Guns for all

C_Dawg · 16-04-2010 09:00PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Why ?

Surely school children/airline passengers/ex-convicts/employees have as much (if not more) need to defend themselves as anyone else.

Convicts forfeit their rights when they chose to live a life of crime.

kowloon · 16-04-2010 09:04PM

The level of hysteria and myth that surrounds GUNS! baffles me.
I think people would be calmer and more level headed if everyone spent a day target shooting. An afternoon spent punching paper or smashing clays would clear away most of the illusions people have.
Guns are dangerous no doubt, but shown respect there's no reason a responsible person shouldn't be allowed own one. I wish drivers had the same attitude to safety that I see legal firearm owners display.

As for the weapons of criminals, they could take all the illegally imported guns off the street tomorrow and we would find them being improvised or manufactured from scratch. They run off Kalashnikov clones in Afghanistan with hand tools. Here anyone can walk into a builders suppliers and buy all the plumbing they need. They don't because they can get what they want easily enough on the market.

C_Dawg · 16-04-2010 09:05PM

Odysseus wrote: »

I didn't say you were, I said people in relation to the lifestyle reference to avoid aiming it at you specifically.

Right lets look at your idea, how does it work?

You spoke of situations, schools, airplanes etc, where it would be inapporpriate to carry a "weapon", I use that word as that is the context you are speaking of.

As I said earlier I have three "firearms" in my bedroom, and about 1,000 rounds of ammo in the house. Now in your view, where can I carry my "firearm" as a "weapon", in what context can I carry it. Am I allowed bring it to work? when I'm shopping? when I pop down my local?

Excatly what type of training do I need to under take? Safe use and ability to hit a target, defensive tactics, retention techniques? What am I going to be limited to? pistol or revolver? What caliber .22. 9mm, .45, .50cal? How many round can I cary?

The point I'm trying to meak is where is the line for self defense, and where do we place it?

If you need firearms for your work then of course you should be allowed to carry. I've already stated that I would like to see every member of AGS being armed.

As for the training requirements I'm in no place to lay down guidelines, I'm just a guy on a message board at the end of the day. But if the question is put to me I feel that anyone applying for a firearm licence for the the purpose of self defence should be able to handle the gun safely, be able to be accurate with it: shot placement is very important as a 45 used wrongly could only graze someone whereas a 22 used correctly can be lethal.

peasant · 16-04-2010 09:18PM

As somebody who has been trained on how to handle firearms (from pistol to rifle, machine gun and hand grenade) I would say that most of ye have no idea how bloody dangerous a handgun actually is.

Not to others ...to yourself and those around you.

holding the gun with the finger on the trigger ..one stumble and you shoot yourself or some innoccent bystander

forgetting to put the safety on and then sticking it in your pocket

emptying the gun and forgetting about the round in the chamber

All causes of countless accidents ...not to mention how easy it is to actually kill someone even though you probably didn't relly mean to do it

There's a reason why your bog standard conscript soldier was always given only a rifle and never a pistol as well.

C_Dawg · 16-04-2010 09:26PM

peasant wrote: »

As somebody who has been trained on how to handle firearms (from pistol to rifle, machine gun and hand grenade) I would say that most of ye have no idea how bloody dangerous a handgun actually is.

Aye I can see that training would have to be a top consideration

greyed · 16-04-2010 09:42PM

C_Dawg wrote: »

I don't have the brains for arguing stuff

...and you want us to give ye a gun?! :pac:

Mike 1972 · 16-04-2010 09:43PM

peasant wrote: »

forgetting to put the safety on and then sticking it in your pocket.

My favorite was the guy who used to sleep with a gun and a telephone beside his bed.

One night upon being woken by the telephone he picks up the gun and blows his brains out.

Odysseus · 16-04-2010 10:44PM

C_Dawg wrote: »

If you need firearms for your work then of course you should be allowed to carry. I've already stated that I would like to see every member of AGS being armed.

As for the training requirements I'm in no place to lay down guidelines, I'm just a guy on a message board at the end of the day. But if the question is put to me I feel that anyone applying for a firearm licence for the the purpose of self defence should be able to handle the gun safely, be able to be accurate with it: shot placement is very important as a 45 used wrongly could only graze someone whereas a 22 used correctly can be lethal.

See that is my point, your saying it should be legal to carry one for self defense, but you are being very vauge on it. Whilst I very comfortable around guns, I also know my limitations with them and the damage they can do. Due to the restrictive nature of Irish Law and Firearms, I'm interested in your idea, but to but fair, its a cop out to put such an idea out there, then pull back saying " I'm just a guy on a message board" etc. Whilst I'm no expert on guns, or self defense. They are areas I'm interested in for different reasons.

