Medical cockups: more common than officially recognised?

Dionysus

In the past two months three people I know have been put in severe pain because of medical mistakes: by a podiatrist, a consultant-surgeon, and a dentist.

In all cases the medical people in question apologised that the patients were suffering - which is, of course, different to admitting 'I messed-up' (their insurance companies would probably go ballistic if they did that). All three "professionals" had the same line: "these things can happen" or "this is rare, but happens" etc.

In all three cases the people involved refused to sue, chiefly because they accepted that everybody makes mistakes in their jobs but also because they had suffered enough from it and wanted to get on with their lives asap.


So, I'm now wondering is there a hidden Ireland of people who have suffered silently from members of the medical profession being less than professional? There should be an official record of these mess-ups because it really would show up the true degree of professionalism in the medical profession and question their fees.

Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated or misdiagnosed by a medical profession but chose not to report it?

minidazzler

Prove they were cock-ups?

Contrary to what you may believe, these things DO just happen. Humans are not infallible, and the people in question are alive. So no need to complain.

AnonoBoy

I was shagging a nurse for a while last year and then without warning she stopped answering my calls. When I met her again she accused me of cheating on her which was just not true.

So I would answer Yes to your poll good Sir, she treated me very wrongly indeed.


Also - medical cockup? Yup that's what I was doing to her alright!

Dionysus

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

minidazzler wrote: »

Prove they were cock-ups?

Contrary to what you may believe, these things DO just happen. Humans are not infallible, and the people in question are alive. So no need to complain.

They "do just happen", all on their own?

Dinner

Great poll options. 'Have you been wrongly treated by a medical professional?. Yes or Yes.'

seanybiker

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

Me twin brother got the wrong tooth pulled years ago, root and all. It looked mental.
These things do just happen though. Sound of your mates not to sue, to many people nowadays suing because someone farted in the same county as them.

kowloon

Know someone who had parts removed unecessarily, but that was a big deal and made it to the news a good while back.

Otherwise it's all small things, like a junior doctor giving someone a huge dose of insulin because they misread the paperwork. These things happen, and people working in frontline medicine mess up far less than the rest of us; the consequences of messing up are too high.

I don't think we can expect anymore from them, particularly with the long hours that they have to work.

PeakOutput

Dionysus wrote: »

members of the medical profession being less than professional?

how do you know the doctors involved with your friends did anything unprofessional?

Wibbs

In my family? Yes. More than once. One involving a lawsuit. And we have docs in the family too, so you would think we would have better access to info. In others? Yes many times. Against that Ive also seen and heard of great successes. The failures stand out more.

The medical profession is a very challenging and incredibly complex job. People will make mistakes. Too many patients don't involve themselves in their care. Its not just the doctors and nurses at fault in this.

Antibiotics are a good example. We have antibiotic resistant bacteria, because of over prescription. Yes the doctors should have been much more cautious, but when every second patient demands antibiotics for every bloody thing it was a recipe for disaster. Antibiotics have zero effect on viruses. Only bacteria, so unless you have a bacterial infection serious enough to require them, then dont bloody ask for them or take them. I think doctors should be much more proactive in telling people to eff off when the ask for them. I know a woman who has gotten them for every bloody thing shes suffered in the last 20 years and her doctor keeps handing them out like smarties. Ever stronger ones too because he has to at this stage. Daft. But it is changing thank god and the doctors are driving that change.

IMHO a similar potential future minefield at the moment are anti depression medications. They are an incredibly useful tool that make some peoples lives livable and indeed may save their very lives. But the antibiotic model seems at play here too. People with low level mental issues(sometimes very low level) are being given these medications where they shouldnt be IMHO. Again a lot are demanding them. The pill for every ill, mothers little helper etc.

When that study came out that showed SSRI meds were barely above placebo in effect(with waaay more side effects), the anti shrink unsceintific hippie types were all "ha I told you so!". Bollocks. The study showed they were not much use with mild depression(which is a v diff illness to major depression). They were very useful, if not vital with severe cases.The hippies forget that bit though.

Which comes back to my point. There should be a lot fewer people on these meds than currently. Other avenues should be looked at first. Or I fear we may have worse problems in otherwise "normal" people down the line. Including(and this wont be popular) the Kick up the bloody arse (tm) therapy. Which includes such procedures as the "Get off your arse, engage your social life and your physical life and live like a human is meant to"(tm) therapy. But thats an explanation and rant for another day....

