You think your job is bad? Try working for Microsoft in China!

Biggins · 19-04-2010 12:56AM

DarrenMSP wrote: »

...how about some focus on the oppressive government which rules the country? It's not like they have a human right record to be proud of. Have you seen any pictures of other Chinese factories? Read some reports, you'll see it's not really much different!

Thats was partly the point of the post too which was why I said earlier "...and count your blessings your living in Ireland or anywhere else now! "

We really don't know how lucky we are sometimes.
At least we CAN give out and protest - like this pain in the backside (me) does when its possibly called for.

pebbles21 · 19-04-2010 01:03AM

At least they have a job !! Ungrateful Ba$tards:rolleyes:

ejmaztec · 19-04-2010 01:03AM

I bet Chairman Mao is having a good spin in his grave now, wondering why non-communist communists are running his old stamping ground.

Biggins · 19-04-2010 01:06AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

I bet Chairman Mao is having a good spin in his grave now, wondering why non-communist communists are running his old stamping ground.

They moved on from the little red book to bigger red boxes!
More money in it for someone high up somewhere in China?

ascanbe · 19-04-2010 01:07AM

The_Minister wrote: »

Microsoft probably doesn't know whats going on in that factory.

Companies outsource work to places in China, and nowadays (after the 'sweat-shop' scandels of the '90s) force the people they contract with to agree to minimum working conditions for workers.

However, as the lowest bidder gets the contract, and higher wages are expensive, very often they will sign the contract and just bribe the inspectors to give them good reports and say they are complying, so the company doesn't know anything is wrong until the CEO is getting calls about rights abuses.

Then everyone goes nuts at the 'heartless' corporations, even though they had no idea that the people they had contracted with had committed these crimes.

What? Any corporation involved in contracting out work should know exactly what conditions those operating under their banner have set for their workers.
If you agree that these conditions are 'heartless' then the corporation mentioned in this case is, indeed, heartless.
Contracting out work and then washing your hands of the conditions of labour is, at best, an abdication of responsibility; in reality though, it's simply turning a blind eye.

partyatmygaff · 19-04-2010 01:10AM

ascanbe wrote: »

What? Any corporation involved in contracting out work should know exactly what conditions those operating under their banner have set for their workers.
If you agree that these conditions are 'heartless' then the corporation mentioned in this case is, indeed, heartless.
Contracting out work and then washing your hands of the conditions of labour is, at best, an abdication of responsibility; in reality though, it's simply turning a blind eye.

They set out guidelines and the Factory should abide by them. The factory doesn't seem to care too much for that though.

I don't see why this has to single out Microsoft when in fact the company manufactures for many different brands. If you think this is bad you should see the conditions at Foxconn's factories. They make a lot of products for apple (Including the iPhone) and work conditions there are horrible.

ejmaztec · 19-04-2010 01:12AM

Biggins wrote: »

They moved on from the little red book to bigger red boxes!
More money in it for someone high up somewhere in China?

They're quite good at dealing with book-fiddlers though. Had they been in charge of Ireland, several hundred bankers and property developers would have been strung up 18 months ago.

Lu Tze · 19-04-2010 01:13AM

When you can buy a mouse for less than a tenner, is it that surprising that pay and conditions are poor?

Call me selfish - but with irish wages applied to this situation the cheapest mouse you could get would probably be for €100.

So those of you condemning this, would you be willing to pay that much for a mouse produced by workers with excellent pay and conditions, or would you opt for the €10 mouse beside it on the shelf?

