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Medical cockups: more common than officially recognised?

  • 17-04-2010 01:32PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭


    In the past two months three people I know have been put in severe pain because of medical mistakes: by a podiatrist, a consultant-surgeon, and a dentist.

    In all cases the medical people in question apologised that the patients were suffering - which is, of course, different to admitting 'I messed-up' (their insurance companies would probably go ballistic if they did that). All three "professionals" had the same line: "these things can happen" or "this is rare, but happens" etc.

    In all three cases the people involved refused to sue, chiefly because they accepted that everybody makes mistakes in their jobs but also because they had suffered enough from it and wanted to get on with their lives asap.


    So, I'm now wondering is there a hidden Ireland of people who have suffered silently from members of the medical profession being less than professional? There should be an official record of these mess-ups because it really would show up the true degree of professionalism in the medical profession and question their fees.

    Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated or misdiagnosed by a medical profession but chose not to report it?

    Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated by a medical professional? 45 votes

    Yes, and I/they chose *not* to report it
    0%
    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    100%
    seanybikerCathyMoranR0otLumenbluedolphinaFlabbyPandaOutlawPetegalwayrushNaikontinner777OverhealaibbyCiaran187Dionysuspooch90echosoundKriegBigginsHead_HunterAgonist 45 votes


«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    Prove they were cock-ups?

    Contrary to what you may believe, these things DO just happen. Humans are not infallible, and the people in question are alive. So no need to complain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    I was shagging a nurse for a while last year and then without warning she stopped answering my calls. When I met her again she accused me of cheating on her which was just not true.

    So I would answer Yes to your poll good Sir, she treated me very wrongly indeed.


    Also - medical cockup? Yup that's what I was doing to her alright! ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    Prove they were cock-ups?

    Contrary to what you may believe, these things DO just happen. Humans are not infallible, and the people in question are alive. So no need to complain.

    They "do just happen", all on their own?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    Great poll options. 'Have you been wrongly treated by a medical professional?. Yes or Yes.'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    Me twin brother got the wrong tooth pulled years ago, root and all. It looked mental.
    These things do just happen though. Sound of your mates not to sue, to many people nowadays suing because someone farted in the same county as them.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,187 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Know someone who had parts removed unecessarily, but that was a big deal and made it to the news a good while back.

    Otherwise it's all small things, like a junior doctor giving someone a huge dose of insulin because they misread the paperwork. These things happen, and people working in frontline medicine mess up far less than the rest of us; the consequences of messing up are too high.

    I don't think we can expect anymore from them, particularly with the long hours that they have to work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Dionysus wrote: »
    members of the medical profession being less than professional?

    how do you know the doctors involved with your friends did anything unprofessional?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    In my family? Yes. More than once. One involving a lawsuit. And we have docs in the family too, so you would think we would have better access to info. In others? Yes many times. Against that Ive also seen and heard of great successes. The failures stand out more.

    The medical profession is a very challenging and incredibly complex job. People will make mistakes. Too many patients don't involve themselves in their care. Its not just the doctors and nurses at fault in this.

    Antibiotics are a good example. We have antibiotic resistant bacteria, because of over prescription. Yes the doctors should have been much more cautious, but when every second patient demands antibiotics for every bloody thing it was a recipe for disaster. Antibiotics have zero effect on viruses. Only bacteria, so unless you have a bacterial infection serious enough to require them, then dont bloody ask for them or take them. I think doctors should be much more proactive in telling people to eff off when the ask for them. I know a woman who has gotten them for every bloody thing shes suffered in the last 20 years and her doctor keeps handing them out like smarties. Ever stronger ones too because he has to at this stage. Daft. But it is changing thank god and the doctors are driving that change.

    IMHO a similar potential future minefield at the moment are anti depression medications. They are an incredibly useful tool that make some peoples lives livable and indeed may save their very lives. But the antibiotic model seems at play here too. People with low level mental issues(sometimes very low level) are being given these medications where they shouldnt be IMHO. Again a lot are demanding them. The pill for every ill, mothers little helper etc.

    When that study came out that showed SSRI meds were barely above placebo in effect(with waaay more side effects), the anti shrink unsceintific hippie types were all "ha I told you so!". Bollocks. The study showed they were not much use with mild depression(which is a v diff illness to major depression). They were very useful, if not vital with severe cases.The hippies forget that bit though.

    Which comes back to my point. There should be a lot fewer people on these meds than currently. Other avenues should be looked at first. Or I fear we may have worse problems in otherwise "normal" people down the line. Including(and this wont be popular) the Kick up the bloody arse (tm) therapy. Which includes such procedures as the "Get off your arse, engage your social life and your physical life and live like a human is meant to"(tm) therapy. But thats an explanation and rant for another day....