PeakOutput

Dionysus wrote: »

They "do just happen", all on their own?

yes

sponsoredwalk

Where is the No button, and where is the choice to say this poll is utterly stupid?

Dionysus

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

Dinner wrote: »

Great poll options. 'Have you been wrongly treated by a medical professional?. Yes or Yes.'

Let me underline the relevant section of the question here: Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated or misdiagnosed by a medical profession but chose not to report it?

Surprisingly enough, the options follow the real question (not your imaginary question) precisely. Now, once again, at least try and discern a difference between both options.

Odysseus

As pointed out above, all medical professionals are human, yes mistakes happen. I work in a medical facility, though we do not carry out any procedures, but I see mistakes with meds often enough. I check my mam's meds for her when she collects them now, as over the years I have seen too many mistakes.

However, the big thing is too remember as humans we will make mistakes; neligence is a different matter.

Dionysus

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

PeakOutput wrote: »

yes

You'll have to do much better than that if you think that a medical procedure being carried out by a medical profession "just happens all on its own".

Wibbs

Ok one example. I have an aged rellie that needs various meds. Any time there is a change in these meds I check up on the official website of the company, just to be sure. Normally all is game ball, but sometimes meds are prescribed that have dire warnings that they shouldnt be given in concert with other illnesses or other meds. If I wasnt around, then they could be in trouble.

Ive seen this with others too. In one case of two drugs from the same company. One drug had to be cleared from the system before the next one could be given. Dire warnings in bold not to go from one to the other. Never mind mixing the two. Now one doesnt have to have a medical degree to be able to read, but the doctor in this case just didnt know enough and these were a common med for the illness.

As I say patient knowledge and involvement in concert with the doctor is vital and helps both. So long as the patient isnt googling every little thing. Thats daft.

Dinner

Dionysus wrote: »

Let me underline the relevant section of the question here: Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated or misdiagnosed by a medical profession but chose not to report it?

Surprisingly enough, the options follow the real question (not your imaginary question) precisely. Now, once again, at least try and discern a difference between both options.

To copy and paste the exact question that you entered into the question section when making the poll:

'Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated by a medical professional?'

Seems simple enough. My 'imaginary' question is the exact question that you entered into the question section of the poll.

PeakOutput

Dionysus wrote: »

Let me underline the relevant section of the question here: Have you, or somebody you know, been wrongly treated or misdiagnosed by a medical profession but chose not to report it?

Surprisingly enough, the options follow the real question (not your imaginary question) precisely. Now, once again, at least try and discern a difference between both options.

do you accept you have no idea weather or not your friends were treated wrongly? in fact it is overwhelmingly likely they were treated perfectly professionally and with best practice but something unforseeable happened

i get my ears cleaned once a year or every two years every time the gp tells me in a small number of cases the procedure can puncture an ear drum now the chances of this happen are pretty small

now compare this to someone having a heart transplant, the chances of something going wrong are far higher

you woul dbe more likely to call the gp who bursts your ear drum incompetent than you would be to call the heart surgeon whos patient just died but they are the same thing. the fact that they happened is not evidence alone of negligence or unprofessional behviour like you seem to think

Biggins

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

Father - left implements inside him after an operation. After effects: lung problems, constant infections, blood in the urine all the time, and loads more over 6 to 18 months of pure hell.
Daughter: Mis-diagnosed one complaint and failed to completely see another.
Brother: Starved of oxygen because the trainee nurse managed to wrap a cord around his head at birth. Effect: permanent brain damage and permanent epilepsy fits (grand-mal type. The worst kind.)
Wife: Early birth, went to hospital - nurses wanted to send her back home, said it was nothing. While waiting for lift - she lost the baby in a room. (thats the short clean version)
Myself: Missed numerous infections, though it was just me wanting off school at the time!
Effect: Infection nearly killed me in 6 hours. Got to my heart and lungs. Parts were so badly damaged, it took years to recover.
(A junior doctor and his senior doctor father BOTH covered up for each other)

And thats only the start...

Some were reported, some were not by my parents who thought at the time "it was not the done thing!"

OxfordComma

The medical profession is one of the most difficult, high-pressured and exhausting around. The vast majority of doctors work brutal hours (especially in the early years) doing a job that requires an incredible amount of alertness, precision and carefulness. They have to be able to recall insane amounts of information on the spot.