Its the consumers that decide this, our buying preference are responsible for this

PeakOutput · 19-04-2010 01:13AM

ascanbe wrote: »

What? Any corporation involved in contracting out work should know exactly what conditions those operating under their banner have set for their workers.
If you agree that these conditions are 'heartless' then the corporation mentioned in this case is, indeed, heartless.
Contracting out work and then washing your hands of the conditions of labour is, at best, an abdication of responsibility; in reality though, it's simply turning a blind eye.

this implies that the corporation has some sort of moral responsibility, which they dont. the only moral responsibility they have is to provide the best return possible to their shareholders

the chinese goverment have a moral responsibility to take care of their citizens

thats it basically at a root level. corporations can choose to be more socially responsible in how they do business but only with the permission off and the best interests of the shareholders at heart

Biggins · 19-04-2010 01:14AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

...I don't see why this has to single out Microsoft when in fact the company manufactures for many different brands...

To be fair to the Labour committee's report, if they were just to state such things were going on - without backing up such claims, there would be others out there going "Yea, yea... prove it!"

So in this case they exposed one, a simple example - Microsoft.

I'm absolutely sure that this is the tip of the ice-berg and Microsoft products (as above) is sadly one of many, many instances as with other companies.
Again, thank heavens we are not under Chinese rule or working china conditions. As much as I hate to say it, they make Fianna Fail look tame - and that wasn't easy for me to say!

Plausible deniability by the way, Microsoft?

ascanbe · 19-04-2010 01:18AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

two things

these are not microsoft employees

and im sure this is extremely widespread with numerous irish companies probably outsourcing to the same companies

that dosnt make it right but demonising microsoft over it is ridicolous there are numerous people to blame including the japanese goverment

also bill gates has a much reduced role in running microsoft and concentrates alot of his time on the foundation and charity he donated 90% of his wealth to so all this big evil corporation head stuff is complete ****e

The Japanese governmet does deserve blame; but that is no excuse.
No one is focing the corporation in question to contract work out to operations in that country.
They are doing so because they feel it is benificial/profitible.
If you wish to defend the company from the point of view of economic/political ideology then have the courage of your convictions; i'm sure they don't need you to make excuses for them.

PeakOutput · 19-04-2010 01:22AM

ascanbe wrote: »

The Japanese governmet does deserve blame; but that is no excuse.
No one is focing the corporation in question to contract work out to operations in that country.
They are doing so because they feel it is benificial/profitible.
If you wish to defend the company from the point of view of economic/political ideology then have the courage of your convictions; i'm sure they don't need you to make excuses for them.

i refer you to my reply two posts up

ascanbe · 19-04-2010 01:25AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

this implies that the corporation has some sort of moral responsibility, which they dont. the only moral responsibility they have is to provide the best return possible to their shareholders

the chinese goverment have a moral responsibility to take care of their citizens

thats it basically at a root level. corporations can choose to be more socially responsible in how they do business but only with the permission off and the best interests of the shareholders at heart

I'm sure the company in question does make claims for itself regarding workers rights; that should extend to those they contract out work to.
Otherwise it's a false claim.
No one is forcing them to operate in countries with underwhelming human rights records; they do so because it's profitable.
If that is their modus operandi they should make it clear; people like yourself who have no time for 'moral responsibility' will still be there for them.
Is there any regime in history that you feel a company should have thought twice about profiting from?

ejmaztec · 19-04-2010 01:30AM

It's quite possible that Microsoft didn't actually know about the working conditions at this particular place. Their executives would have met the Chinese company's executives, and wouldn't have had a clue about the workers' situation.

It will be interesting to see what Microsoft does about it.

PeakOutput · 19-04-2010 01:32AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Is there any regime in history that you feel a company should have thought twice about profiting from?

yes i have serious problems with the fact that siemens was the name on the ovens in auschwitz

and i dont have 'no time for moral responsibility' but its not the companies place to enforce it, its the law of the lands place its one of the reasons why i dont believe in a completely free market/economy there are a few things that do need to be regulated

edit; i also like to give the company more benefit of the doubt until all facts are known which is part of my reason for taking the opposite side in many threads like this

ascanbe · 19-04-2010 01:36AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's quite possible that Microsoft didn't actually know about the working conditions at this particular place. Their executives would have met the Chinese company's executives, and wouldn't have had a clue about the workers' situation.

