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So I now officially hate UPC!

2

Comments

  • #32
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Magnet (Rory) wrote: »
    I can understand the issue here but it must be noted that there is a big difference between a company that talks about unlimited and invokes FUP on a constant basis, and a company that has never invoked the policy.

    We have to give ourselves some space on these things.

    Can you tell us what exactly this means?


  • #33
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    dub45 wrote: »
    Can you tell us what exactly this means?

    We really cant nail ourselves to the floor on something like this, if somebody totally goes beyond the beyonds (especially in the 50Mb areas) we have to have some space to rein them in.

    In saying this I have to stipulate that we have never done this and in all my time with Magnet we have never even talked about it.


  • #34
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    While I can appreaciate your situation what about a situation like Smarts' customers recently experienced?

    For years Smart were excellent in relation to the downloading issue and then all a takeover and an incredibly hamfisted implementation of a so called fup (without any apparent notifications) and all of a sudden customers were being throttled and seriously inconvenienced.

    The trouble with fup's is that it is open to the company to interpret them as they wish and the customer has no comeback when that interpretation changes.


  • #35
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    And can I once again remind readers of this?

    The Comreg policy on unlimited products:

    Internet

    My Service Provider has advertised an "unlimited package" - what does this mean for me?

    A number of telephone and broadband packages being offered are described as ‘unlimited’. In this context the word ‘unlimited’ would normally be taken to mean that a subscriber, having agreed to pay a set price, may make as many calls or spend as much time online as he or she wishes. However, some service contracts qualify the meaning of ‘unlimited’ by stating that it is subject to an ‘acceptable’ or ‘fair’ level of use by the subscriber. This is referred to as a “fair usage policy” in some advertising.

    ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

    Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

    ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

    ComReg advises consumers to carefully read the terms and conditions of their contracts and to be aware of the particular limits or thresholds that apply before purchasing.

    http://www.askcomreg.ie/internet/my_provider_has_advertised_an_unlimited_package_%E2%80%93_what_does_that_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp


  • #36
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    dub45 wrote: »
    While I can appreaciate your situation what about a situation like Smarts' customers recently experienced?

    For years Smart were excellent in relation to the downloading issue and then all of a sudden a takeover and an incredibly hamfisted implementation of a so called fup (without any apparent notifications) and all of a sudden customers were being throttled and seriously inconvenienced.

    The trouble with fup's is that it is open to the company to interpret them as they wish and the customer has no comeback when that interpretation changes.

    Fair point and no-one can tell the future, but considering no other ISP has a FUP as lenient as ours I would urge people to place us at the top of this particular league table.


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  • #37
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Rory,

    I can understand ISP's not wanting to mention the FUP limit as some users will use that as a target every month. However, it's still purposely ambiguous.

    How about, pick your FUP limit then advertise 50% of that in the contracts [I don't mean just Magnet]. Therefore if people aim for the FUP limit, they are "happy" and so is the ISP, to an extent?

    If a few people go over the FUP but don't hit your real [hidden] FUP limit, you don't bat an eyelid, giving the impression of a great company.

    It's all about being open and transparent. Or at the very least, appearing to be open and transparent.

    I've yet to see a "contract" from an ISP [and I've been with many] that would hold up in court.


  • #38
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Rory,

    I can understand ISP's not wanting to mention the FUP limit as some users will use that as a target every month. However, it's still purposely ambiguous.

    How about, pick your FUP limit then advertise 50% of that in the contracts [I don't mean just Magnet]. Therefore if people aim for the FUP limit, they are "happy" and so is the ISP, to an extent?

    If a few people go over the FUP but don't hit your real [hidden] FUP limit, you don't bat an eyelid, giving the impression of a great company.

    It's all about being open and transparent. Or at the very least, appearing to be open and transparent.

    I've yet to see a "contract" from an ISP [and I've been with many] that would hold up in court.

    Most companies (and not just ips) would of course know that the average person cannot afford to take them to court.