All of these things take their toll, and doctors are only human. Sadly, mistakes can, and will, happen. There's not much that can be done about this. It's incredibly difficult to work to your full potential when you've been slogging away all day and all night, for example.

Having said that, it's easy to overlook the fact that medics always endeavour to do the best for their patients, and for the most part do an awful lot more good than harm.

(By the way, the poll's very one-sided - what about an option for people who haven't been "badly treated" by doctors?)

PeakOutput

Dionysus wrote: »

You'll have to do much better than that if you think that a medical procedure being carried out by a medical profession "just happens all on its own".

you werent talking about medical procedures happening on their own you were talking about mistakes and errors these do just happen

amacachi

Wibbs wrote: »

Ok one example. I have an aged rellie that needs various meds. Any time there is a change in these meds I check up on the official website of the company, just to be sure. Normally all is game ball, but sometimes meds are prescribed that have dire warnings that they shouldnt be given in concert with other illnesses or other meds. If I wasnt around, then they could be in trouble.

Ive seen this with others too. In one case of two drugs from the same company. One drug had to be cleared from the system before the next one could be given. Dire warnings in bold not to go from one to the other. Never mind mixing the two. Now one doesnt have to have a medical degree to be able to read, but the doctor in this case just didnt know enough and these were a common med for the illness.

As I say patient knowledge and involvement in concert with the doctor is vital and helps both. So long as the patient isnt googling every little thing. Thats daft.

All that's very frustrating and just a case of poor record keeping/sharing. Whenever my granny or some other family members are diagnosed with anything they're told to come back in a few days with all their prescription meds so the doc can figure out what they can or can't take. Surely all that should be easily accessible like?
But hey, what would I know? :P

biko

Medical cockups have a scientific name: "Iatrogenic disease"

Dionysus

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

PeakOutput wrote: »

you werent talking about medical procedures happening on their own you were talking about mistakes and errors these do just happen

This is very, very unlikely if the person doing the procedure has done his research on the patient properly and prepared properly beforehand. This thread is trying to get a feel for the number of people who have paid the consequences for such medical mistakes and not reported them.

The amount of defensiveness in this thread of the medical profession is something like the defensiveness of the Catholic Church in the 1950s. The very fact of questioning that profession seems to be causing a bit of apoplexy to some people here.

Personally, the idea that there could be a lot more mistakes made by medical professions than is officially recognised is worth talking about.

bleg

There probably are. That is why the medical profession is now being taught to say "I don't know" if they don't know. This was unspeakable 20 years ago. Error models are being brought in to catch mistakes before they happen. The key is putting all the checks and balances in place so that somewhere along the line an error is caught.

PeakOutput

Dionysus wrote: »

This is very, very unlikely if the person doing the procedure has done his research on the patient properly and prepared properly beforehand. This thread is trying to get a feel for the number of people who have paid the consequences for such medical mistakes and not reported them.

The amount of defensiveness in this thread of the medical profession is something like the defensiveness of the Catholic Church in the 1950s. The very fact of questioning that profession seems to be causing a bit of apoplexy to some people here.

Personally, the idea that there could be a lot more mistakes made by medical professions than is officially recognised is worth talking about.

so your just going to ignore my previous post then?

im not defending the medical industry im just not accepting they did anything wrong on your say so

anyone shown to be negligent should be fired and struck off but your throwing around accusations about htings you have no idea about

Dinner

Dinner wrote: »

Great poll options. 'Have you been wrongly treated by a medical professional?. Yes or Yes.'

Thread isn't about whether or not you've been wrongly treated.. It's about reporting it when it happens.

Dionysus

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

PeakOutput wrote: »

how do you know the doctors involved with your friends did anything unprofessional?

Because in all three cases other medical professions were consulted immediately and they said that the previous people had messed it up.

Dionysus

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

Deleted User wrote: »

Thread isn't about whether or not you've been wrongly treated.. It's about reporting it when it happens.

Thank you!

Wibbs

amacachi wrote: »

All that's very frustrating and just a case of poor record keeping/sharing. Whenever my granny or some other family members are diagnosed with anything they're told to come back in a few days with all their prescription meds so the doc can figure out what they can or can't take. Surely all that should be easily accessible like?
But hey, what would I know? :P

That can be a part of it alright, but in the examples I gave it was the same doctors involved. Its just gotten so complex and there are so many drugs coming out that it must be a nightmare for doctors to constantly keep up to speed. They're often taking the pharma reps advice and advertising on face value. Naturally with the workload.