It will be interesting to see what Microsoft does about it.

Yeah. If this has just come to light, perhaps they will do something about it.
Anyway, i'm hypocritical in this instance as i have patronised the company in question and many others who, i'm sure, operate in the same fashion; maybe i should cease to.
Responded to some posts because i felt they were making an ideological point; don't think these mega corporations need people making excuses for them.

Augmerson · 19-04-2010 01:36AM

Microsoft is taking advantage of conditions lay down by the Chinese Gov't. Those fuckers are to blame for the atrocious conditions suffered by workers.

Biggins · 19-04-2010 01:39AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's quite possible that Microsoft didn't actually know about the working conditions at this particular place. Their executives would have met the Chinese company's executives, and wouldn't have had a clue about the workers' situation.

It will be interesting to see what Microsoft does about it.

Just on that, Microsoft stated themselves they carry out quarterly inspections (see links in previous posts).
It also depends on how hard their inspectors once they got to China previously, wanted how hard really to actually look - and what to report back!
(thus my "plausible deniability" comment)

I suspect by the time the new round of inspectors get there in the following weeks, the place will shine like a new cent and smell of roses - at least for a while - till they go.

For the record, I know for a fact that Microsoft workers beyond China ARE - mostly as far as I know and I have met a few and been on their properties - treated good and decent.

ascanbe · 19-04-2010 01:43AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

yes i have serious problems with the fact that siemens was the name on the ovens in auschwitz

and i dont have 'no time for moral responsibility' but its not the companies place to enforce it, its the law of the lands place its one of the reasons why i dont believe in a completely free market/economy there are a few things that do need to be regulated

edit; i also like to give the company more benefit of the doubt until all facts are known which is part of my reason for taking the opposite side in many threads like this

Agree with you on the last point.
Regarding a corporations role in enforcing the 'law of the land' of any given state, of course they have no role; but they do have a choice as to which states they choose to operate in.
Any company that continued to operate in Nazi Germany were, implicitly, endorsing that regime and willingly profiting from it.
The same principle applies; though that is the most extreme example.

filthymcnasty · 19-04-2010 01:57AM

Biggins wrote: »

You think your job is bad? Try working for Microsoft in China!
...and count your blessings your living in Ireland or anywhere else now!

Not exactly the face Microsoft want you to know about or see - or China's government for that matter.
I wonder is Bill Gates sleeping well tonight? I'm guessing he is.

Long article so if you can't be bothered, best to leave now and live in unknowing bliss.

http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034&t=1

Download PDF version: http://www.nlcnet.org/admin/reports/files/Chinas_Youth_Meet_Micro.pdf

Biggins that is indeed outrageous, but the fact is people will queue for these jobs regardless- its gonna be better than working in the toothbrush factory or picking rice or waiting for chinese social 'protection' :rolleyes:
Whats your advice to penniless Chinese applicants? - don't apply and wait for Irish/EU Human rights to come over to save u and clarify conditions and rescue you from poverty once the volcanic cloud subsides-
You are right this is not on, but these people will not put up with the status quo- they will take these jobs because for them its better than the devil they know- what the fcuk else are are all chinese unemployed gonna do

Lanaier · 19-04-2010 06:00AM

Biggins wrote: »

You think your job is bad? Try working for Microsoft in China!

I know people who have worked for MS in China, they were pretty happy.

There is a difference between working for Microsoft and working in some sweatshop they hired someone else to manage.
At the top of that article it clearly says:
"KYE Factory in China Produces for Microsoft and other U.S. Companies"

I'm not going to read that article...but I'm willing to believe MS may be in the wrong here,not exactly a far fetched idea :P

Biggins wrote: »

...and count your blessings your living in Ireland or anywhere else now!

