So I now officially hate UPC!

nutterguy

I both download and upload a lot. In any given month I will probably use between ~250Gb to 400Gb of capacity.
That is a fact.

So I subscribe to an unlimited broadband package from UPC, their highest, 30Mb/3Mb "Unlimited".
Now I know that they have a fair/accecptable usage policy just as all providers do but I expect as I am paying them €51 per month that they will never bother me about it. And they didn't.
They just decided to start charging me €99 per month for a package that doesn't exist on their website. Without even telling me!

If I hadn't checked my bills (was paying by direct debt at the time, not any more!) They would have kept me on this package. €99/month for exactly the same service as €51/month.

So I ring them up and eventually get through to someone called Paul Malone, the head of the UPC Broadband Usage department.
I tell him there is no way I am willing to pay €99/month for the same package that I am already on at €51/month.
He seems really annoyed with me, tells me I am disrupting other customers and am one of the highest downloaders on their entire network. They have a cap of 250Gb/month.
He then tells me that UPC sent out two warning letters. I have never received any warning what so ever despite receiving all of their monthly spam no problem.

And this is where the fun starts. I tell him that I'm sure Magnet wouldn't have a problem with this and he promptly gets really short with me and offers to disconnect me straight away.
I'm a bit shocked by this, I mean are they that willing to throw away customers?
Yes.

A few minutes later I am on the phone to Magnet speaking to a really helpful woman who emails with with conformation that:

Further to our phone conversation, I‘d like to confirm that we don’t have any download/uploads limits.
I spoke to my manager about your download requirements (300-400Gig per month) and he confirmed that it would be ok.

So you know what, screw you UPC/CHORUS/NTL I am moving to a slightly slower(24Mb/1.5MB) line from Magnet. But at least they are actually offering an unlimited package not just lies and ****ty customer service! :mad:

TL;DR: Screw UPC. UPC "unlimited" broadband has a cap of 250GB, go over and they charge you €99/month, lie to you and tell you to piss off! Heavy users stay away!

dub45

Under the rules of the dd scheme (which admittedly in my experience upc dont pay a whole lot of attention to!) you are entitled to a bill fourteen days in advance of it hitting your account.

Did you not receive any bills for the new amount?

It seems a strange attitude that its ok to disrupt other users if you are paying €99 a month:rolleyes:

R3laX

I am just wondering, is it really legal, to call service 'unlimited' (on web, under 'What do I get?' when You select 'Fibre Power Broadband 30Mb', Says 'No usage limit', under 'Condition' it says 'Monthly data usage is capped at 40GB for Fibre Power Broadband 5Mb, there is no monthly usage cap for Fibre Power Broadband 15Mb or 30Mb.'), yet refer to '250gb\month'(according to topic starter), which, I could not find anywhere and as I am looking through the 'General terms and conditions' that I have signed, doesn't say anything about limits, except again refers to 'User Policy' and website www.upc.ie? I personally failed to find anything called 'User Policy' directly on web, thanks to google, I found it . There it says:

Your monthly data transfer allowance depends upon which broadband package you have selected. The data transfer allowances for the various packages can be found at www.upc.ie.

So, pretty much, it is closed circle?
I know, topic starter doesn't lie, as I have friend, who was charged 99 Euro too and was switched to 'Fibre Power Broadband 30Mb Unlimited' or something similar, without his acknowledge.

dub45

R3laX wrote: »

I am just wondering, is it really legal, to call service 'unlimited' (on web, under 'What do I get?' when You select 'Fibre Power Broadband 30Mb', Says 'No usage limit', under 'Condition' it says 'Monthly data usage is capped at 40GB for Fibre Power Broadband 5Mb, there is no monthly usage cap for Fibre Power Broadband 15Mb or 30Mb.'), yet refer to '250gb\month'(according to topic starter), which, I could not find anywhere and as I am looking through the 'General terms and conditions' that I have signed, doesn't say anything about limits, except again refers to 'User Policy' and website www.upc.ie? I personally failed to find anything called 'User Policy' directly on web, thanks to google, I found it . There it says:
.......
So, pretty much, it is closed circle?
I know, topic starter doesn't lie, as I have friend, who was charged 99 Euro too and was switched to 'Fibre Power Broadband 30Mb Unlimited' or something similar, without his acknowledge.