PeakOutput

Dionysus wrote: »

Because in all three cases other medical professions were consulted immediately and they said that the previous people had messed it up.

i didnt ask you had they messed up i asked you how do you know they were unprofessional?

because they messed up is not an answer

drkpower

Dionysus wrote: »

Personally, the idea that there could be a lot more mistakes made by medical professions than is officially recognised is worth talking about.

It is well known that there is a vast under-reporting of medical 'errors' and there are attemots, particularly in medical education, to right this wrong. And it is an area that MUST be talked about.

The problem with your OP (and poll) is that you assume that every (or even most) adverse reaction, misdiagnosis, poor outcome to be as a result of a 'mistake'; that is entirely incorrect. A doctor can do everything perfectly and can come to an incorrect diagnosis or a patient can have a poor outcome.

So while this is an area that needs serious discussion, that serious discussion will probably not be had in the context of your OP or your poll. And your decision to post it in this forum probably says it all about what you sought to achieve from this.....:rolleyes:

Wibbs

PeakOutput wrote: »

i didnt ask you had they messed up i asked you how do you know they were unprofessional?

because they messed up is not an answer

I agree, but we're arguing over semantics a bit too.

Someone can be acting in good faith and professionally and cock up. Of the cases I have been close to, a pure lack of professionalism was the issue in one case. The rest were cockups.

Kurtosis

biko wrote: »

Medical cockups have a scientific name: "Iatrogenic disease"

Hmmm, not strictly speaking. While medical cockups would be covered by iatrogenic disease, it can also arise from perfectly legitimate and appropriate medical treatment, for example drug side effects.

PeakOutput

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree, but we're arguing over semantics a bit too.

Someone can be acting in good faith and professionally and cock up. Of the cases I have been close to, a pure lack of professionalism was the issue in one case. The rest were cockups.

ok this might help explain my point

every summer i work in the states as a parachute packer(this is actually true) and i pack thousands of parachutes over 3/4 months

i am good at it

no matter how good i am there will still be parachutes that dont open. i do the same thing over and over again day in day out but one i a thousand(thats been the ratio so far for me anyway) still have a malfunction and dont open. this does not make me unprofessional or neligent(and i know you understand this wibbs im trying to make the op understand)

Son Of A Vidic

I've been in the business and the old boys network is alive and well. They're great at circling the wagons when need be. A good friend of mine in London was forced out of his job for 'blowing the whistle' on an incompetent surgeon. My mate was an Anaesthatist and he eventually ended up moving to Australia, because his career in the U.K was virtually ended by his honesty.

astrofool

All incidents should be reported, but then, a doctor should be able to warn a patient that they will always be using their best judgement, and that judgement will sometimes be wrong, and cause massive problems for the patient. Limits should be set on payouts when things go wrong.

Otherwise we risk destroying the medical industry completely via lawsuits, it won't be worth anyone's time to practice medicine.

drkpower

astrofool wrote: »

All incidents should be reported, but then, a doctor should be able to warn a patient that they will always be using their best judgement, and that judgement will sometimes be wrong, and cause massive problems for the patient. Limits should be set on payouts when things go wrong.

Otherwise we risk destroying the medical industry completely via lawsuits, it won't be worth anyone's time to practice medicine.

Out of interest, what do you think the limits are now or what they should be? There is an extraordinary ignorance of what 'payouts' people get and what those 'payouts' are for.

astrofool

It's human life, it's always going to be hard to put a figure on. However, the figure should be the extra cost burden of the mistake, and paid out over their lifetime (imo). We have to start to accept that getting medically treated for anything is a risk, but not getting medically treated at all is a much greater risk.

RolandIRL

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

yes.
i was getting an ingrown toenail removed and the surgeon didn't remove the bed of the nail (which he should have). so i was stuck with an infection in my toe for months.
[/sobbing so much] i've been so traumatised by this experience [/sobbing so much]

well, i couldn't play sport for ages, and spent mucho money on bandages, gauze wrap, and the like. i know it's only minor but my toenail is permanently f**ked and it has grown at all since i got the bed removed, it's just a deformed looking toenail.

i have to go.... i'm shocked with all this trauma of explaining... :P

galwayrush

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

From personal experience, definitely yes.:(

token56

Personally yes, in terms of unprofessional like conduct. It was not reported by me but a nurse at the time said she would be making a formal complaint about what happened. I never checked it up as it was not really something that was worth the hastle, but I dont know if there ever was a complaint made or a wrap across the knuckles given. The whole issue is related to mental health care which in my opinion is absolutely dreadful at the moment but that is a topic for another day.