I'm all in favour of gun ownership, but not with the context you are speaking of, basically, I'm wondering how far you have thought this idea through. It doesn't appear to me that you have. I'm not trying to have a pop at you; I'm just interested in the what, the how, and the place you think that it should be legal for a person to carry a gun as a self defense weapon.

Nodin · 16-04-2010 10:46PM

C_Dawg wrote: »

I don't have the brains for arguing stuff or quoting figures so I decided to post here instead of in Politics.

If only others would follow your example.....

Kasabian · 16-04-2010 11:07PM

It's bad enough that some people have access to keyboards , giving them guns would just be madness

Herb Powell · 16-04-2010 11:25PM

kowloon wrote: »

The level of hysteria and myth that surrounds GUNS! baffles me.
I think people would be calmer and more level headed if everyone spent a day target shooting. An afternoon spent punching paper or smashing clays would clear away most of the illusions people have.
Guns are dangerous no doubt, but shown respect there's no reason a responsible person shouldn't be allowed own one. I wish drivers had the same attitude to safety that I see legal firearm owners display.

As for the weapons of criminals, they could take all the illegally imported guns off the street tomorrow and we would find them being improvised or manufactured from scratch. They run off Kalashnikov clones in Afghanistan with hand tools. Here anyone can walk into a builders suppliers and buy all the plumbing they need. They don't because they can get what they want easily enough on the market.

yeah, but one pull of a trigger and BAM, dead. we don't need them.

Odysseus · 16-04-2010 11:35PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

yeah, but one pull of a trigger and BAM, dead. we don't need them.

We don't need them for the OP's reason, or are you saying we should have them full stop, i.e. sporting and hunting reasons?

C_Dawg · 16-04-2010 11:36PM

Odysseus wrote: »

I'm not trying to have a pop at you

Haha no hassle at all mate, I know where're you're coming from, you've been one of a few to give serious replies without throwing in a Simpsons quote :-)

InTheTrees · 16-04-2010 11:47PM

force majeure wrote: »

As for needing protection myself not really as I am 6'4 and 15st and that does it.

and this makes you bulletproof how exactly?

Manic Moran · 17-04-2010 03:19AM

An interesting example recently in Ohio.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=133951&catid=3

Ashtabula County: Judge tells residents to "Arm themselves"

JEFFERSON -- In the ongoing financial crisis in Ashtabula County, the Sheriff's Department has been cut from 112 to 49 deputies. With deputies assigned to transport prisoners, serve warrants and other duties, only one patrol car is assigned to patrol the entire county of 720 square miles.

<snip>

Johnson said he is suing the commissioners to get a determination of whether he should use his limited budget to carry out obligations defined by law or put more patrol cars on the streets.

<snip>

Ashtabula County Common Pleas Judge Alfred Mackey was asked what residents should do to protect themselves and their families with the severe cutback in law enforcement.

"Arm themselves," the judge said. "Be very careful, be vigilant, get in touch with your neighbors, because we're going to have to look after each other."

Ashtabula County gun dealers and firearms instructors tell WKYC their business has really picked up since the Sheriff's Department cutbacks began some months ago.

"That's exactly why they are coming, so that they can protect themselves," says Tracy Williams, a certified firearms instructor in Jefferson. "They don't feel that they are protected. They want to be able to protect themselves."

On other matters:

Sure you might think you would be more protected if a burglar breaks into your house at night but chances are that burglar will also have a gun if anybody can get one

The evidence provided by the US on the matter indicates this does not happen: Burglars tend to play it safe and if they think the resident may be armed, they'll do their damndest to avoid entering a house which has said resident in it. Sure, they've got a gun, but they're risking their lives on the fact that the resident isn't a better shot than they are whilst having the home turf advantage. As a result, only some 10% of burglaries in the US happen when you're home. As opposed to some 55% in the UK, I presume Ireland would be similar to the UK.

shouldnt children be allowed (maybe even encouraged) to bring guns to school

Not too many years ago in the US, this used to be routine. Never any hassle.

Shouldnt airline passengers be allowed carry too ?

The argument against that is that the effects of discharging firearms within a flying aircraft can be, erm, interesting.

Shouldnt employees be allowed to bring guns to work ?

There are several legal cases on the matter going on in the US right now. Many employers have a 'no guns' policy. The debates are 'in the workplace' or 'in the parking lot'. There is no reason to believe that your workplace is any safer than anywhere else, after all. My current employer actually has no prohibitions on being armed, but I am assigned to a federal office building so I'm prohibited on that score.

And whats this nonsense about denying guns to convicted felons -surely convicted felons need to defend themselves too ?

