolution when they get really pissed off. The secret police are probably working overtime, dragging people off in the middle of the night.

It will be in the West's favour if the Chinese workers start industrial action to substantially increase their pay, so that it becomes less and less profitable for Western companies to manufacture there.

Do they actually have trade unions, though? History shows that the Chinese government is absolutely merciless when it comes to quashing protest of any kind.
I think it would be advantageous to working people, worldwide, to have decent employment legislation in China, and countries with poor Human rights records. I cannot see how downtrodden workers can get any justice without massive, unionised industrial action, though.

This is one area where large multinational corporations can influence workers rights - by demanding that any company to which they outsource work is unionised - and that the Corporation should "assist" the individual factory management, conduct negotiations with the union.
The fact that "Multinationals" frequently move their production facilities to countries with "cheap labour", yet consistently fail to improve workers rights to a significant degree, is a very powerful indicator of what their true motivation is - R.O.I.

Individual inspectors may be genuinely concerned about workers rights. Unfortunately, the Board of Directors ultimately make the decision about working conditions. They do so when they fail to ensure enforceable workers rights are a legally binding part of the sales contract.

There is no point in just blaming the Government in these countries. Multinational Corporations are equally guilty.

Noreen

Stark · 19-04-2010 05:00PM

Over the past three years, unprecedented photographs of exhausted teenaged workers, toiling and slumping asleep on their assembly line during break time, have been smuggled out of the KYE factory.

Someone with a camera could probably have snapped a picture of me asleep at my desk during my lunch break as well today. Damn hangover.

BigDuffman · 19-04-2010 05:30PM

Serious AH chat!! Well I never...!

My favorite part was:

KYE prefers to hire women 18 to 25 years of age, since they are easier to discipline and control.

Sounds kinkay

!

You think your job is bad? Try working for Microsoft in China!

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