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Dionysus wrote: »
    They "do just happen", all on their own?

    yes


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Where is the No button, and where is the choice to say this poll is utterly stupid?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    Dinner wrote: »
    Great poll options. 'Have you been wrongly treated by a medical professional?. Yes or Yes.'

    Let me underline the relevant section of the question here: Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated or misdiagnosed by a medical profession but chose not to report it?

    Surprisingly enough, the options follow the real question (not your imaginary question) precisely. Now, once again, at least try and discern a difference between both options.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    As pointed out above, all medical professionals are human, yes mistakes happen. I work in a medical facility, though we do not carry out any procedures, but I see mistakes with meds often enough. I check my mam's meds for her when she collects them now, as over the years I have seen too many mistakes.

    However, the big thing is too remember as humans we will make mistakes; neligence is a different matter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    PeakOutput wrote: »
    yes

    You'll have to do much better than that if you think that a medical procedure being carried out by a medical profession "just happens all on its own".


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Ok one example. I have an aged rellie that needs various meds. Any time there is a change in these meds I check up on the official website of the company, just to be sure. Normally all is game ball, but sometimes meds are prescribed that have dire warnings that they shouldnt be given in concert with other illnesses or other meds. If I wasnt around, then they could be in trouble.

    Ive seen this with others too. In one case of two drugs from the same company. One drug had to be cleared from the system before the next one could be given. Dire warnings in bold not to go from one to the other. Never mind mixing the two. Now one doesnt have to have a medical degree to be able to read, but the doctor in this case just didnt know enough and these were a common med for the illness.

    As I say patient knowledge and involvement in concert with the doctor is vital and helps both. So long as the patient isnt googling every little thing. Thats daft.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Let me underline the relevant section of the question here: Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated or misdiagnosed by a medical profession but chose not to report it?

    Surprisingly enough, the options follow the real question (not your imaginary question) precisely. Now, once again, at least try and discern a difference between both options.

    To copy and paste the exact question that you entered into the question section when making the poll:

    'Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated by a medical professional?'

    Seems simple enough. My 'imaginary' question is the exact question that you entered into the question section of the poll.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Let me underline the relevant section of the question here: Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated or misdiagnosed by a medical profession but chose not to report it?

    Surprisingly enough, the options follow the real question (not your imaginary question) precisely. Now, once again, at least try and discern a difference between both options.

    do you accept you have no idea weather or not your friends were treated wrongly? in fact it is overwhelmingly likely they were treated perfectly professionally and with best practice but something unforseeable happened

    i get my ears cleaned once a year or every two years every time the gp tells me in a small number of cases the procedure can puncture an ear drum now the chances of this happen are pretty small

    now compare this to someone having a heart transplant, the chances of something going wrong are far higher

    you woul dbe more likely to call the gp who bursts your ear drum incompetent than you would be to call the heart surgeon whos patient just died but they are the same thing. the fact that they happened is not evidence alone of negligence or unprofessional behviour like you seem to think


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    Father - left implements inside him after an operation. After effects: lung problems, constant infections, blood in the urine all the time, and loads more over 6 to 18 months of pure hell.
    Daughter: Mis-diagnosed one complaint and failed to completely see another.
    Brother: Starved of oxygen because the trainee nurse managed to wrap a cord around his head at birth. Effect: permanent brain damage and permanent epilepsy fits (grand-mal type. The worst kind.)
    Wife: Early birth, went to hospital - nurses wanted to send her back home, said it was nothing. While waiting for lift - she lost the baby in a room. (thats the short clean version)
    Myself: Missed numerous infections, though it was just me wanting off school at the time!
    Effect: Infection nearly killed me in 6 hours. Got to my heart and lungs. Parts were so badly damaged, it took years to recover.
    (A junior doctor and his senior doctor father BOTH covered up for each other)

    And thats only the start...

    Some were reported, some were not by my parents who thought at the time "it was not the done thing!"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 407 ✭✭OxfordComma


    The medical profession is one of the most difficult, high-pressured and exhausting around. The vast majority of doctors work brutal hours (especially in the early years) doing a job that requires an incredible amount of alertness, precision and carefulness. They have to be able to recall insane amounts of information on the spot.

    All of these things take their toll, and doctors are only human. Sadly, mistakes can, and will, happen. There's not much that can be done about this. It's incredibly difficult to work to your full potential when you've been slogging away all day and all night, for example.

    Having said that, it's easy to overlook the fact that medics always endeavour to do the best for their patients, and for the most part do an awful lot more good than harm.