This also is undergoing legal challenge right now. The theory being that it is unfair do deny anyone who is free a Constitutional right. Certain misdemeanour convictions also prohibit firearms ownership, several of those laws have been struck by the courts recently.

I would feel much safer on the street knowing that no-one else had a gun

Actually, you only know that no other law-abiding people have a gun, even in Ireland. However, is it the law-abiding people you need to worry about?

NTM

AgileMyth · 17-04-2010 03:58AM

The USA has over five times the murder rate of Ireland...end of.

minidazzler · 17-04-2010 04:05AM

I don't believe in any right to bear arms.

Though I do think it should be a privilage that can be taken away from certain people.

x PyRo · 17-04-2010 04:13AM

Guns don't kill people..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC03hmS1Brk

He does.

Manic Moran · 17-04-2010 04:44AM

Speaking of guns in schools, for those who are curious, the Colorado Court of Appeals today reversed the dismissal of a challenge against Colordo University's prohibition on concealed firearms on campus.

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/opinion/2010/09CA1230.pdf

NTM

digme · 17-04-2010 04:47AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Speaking of guns in schools, for those who are curious, the Colorado Court of Appeals today threw out Colorado University's prohibition on concealed carriage of firearms by students.

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/opinion/2010/09CA1230.pdf

NTM

lol ur wet dream come true moran.

Manic Moran · 17-04-2010 06:47AM

digme wrote: »

lol ur wet dream come true moran.

I don't live in Colorado. Doesn't affect me much.

No university which authorises students to be armed has had a problem yet.

NTM

nice1franko · 17-04-2010 06:55AM

I think you're forgetting OP, if *everyone* had guns then that includes the scumbags, junkies, drunk people (imagine Temple Bar at 2 am?? It'd be like the OK Corral), testerone fueled silly younglads with something to prove etc

Basically, instead of getting mugged you'd be getting held up at gunpoint -or unceremoniously shot in the back before having your pockets emptied.

Herb Powell · 17-04-2010 08:51AM

InTheTrees wrote: »

and this makes you bulletproof how exactly?

well he'd only need to be bulletproof if there's guns wouldn't he?:)

17-04-2010 10:30AM

The Shtig wrote: »

We can't say "but we need one to protect ourselfs!" That's the problems with nukes. Countries will want them in their aresnal to protect incase of a nuclear attack against them creating a recipe for disaster.

I think you'll find that nukes have made the world a much safer place.. They stops countries going to war because it's too dangerous.
Nash's Equilibrium.

whadabouchasir · 17-04-2010 11:51AM

If you make guns more freely available then the amount of people being killed by guns will increase.According to the Irish Times in the US firearms accounted for 67% of the 18,573 homicides there in 2006.So if guns were common place in Irealnd it seems logical that the murder rate would increase,so the country would actually become more dangerous.

Greyfox · 17-04-2010 12:08PM

nice1franko wrote: »

I think you're forgetting OP, if *everyone* had guns then that includes the scumbags, junkies, drunk people (imagine Temple Bar at 2 am?? It'd be like the OK Corral), testerone fueled silly younglads with something to prove etc

Basically, instead of getting mugged you'd be getting held up at gunpoint -or unceremoniously shot in the back before having your pockets emptied.

Exactly, some junkie scumbag would have the power to kill you within 2 seconds, it would be over so quick their would be very little chance of him getting caught for his crime. With guns crime becomes a lot easier for criminals

orourkeda · 17-04-2010 12:08PM

Guns dont kill. People Kill.

Guns protect people against people with smaller guns.

I love american dad.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 17-04-2010 12:25PM

Everybody already has the right to own a firearm op, but to defend yourself? that's just thoughtless to be quite honest.

Galvasean · 17-04-2010 12:42PM

I used to think guns for all would be a good idea. Then I remembered how dumb the average Irish person is. We'd be wiped out in a week.

It wasn't me! · 17-04-2010 01:31PM

Jeffrey Lively Sweatshop wrote: »

Everybody already has the right to own a firearm op, but to defend yourself? that's just thoughtless to be quite honest.

Not explicitly true. You have a legal right to own property. Therefore, you have the right to purchase a firearm, that being to hand over money and thenceforth to call it yours, because nobody else can have it. However, you are not entitled to possession of it. Provided you are not disentitled under the firearms act, you may then apply for a firearms certificate to enable you to use, possess and carry that firearm in the pursuit of legal shooting activities. The firearmsa act goes on to detail the circumstances in which a Garda Superintendent may then grant the certificate in respect of your application. The key thing to note is that the Superintendent may grant the certificate. He is under no obligation to do so, legally. You do not have any right, regardless of whether you fulfill the necessary criteria, to take possession of the firearm you own or to receive a certificate to allow you to do so. It's an important distinction.

Guns for all

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