Within my family, well there was a significant cock-up made in a simple procedure on my sister, which lead to an extremely serious complication, and has left a perminant effect of her. Was this just human error or negligance on the part of the doctor? Both himself and our family know it was negligance, it was or less but not directly admitted and was very evident anyway. But it would be extremely difficult to prove in court and despite the doctor knowing he was at fault he wouldn't have just admitted had it been his career on the line which is fair enough, I can understand that. For this reason it wasn't offically reported or anything, but you can be guarnteed behind the scenes the doctor was given a good wrap across the knuckles anyway.

In general I would have pretty serious concerns regarding the quality of some doctors in one particular hospital at least, this is just from my own and my families personal experience.

drkpower

token56 wrote: »

Both himself and our family know it was negligance, it was or less but not directly admitted and was very evident anyway. But it would be extremely difficult to prove in court and despite the doctor knowing he was at fault he wouldn't have just admitted had it been his career on the line which is fair enough, I can understand that. .ut you can be guarnteed behind the scenes the doctor was given a good wrap across the knuckles anyway.

So, it was 'very evident'; the doctor knows it was negligence; you know it was negligence; your family knows it was negligence; it looks like his superiors knew it was negligence..... but it would be extremely difficult to prove in court....???!!

Does any of that add up?

Dudess

Yup. The doc whom my mum worked for ruptured my eardrum with one of those ear-examining yokes (I had a flu or bad sore throat or something and it was part of the overall examination) resulting in the most agonising abscess - three weeks of intense pain, chowing down mountains of painkillers/antibiotics, and getting it drained as an out-patient every couple of days.

Mr Benevolent

When do we get to the 'cock up' part? There should be talk of nurses in skimpy outfits, not pus-filled eardrum ruptures!

drkpower

Dudess wrote: »

Yup. The doc whom my mum worked for ruptured my eardrum with one of those ear-examining yokes (I had a flu or bad sore throat or something and it was part of the overall examination) resulting in the most agonising abscess - three weeks of intense pain, chowing down mountains of painkillers/antibiotics, and getting it drained as an out-patient every couple of days.

So why is that a medical cock-up rather than an unfortunate side effect of a medical procedure?

Dudess

Well it was a cock-up seeing as he pushed it in too far and was too rough... so to speak. :pac:

Mr Benevolent

drkpower wrote: »

So why is that a medical cock-up rather than an unfortunate side effect of a medical procedure?

And the difference is...

...just beyond your grasp.

astronige

Yes, and I/they chose to report it

i myself had bad treament from dentist.. and know of 2 cases of badpractise from doctors ...misdiagnosis both were of serious illnesses

drkpower

Dudess wrote: »

Well it was a cock-up seeing as he pushed it in too far and was too rough... so to speak. :pac:

I had a dental extraction that was really painful and it felt like the dentist was being very rough - it felt really sore for days afterwards.

Was that a 'dental cock-up' or an unfortunate & recognised adverse effect of a dental procedure?

Dudess

Hmmm... seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it. He inserted the instrument so aggressively that it caused quite a severe injury, the result of which was not absolutely devastating, but at the same time, it was no minor 48-hour bug either. Insertion of the instrument that way was obviously unprofessional of him.

drkpower wrote: »

I had a dental extraction that was really painful and it felt like the dentist was being very rough - it felt really sore for days afterwards.

"Felt like" - unpleasant I'm sure, but you're not comparing like with like.

drkpower

Dudess wrote: »

Hmmm... seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it. He inserted the instrument so aggressively that it caused quite a severe injury, the result of which was not absolutely devastating, but at the same time, it was no minor 48-hour bug either. Insertion of the instrument that way was obviously unprofessional of him.

"Felt like" - unpleasant I'm sure, but you're not comparing like with like.

And the dentist pulled my tooth out so aggressively that it caused me severe pain. Extraction of my tooth that way was obviously unprofessional of him.

I dont necessarily doubt your version of events - but the point is that medical procedures have adverse outcomes. Some examinations are not easy because of various anatomical and technical differences. Sometimes eardrums are perforated in the absence of any 'cock-up' merely because of the technical difficulty of the examination.