  • #39
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    RangeR wrote: »
    Rory,

    I can understand ISP's not wanting to mention the FUP limit as some users will use that as a target every month. However, it's still purposely ambiguous.

    How about, pick your FUP limit then advertise 50% of that in the contracts [I don't mean just Magnet]. Therefore if people aim for the FUP limit, they are "happy" and so is the ISP, to an extent?

    If a few people go over the FUP but don't hit your real [hidden] FUP limit, you don't bat an eyelid, giving the impression of a great company.

    It's all about being open and transparent. Or at the very least, appearing to be open and transparent.

    I've yet to see a "contract" from an ISP [and I've been with many] that would hold up in court.

    Considering we have never done anything on this (no charges, no letters, no forced upgrades) I really don't see a need to stipulate figures at this point.

    We can't tell what is to happen in the future so we really can't put ourselves into a corner on this, especially when other ISP's are clearly wide of anybody's interpretation of the word "unlimited" but are still being permitted to use the word.


  • #40
    techdiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭techdiver


    dub45 wrote: »
    And can I once again remind readers of this?

    The Comreg policy on unlimited products:



    http://www.askcomreg.ie/internet/my_provider_has_advertised_an_unlimited_package_%E2%80%93_what_does_that_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp

    I would consider the UPC FUP as quite ambiguous as they don not clearly set out any usage limit in it.


  • #41
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    Firstly thanks to everyone who has been supportive, I wasn't even really expecting reply's, I just had to rant this somewhere as it made me so angry.
    dub45 wrote: »
    Under the rules of the dd scheme (which admittedly in my experience upc dont pay a whole lot of attention to!) you are entitled to a bill fourteen days in advance of it hitting your account.

    Did you not receive any bills for the new amount?

    It seems a strange attitude that its ok to disrupt other users if you are paying €99 a month:rolleyes:

    I get my bills online thereby saving UPC money so they can post me double the spam.
    I was also paying by direct debt and just (in retrospect stupidly) presumed that my bills would always be the same.
    kingtorres9 wrote: »
    Nutterguy

    Just like to say thanks a lot for your thread. I was strongly looking at switchimg from eircom to UPC for the *unlimited* download pack, but after what happened to you they can go and f themselves. You need to keep this thread going to warn others.

    I hope someone from UPC reads through a few threads and reads this one because you lost customers here.

    Who said 1 man cant make a difference.

    After taking to Magnet and having a few friends on Magnet lines I think they might be a good bet. I'm not saying your guaranteed no problems, or even a good service but at least they won't bend you over like UPC for using more than 250Gb/month. Having said that, if your SURE your never going to go over 250Gb/month then UPC are ok.
    Mister Gooey wrote: »
    How can you use up 400Gb data usage per month? That is over 13Gb per day!

    This:
    SickBoy wrote: »
    Maybe there's more than one person using the interweb in his house?

    There are two.

    I personally also do backups to Amazon S3 storage, Flickr, watch a lot of BBC HD and other HD shows.
    But as Techdiver says below, this has nothing to do with what I'm using the connection for, I could be refreshing facebook a million times a second or downloading 4Chan or torrenting, it wouldn't be and isn't relevant!
    techdiver wrote: »
    That is neither here nor there with this issue. Data is data for the purposes of the supposed download cap. UPC don't cite any issue with copyright infringement.

    Don't benchmark what you perceive as normal usage against what other people use. As I explained previously I could easily use that amount of data on a daily basis.
    Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »
    ...

    Most of these problems can be avoided if people understood the contracts they are entering. Most people don't bother reading the contracts at all and just sign.

    OP did thank you!
    Fair usage policy is not ment to be a term meaning we have a hidden cap but don't want to tell you about it! Magnet have a fair usage policy as well but they have told me that they have never evoked it, I of course cannot verify this but I do have it in writing from them that they do not have a problem with me downloading 300-400Gb/month.