The limited ''unlimited' aspect has been explored in another thread quite recently however I really would like to know about the billing aspect - are people not being billed (in advance) when they are changed onto the 'punishment' product?

kingtorres9

Nutterguy

Just like to say thanks a lot for your thread. I was strongly looking at switchimg from eircom to UPC for the *unlimited* download pack, but after what happened to you they can go and f themselves. You need to keep this thread going to warn others.

I hope someone from UPC reads through a few threads and reads this one because you lost customers here.

Who said 1 man cant make a difference.

Mister Gooey

How can you use up 400Gb data usage per month? That is over 13Gb per day!

SickBoy

Maybe there's more than one person using the interweb in his house?

Fizman

I'm guessing there's a lot of HD files included with figures like that, but it's pretty achievable alright. I've a mate who isn't too far off that.

techdiver

Mister Gooey wrote: »

How can you use up 400Gb data usage per month? That is over 13Gb per day!

Do you think that is unreasonable? Especially for a so called "unlimited download" cap package.

Say for instance you are working from home and have a high dependence on transferring large files as we do regularly in the software industry?

What if you download a few HD movies/tv shows? You won't be long hitting this non-existent cap.

RangeR

dub45 wrote: »

Under the rules of the dd scheme (which admittedly in my experience upc dont pay a whole lot of attention to!) you are entitled to a bill fourteen days in advance of it hitting your account.

From memory when I signed up with UPC last year, you agree on the phone that you will get one bill in first month. You will only get another bill after that if the amount changes. So yes, he should have gotten a bill for the change. I'd be straight onto my bank to complain. They can't just change the amount without you're consent.

Accordingly, if they say they sent you two warning letters. The fact that you didn't get them [or respond] doesn't give them the right to take more money from them. The very most they could have done would be cut you off.

I'd look for your contract. The one you signed, techdriver. See what the T's and C's are. Jeebus, if I was you, I'd make an example of them.

techdiver wrote: »

Do you think that is unreasonable? Especially for a so called "unlimited download" cap package.

Whether it's unreasonable is very subjective. To be honest, 99.9999% of people hitting that much usage are downloading copyright infringed files.

techdiver

RangeR wrote: »

Whether it's unreasonable is very subjective. To be honest, 99.9999% of people hitting that much usage are downloading copyright infringed files.

That is neither here nor there with this issue. Data is data for the purposes of the supposed download cap. UPC don't cite any issue with copyright infringement.

Don't benchmark what you perceive as normal usage against what other people use. As I explained previously I could easily use that amount of data on a daily basis.

RangeR

techdiver wrote: »

That is neither here nor there with this issue. Data is data for the purposes of the supposed download cap. UPC don't cite any issue with copyright infringement.

Don't benchmark what you perceive as normal usage against what other people use. As I explained previously I could easily use that amount of data on a daily basis.

I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was just stating a fact.

techdiver

RangeR wrote: »

I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was just stating a fact.

Sorry, I wasn't saying that you were accusing me of anything, I was just making the point that there is no definitive concrete evidence of the percentage of internet traffic that is consumed by illegal downloading. The only sources are opinion and here-say. Don't get me wrong, there is a hell of a lot of it going on, but I don't think it is the point of this thread.

UPC did not mention illegal downloading, they merely stated that the OP was exceeding their downloading cap, a cap that is not widely published especially when they state that it is unlimited usage. I believe companies that do not allow true "unlimited usage", should not be allowed to state so in their advertisement as it amounts to false advertisement.