    (By the way, the poll's very one-sided - what about an option for people who haven't been "badly treated" by doctors?)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Dionysus wrote: »
    You'll have to do much better than that if you think that a medical procedure being carried out by a medical profession "just happens all on its own".

    you werent talking about medical procedures happening on their own you were talking about mistakes and errors these do just happen


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Ok one example. I have an aged rellie that needs various meds. Any time there is a change in these meds I check up on the official website of the company, just to be sure. Normally all is game ball, but sometimes meds are prescribed that have dire warnings that they shouldnt be given in concert with other illnesses or other meds. If I wasnt around, then they could be in trouble.

    Ive seen this with others too. In one case of two drugs from the same company. One drug had to be cleared from the system before the next one could be given. Dire warnings in bold not to go from one to the other. Never mind mixing the two. Now one doesnt have to have a medical degree to be able to read, but the doctor in this case just didnt know enough and these were a common med for the illness.

    As I say patient knowledge and involvement in concert with the doctor is vital and helps both. So long as the patient isnt googling every little thing. Thats daft.

    All that's very frustrating and just a case of poor record keeping/sharing. Whenever my granny or some other family members are diagnosed with anything they're told to come back in a few days with all their prescription meds so the doc can figure out what they can or can't take. Surely all that should be easily accessible like?
    But hey, what would I know? :P


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Medical cockups have a scientific name: "Iatrogenic disease"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    PeakOutput wrote: »
    you werent talking about medical procedures happening on their own you were talking about mistakes and errors these do just happen

    This is very, very unlikely if the person doing the procedure has done his research on the patient properly and prepared properly beforehand. This thread is trying to get a feel for the number of people who have paid the consequences for such medical mistakes and not reported them.

    The amount of defensiveness in this thread of the medical profession is something like the defensiveness of the Catholic Church in the 1950s. The very fact of questioning that profession seems to be causing a bit of apoplexy to some people here.

    Personally, the idea that there could be a lot more mistakes made by medical professions than is officially recognised is worth talking about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭bleg


    There probably are. That is why the medical profession is now being taught to say "I don't know" if they don't know. This was unspeakable 20 years ago. Error models are being brought in to catch mistakes before they happen. The key is putting all the checks and balances in place so that somewhere along the line an error is caught.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Dionysus wrote: »
    This is very, very unlikely if the person doing the procedure has done his research on the patient properly and prepared properly beforehand. This thread is trying to get a feel for the number of people who have paid the consequences for such medical mistakes and not reported them.

    The amount of defensiveness in this thread of the medical profession is something like the defensiveness of the Catholic Church in the 1950s. The very fact of questioning that profession seems to be causing a bit of apoplexy to some people here.

    Personally, the idea that there could be a lot more mistakes made by medical professions than is officially recognised is worth talking about.

    so your just going to ignore my previous post then?

    im not defending the medical industry im just not accepting they did anything wrong on your say so

    anyone shown to be negligent should be fired and struck off but your throwing around accusations about htings you have no idea about


  • Posts: 18,046 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dinner wrote: »
    Great poll options. 'Have you been wrongly treated by a medical professional?. Yes or Yes.'

    Thread isn't about whether or not you've been wrongly treated.. It's about reporting it when it happens.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    PeakOutput wrote: »
    how do you know the doctors involved with your friends did anything unprofessional?

    Because in all three cases other medical professions were consulted immediately and they said that the previous people had messed it up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Yes, and I/they chose to report it
    Thread isn't about whether or not you've been wrongly treated.. It's about reporting it when it happens.

    Thank you!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    amacachi wrote: »
    All that's very frustrating and just a case of poor record keeping/sharing. Whenever my granny or some other family members are diagnosed with anything they're told to come back in a few days with all their prescription meds so the doc can figure out what they can or can't take. Surely all that should be easily accessible like?
    But hey, what would I know? :P
    That can be a part of it alright, but in the examples I gave it was the same doctors involved. Its just gotten so complex and there are so many drugs coming out that it must be a nightmare for doctors to constantly keep up to speed. They're often taking the pharma reps advice and advertising on face value. Naturally with the workload.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Because in all three cases other medical professions were consulted immediately and they said that the previous people had messed it up.

    i didnt ask you had they messed up i asked you how do you know they were unprofessional?

    because they messed up is not an answer


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Personally, the idea that there could be a lot more mistakes made by medical professions than is officially recognised is worth talking about.

    It is well known that there is a vast under-reporting of medical 'errors' and there are attemots, particularly in medical education, to right this wrong. And it is an area that MUST be talked about.

    The problem with your OP (and poll) is that you assume that every (or even most) adverse reaction, misdiagnosis, poor outcome to be as a result of a 'mistake'; that is entirely incorrect. A doctor can do everything perfectly and can come to an incorrect diagnosis or a patient can have a poor outcome.

    So while this is an area that needs serious discussion, that serious discussion will probably not be had in the context of your OP or your poll. And your decision to post it in this forum probably says it all about what you sought to achieve from this.....:rolleyes:


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