    UPC do have a Cap, it's 250Gb/month. This does not even seem related to fair usage, as I do most of my usage at about 2am-6am.
    Jumpy wrote: »
    Have you had your line tested yet? Just remember its "up to" 24mb. I have 24mb with Smart and I only get 14 of that due to my distance from the exchange.

    You will only get 24mb if you are almost next door to the place. Just to give you a heads up to prevent disappointment in the future.

    I am aware of this thanks Jumpy. If you subscribe to the 24Mb line and can't get 14Mb they will only charge you for the 15Mb line according to the agent I spoke to. Maybe you should give them a call.
    techdiver wrote: »
    Definition of "Unlimited"
    1. Having no restrictions or controls.
    2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite.
    3. Without qualification or exception; absolute.
    ...
    The long and short of it is, that no company should be allowed to advertise unlimited if it is not unlimited.

    Could not agree more.
    AUP=/=Set Cap.
    RangeR wrote: »
    Hmmm holes everywhere.

    In the contract, do they clearly state what this fair usage policy is? If not, then it is irrelevant and won't hold up in a court of law.


    If that is the case, why is it then ok to download 400GB monthly if he pays them more? The pipe hasn't mysteriously expanded because he's paying them more. It's pure money grabbing under false pretenses. IF UPC said "bandwidth isn't free and you are using up more than your alotment. We have to charge you more as it's costing us more". Instead they are saying "your actions are having a negative impact on the network. Give us more money". If this argument REALLY held water, they would rate limit him.

    Can you not see the difference?


    The HUGE problem is that UPC are altering their contracts once or twice a year with impunity. I remember when I was first with Chorus a few years ago. There was a specified download allowance per month. That was fine. All of a sudden they came out and changed it to usage allowance [up and download]. They enforce that change on me even though I signed up for download allowance.

    No offence, Some people DO read their contracts and know exactly what's in them. However, some companies change them with impunity because the majority either won't notice or won't complain. NTL / Chorus / UPC change their contract all the time.

    A contract is a legal document. You can't just change it without the other parties consent. UPC do it with apparent impunity.

    There certainly do seem to be a lot of holes now that you point them out. :-)
    hightower1 wrote: »
    Not that I'm disagreeing, personally I think the caps should be listed but realistically 250 gb per month to average joe soap is unlimited cause they'd never ever reach it let alone breach it.

    While this may be somewhat true that doesn't make it ok to punish those users that do hit their "fair usage policy" cap. They have a cap, they should list it. and besides I'd have to wonder how many Joe Soaps are willing to pay €10 more per month for 30Mb rather than 15Mb when both packages are "unlimited"!

    I should also say that I received my reply from The Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland saying that they will be in touch shortly for more information. Very prompt reply and they make it sound like this is well known issue that they may be in the process of doing something about.
    I would ask that anyone else who has a problem with UPC's misleading and false advertising please let the the Advertising Standards Authority know here: http://www.asai.ie/complain.asp

    Also thinking about initiating some legal proceedings.


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  • #42
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    The fact that Magnet have a representative here on Boards.ie is another really good sign for me that I should switch to Magnet.
    Where is the Chorus/NTL/UCP rep?

    Question for you though Rory, I know you say you never have but when would you start to think about taking some action on a user? 600Gb/month, 1Tb/month?


  • #43
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    nutterguy wrote: »
    The fact that Magnet have a representative here on Boards.ie is another really good sign for me that I should switch to Magnet.
    Where is the Chorus/NTL/UCP rep?

    Question for you though Rory, I know you say you never have but when would you start to think about taking some action on a user? 600Gb/month, 1Tb/month?

    I dont honestly know. We don't have a locked figure for the FUP at this time.


  • #44
    Thor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭Thor


    Hey Rory, I dont suppose you know if magnet will work for me(24mb).

    Im in St Columbanus Rd in Dundrum


  • #45
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    Magnet (Rory) wrote: »
    I dont honestly know. We don't have a locked figure for the FUP at this time.

    I know you don't have a set figure but can you find out what would be honestly too much?