The Recliner

RangeR wrote: »

From memory when I signed up with UPC last year, you agree on the phone that you will get one bill in first month. You will only get another bill after that if the amount changes. So yes, he should have gotten a bill for the change. I'd be straight onto my bank to complain. They can't just change the amount without you're consent.

When you sign up for a DD that is exactly what you are signing up for, they can change the amount coming out of the account without your consent, that is its purpose

Otherwise it would be a standing order whereby you have to request the change in amount going out of your account

UPC claim they notified him this would be what you could argue over, the OP claims they did not, again it would depend on the T&C's in the contract signed

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

kingtorres9 wrote: »

Nutterguy

Just like to say thanks a lot for your thread. I was strongly looking at switchimg from eircom to UPC for the *unlimited* download pack, but after what happened to you they can go and f themselves. You need to keep this thread going to warn others.

I hope someone from UPC reads through a few threads and reads this one because you lost customers here.

Who said 1 man cant make a difference.

The op needs to read the contract before going off on a rant.

Warn other people? They clearly state they have a fair usage policy.

What are they to do exactly? Let one person cause problems for many others? Of course they are going to let him go. It's better for the company in the long run.

OP, magnet is a better connection either way. You're better off with them, but read the contract and understand it so you don't get caught out.

Most of these problems can be avoided if people understood the contracts they are entering. Most people don't bother reading the contracts at all and just sign.

Jumpy

nutterguy wrote: »

A few minutes later I am on the phone to Magnet speaking to a really helpful woman who emails with with conformation that:



So you know what, screw you UPC/CHORUS/NTL I am moving to a slightly slower(24Mb/1.5MB) line from Magnet.

Have you had your line tested yet? Just remember its "up to" 24mb. I have 24mb with Smart and I only get 14 of that due to my distance from the exchange.

You will only get 24mb if you are almost next door to the place. Just to give you a heads up to prevent disappointment in the future.

techdiver

Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »

The op needs to read the contract before going off on a rant.

Warn other people? They clearly state they have a fair usage policy.

Definition of "Unlimited"
1. Having no restrictions or controls.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute.

UPC advertise the service as unlimited. Has the word a different meaning for them or for those who defend their practise of false advertisement?

Their acceptable usage policy does not state any specific cap either. They also don not have a direct link the the policy when ordering their service. I had to locate it through google as their own site search does not find it!

The long and short of it is, that no company should be allowed to advertise unlimited if it is not unlimited.

RangeR

Hmmm holes everywhere.

Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »

They clearly state they have a fair usage policy.

In the contract, do they clearly state what this fair usage policy is? If not, then it is irrelevant and won't hold up in a court of law.

Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »

What are they to do exactly? Let one person cause problems for many others? Of course they are going to let him go. It's better for the company in the long run.

If that is the case, why is it then ok to download 400GB monthly if he pays them more? The pipe hasn't mysteriously expanded because he's paying them more. It's pure money grabbing under false pretenses. IF UPC said "bandwidth isn't free and you are using up more than your alotment. We have to charge you more as it's costing us more". Instead they are saying "your actions are having a negative impact on the network. Give us more money". If this argument REALLY held water, they would rate limit him.

Can you not see the difference?

Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »

OP, magnet is a better connection either way. You're better off with them, but read the contract and understand it so you don't get caught out.

Most of these problems can be avoided if people understood the contracts they are entering. Most people don't bother reading the contracts at all and just sign.

The HUGE problem is that UPC are altering their contracts once or twice a year with impunity. I remember when I was first with Chorus a few years ago. There was a specified download allowance per month. That was fine. All of a sudden they came out and changed it to usage allowance [up and download]. They enforce that change on me even though I signed up for download allowance.

No offence, Some people DO read their contracts and know exactly what's in them. However, some companies change them with impunity because the majority either won't notice or won't complain. NTL / Chorus / UPC change their contract all the time.

A contract is a legal document. You can't just change it without the other parties consent. UPC do it with apparent impunity.

R3laX

Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »

They clearly state they have a fair usage policy.