Hmm...well, if you lived here, right now...during the recession..you could:

Afford to eat out every night from a huge variety of food options.
Enjoy cheap drinks and entertainment available 24 hours a day.
Be perfectly safe and with absolutely no chance of nighttime violence/crime (except from other foreigners).
Afford a large and comfortable apartment, with a cleaner, groceries delivered to your door 24/7 with no delivery charge, large HDTV , gaming consoles etc..... DVDs here are about 50cent.
Book cheap flights to SE.Asian tourist destinations.

This is what the recession has been like for me and most of the foreigners I know.
Looking at the Irish people I know here....most of them are better paid than I am. I have a normal job in a normal office, I'm not a CEO and I'm not at all rich.

I take your point though, and perhaps you should change your comment to

"..and count your blessings you're Irish or from anywhere else now! "

There are bad things in China, this is true. But the issue is a little more complex than : bad factory in China = China is bad.

It wasn't all that long ago that even Ireland wasn't such a great place for workers rights.:eek:

Lanaier · 19-04-2010 07:00AM

Biggins wrote: »

Whats the betting there will be a clean-up operation going on right now before newer inspectors are sent in and any possible suspected descenting staff are given a day off, by coincidence, the day the inspectors arrive.

Sadly likely.

old_aussie · 19-04-2010 07:34AM

Lucky bestards, they've got a job, they get fed, they have a roof over their heads and they're gaining valuable work skills.

What more can they want, maybe an extra bowl of rice.

Biggins · 19-04-2010 07:52AM

filthymcnasty wrote: »

Biggins that is indeed outrageous...

All good points and very true. What little choice do they have!

Lanaier wrote: »

...I take your point though, and perhaps you should change your comment to
There are bad things in China, this is true. But the issue is a little more complex than : bad factory in China = China is bad.

It wasn't all that long ago that even Ireland wasn't such a great place for workers rights.:eek:

Again, I understand where your coming from and agree a lot too.
A slight difference is that we at least COULD stand up, raise voices and speak out.
What chance does those workers have realistically?

"..and count your blessings you're Irish or from anywhere else now! "

That indeed was what I was trying to say too.

19-04-2010 08:17AM

Bonito wrote: »

Here and here.

Sorry these are old reports but I do remember coming across a new one not so long ago.

Another Linux based system? Ground breaking. :rolleyes:

Naos · 19-04-2010 09:22AM

Biggins wrote: »

Think again nummnutts!
The National Labour Committee is run by Apple!
- I don't think so nummnutts!

http://www.nlcnet.org/

Lol, what an insult. I'm using that today.

"Pass me the salt there Naos."
"I don't think so, nummnutts!"

I'll pause just after the so for added effect.

Lanaier · 19-04-2010 09:53AM

I see absolutely no reason why that OS would be successful in China, let alone anywhere else.

Also, I work in I.T. here and I don't think I've heard anything about it for the last few years that I can remember.

I'd like to point out that the only people who actually pay for legitimate software here are corporations. I use a properly licensed version of Windows but I'm one of the only people I know here who does.
Most people just use copied versions of windows (even FINDING legit versions is hard), so even assuming this
new OS is free...its competing with practically-free windows.

Will it be compatible with all the industry standards (MS Office etc) out of the box? If not, I'm not seeing a bright future.
And the fact that it's hard to find news about it within the last few years is also a sign that it might be vaporware.

Biggins · 19-04-2010 10:04AM

Naos wrote: »

Lol, what an insult. I'm using that today.

"Pass me the salt there Naos."
"I don't think so, nummnutts!"

I'll pause just after the so for added effect.

:pac:

Just in case you missed it, "nummnutts" is his forum name. :pac:

Naos · 19-04-2010 10:20AM

Damnit!

Totally missed that! Well played Biggins, well played.

azezil · 19-04-2010 10:37AM

Oh noes, people are suffering so I can enjoy my gadgets and other technomalogical stuffs!!! :eek:

Oh wait, I don't care cause like most of the other people in the western world, I like my affordable goods and don't give a crap where they come from ^_^

You think your job is bad? Try working for Microsoft in China!

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