    For instance at what point would Magnet staff start to think about warning a user?
    I mean I'm pretty sure if (when) I switch to you guys and start downloading 5Tb of internet every month your not going to be too chuffed! :-D
    (Don't worry I honestly don't think even I could manage 1Tb)

    I'm not asking for a rock solid be all and end all answer but say approx 800Gb/month or something like that.

    If you don't feel happy posting it publicly please PM with an estimate/guess.

    Thanks.


  • #46
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    nutterguy wrote: »
    I know you don't have a set figure but can you find out what would be honestly too much?

    No offence to Rory, but you are to going not get a quantitative answer to that question.


  • #47
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    RangeR wrote: »
    No offence to Rory, but you are to going to get a quantitative answer to that question.

    You never know.
    I have definitely been told that downloading 300-400Gb/month is not a problem. So now I just have to keep ringing up and increasing that amount by 100Gb each time until they say no! :-P

    I just want to know what would honestly be way too much.


  • #48
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,220 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    techdiver wrote: »
    Definition of "Unlimited"
    1. Having no restrictions or controls.
    2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite.
    3. Without qualification or exception; absolute.

    UPC advertise the service as unlimited. Has the word a different meaning for them or for those who defend their practise of false advertisement?

    Their acceptable usage policy does not state any specific cap either. They also don not have a direct link the the policy when ordering their service. I had to locate it through google as their own site search does not find it!

    The long and short of it is, that no company should be allowed to advertise unlimited if it is not unlimited.

    I know what unlimited means conventialy, but when dealing with isps I know that unlimited doesn't really mean unlimited.

    You just have to find out what you are getting into before you are buying it. The important parts at least.

    When I chose a company I tell them that I intend on playing games, downloading and browsing. If they fail at any of these then I leave them.

    From what I remember, they state that this unlimited usage is subject to terms and conditions. That being you cannot download over 250 gigs a month, which I find to be very fair. 4 students, downloading a lot, never had a problem with it.

    Where the problem lies is with the lack of communication on the part of UPC, how they failed to tell their customer that they were going to charge more.

    If they state that a particular part is subject to something or other, you find out what that is. It's common sense. Any time I get broadband I always ask about their FUP. I find it's mostly about 250 gigs.

    Better than Eircoms 30 euro per gig if you go over the cap. Now that's the real joke :P (Happened about 5 years ago).


  • #49
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    nutterguy wrote: »
    I have definitely been told that downloading 300-400Gb/month is not a problem. So now I just have to keep ringing up and increasing that amount by 100Gb each time until they say no! :-P
    I'm pretty sure you will get the same answer each time you ring.
    nutterguy wrote: »
    I just want to know what would honestly be way too much.
    RangeR wrote: »
    ...but you are not going to get a quantitative answer to that question.


  • #50
    techdiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »
    From what I remember, they state that this unlimited usage is subject to terms and conditions. That being you cannot download over 250 gigs a month, which I find to be very fair. 4 students, downloading a lot, never had a problem with it.

    The UPC FUP does not state any specific usage limit. It merely states (after much searching for the actual page/document):
    If you exceed your monthly data transfer allowance as determined by UPC, in our sole judgment, UPC may take any of the following actions, or any combination thereof:

    That does not following on from the comreg statement of unambiguous.


  • #51
    orlaith21
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭orlaith21


    Thanks for telling us what happened to you. I'm waiting on UPC to start coverage in my area so i can get the whole package, phone, internet and t.v. channels. After reading your tread i wont bother going near them now.
    Cheers.


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  • #52
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    RangeR wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure you will get the same answer each time you ring.

    I'm pretty sure that if I rang up telling them I was going to download 5Tb every month they would probably tell me that I would have to be on a business line or something.


  • #53
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    Thor wrote: »
    Hey Rory, I dont suppose you know if magnet will work for me(24mb).

    Im in St Columbanus Rd in Dundrum

    You may be on the Dundrum exchange (in which case no, we couldnt offer the 24Mb). But if you PM me I could check for you.


  • #54
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    orlaith21 wrote: »
    Thanks for telling us what happened to you. I'm waiting on UPC to start coverage in my area so i can get the whole package, phone, internet and t.v. channels. After reading your tread i wont bother going near them now.
    Cheers.

    I'm glad I could help warn you. I was thinking about adding TV to my broadband pack as well.
    Glad I didn't.


  • #55
    com7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 248 ✭✭com7


    i m sure they wo nt lose much sleep over two customers !


  • #56
    Thor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭Thor


    Magnet (Rory) wrote: »
    You may be on the Dundrum exchange (in which case no, we couldnt offer the 24Mb). But if you PM me I could check for you.

    I believe i'am on the dundrum exchange. Pitty, Do you know if and when the dundrum exchange will be availible to me from magnet.

    Sorry for hijacking the thread everyone.


  • #57
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    com7 wrote: »
    i m sure they wo nt lose much sleep over two customers !

    2 users (kingtorres9 & orlaith21) other than myself have posted that they decided not to use UPC because of this thread, so including me that's three, plus I hope many other silent readers.

    My aim is not to make a company lose sleep, my aim is to:
    A) Rant a little and get this off my chest.
    B) Inform others who may be in the same position as me that UPC is not for them.

    I'm still very annoyed with them, Paul Malone especially, and if they happen to lose sleep, time, customers or money I'll be pleased. They deserve nothing less in my book. :D


  • #58
    Mad_Mike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭Mad_Mike


    Ultimately, the HUGE question remains here

    In the website description for 30M broadband.........In the T&C's for the 30M broadband.........IN THE FUP FOR THE 30M BROADBAND, CAN ANYBODY SHOW ME AN ACTUAL REFERENCE TO THIS 250GB LIMIT????????

    I certainly couldn't find it anywhere and thats exactly WHY I signed up with them. Looking at all the FUP posts on here, I'm thinking strongly of telling them where to go!!


    Its the old old story.....Its one law for them and another for us!


    How about their wording on the 30M broadband service?? Does any of that explain why it should drop down under 5 MEGS???


  • #59
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    I should actually mention that two friends of mine will also be switching to Magnet from UPC because of this, so in total UPC will be losing about €250/month purely because of their sh*tty treatment to me.

    Not to mention that I will be advising everyone else I can to stay away from them and make a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority about them.

    Anyway, I signed up to Magnet today and will keep you all informed of how things go.


  • #60
    nutterguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36 ✭nutterguy


    Mad_Mike wrote: »
    Ultimately, the HUGE question remains here

    In the website description for 30M broadband.........In the T&C's for the 30M broadband.........IN THE FUP FOR THE 30M BROADBAND, CAN ANYBODY SHOW ME AN ACTUAL REFERENCE TO THIS 250GB LIMIT????????

    I certainly couldn't find it anywhere...

    Oh you certainly will not find it anywhere.
    Not in their adverts.
    Not in their T's&C's.
    Not in their "Welcome guide".
    They won't even tell you if you ring them up and ask then if there is a limit.
    They say that there is no limit but make sure to point out the A.U.P.

    There is a limit/cap.
    They are liars.

    Interestingly on Magent's website I can't seem to find the word unlimited anywhere...which is actually in my opinion a good thing.
    Mind you they do have some things like "HOME OF IRELAND'S FASTEST BROADBAND SPEEDS" which isn't true if that vague statement is about download speed and it better not be trying to claim the fastest ping either.


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  • #61
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    nutterguy wrote: »
    Interestingly on Magent's website I can't seem to find the word unlimited anywhere...which is actually in my opinion a good thing.
    Mind you they do have some things like "HOME OF IRELAND'S FASTEST BROADBAND SPEEDS" which isn't true if that vague statement is about download speed and it better not be trying to claim the fastest ping either.


    Actually this link for magnet shows both the word unlimited [with FUP] and that they are the fastest residential provider in Ireland. I don't know of any other provider offering 50Mb. Fiber is good :)


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