Eghm, in contract, it states that I agree with Usage Policy which is on their web(not a single word about cap in contract). Usage Policy on web says there is cap which varies depending on the pack You got, and it can be found on their web (doesn't give any links). The only thing I found was, as I mentioned above, is "What do I get?" - "No usage limit" and "Conditions" - "there is no monthly usage cap for Fibre Power Broadband 15Mb or 30Mb."
But, I dunno, how it works if You have old contract for 20mb, as then it was with * after "no limits", but now there is nothing.

P1erce

techdiver wrote: »

Definition of "Unlimited"
1. Having no restrictions or controls.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute.

UPC advertise the service as unlimited. Has the word a different meaning for them or for those who defend their practise of false advertisement?

Their acceptable usage policy does not state any specific cap either. They also don not have a direct link the the policy when ordering their service. I had to locate it through google as their own site search does not find it!

The long and short of it is, that no company should be allowed to advertise unlimited if it is not unlimited.

Its unlimited - you can use it any time of the day or night, thats is fully unrestricted and obeys that definition. How much of it you use is limited by fair usage

Not to get into any arguments but that is the definition of unlimited as understood not by the customer but by ISP's.

Pierce

RangeR

R3laX wrote: »

Eghm, in contract, it states that I agree with Usage Policy which is on their web(not a single word about cap in contract). Usage Policy on web says there is cap which varies depending on the pack You got, and it can be found on their web (doesn't give any links). The only thing I found was, as I mentioned above, is "What do I get?" - "No usage limit" and "Conditions" - "there is no monthly usage cap for Fibre Power Broadband 15Mb or 30Mb."
But, I dunno, how it works if You have old contract for 20mb, as then it was with * after "no limits", but now there is nothing.

I'm not a solicitor but my understanding is, if it's not in the contract, it doesn't exist. They can't say "reference another document" This gives the impression that they can change ANY aspect of the contract simply by changing the "Usage Policy".

To be honest, it's all a moot point. If you tried to bring them to court over the "contract", they would settle with you. They will NEVER allow their "contract" to be torn apart by any court in the land.

hightower1

RangeR wrote: »

If that is the case, why is it then ok to download 400GB monthly if he pays them more? The pipe hasn't mysteriously expanded because he's paying them more. It's pure money grabbing under false pretenses. IF UPC said "bandwidth isn't free and you are using up more than your alotment. We have to charge you more as it's costing us more". Instead they are saying "your actions are having a negative impact on the network. Give us more money". If this argument REALLY held water, they would rate limit him.

Well common sense would tell you that they increase the price to that princely sum in order to give you a reason to not download that much which in all fairness is taking the mick like. I mean if your neighbor was downloading 500gb per month slowing you down would you be so understanding? So you get charged that much so you stop downloading that much then they'll downgrade you. If it was a money racket they do state in the terms that they reserve the right to charge you for every mb you breach the AUP by, the word around boards is thats approx 250gb per month so if they charge by the mb for 150 - 250 GIGS worth of a breach I'm sure they could get a lot more money doing it that way.




Its clearly an incentive to stop the downloading going on, they send warnings, if their ignored they then make it worth your while to stop the downloading yourself rather than them having to rattle the saber.

Look at it this way, you can cause a bottle neck for others on the network, they send letters, if its ignored instead of cutting you off they move you to a more expensive price as a deterrent instead of charging you per mb which would cost more to you.... in my opinion that fairly easy going considering they could just cut you off and say sorry but we dont need 50 quid a month that bad tbh. Personally thats the way I'd run it, easier cut off people taking the mick who know it and be left with a minimal disturbance network for people who dont.


Oh and to the OP, your issue is that the sales pitch from UPC didnt seem like they'd pull you on the usage and now a sales person in magnet has promised that they wont ether???? Personally sales people are their for one thing.... money money money, dont make the mistake of taking a sales persons word for it. They deal in half truths and shades of grey i order to have a bigger bank balance at the end of the month.

RangeR

hightower1 wrote: »

.. two very big points missed

You are missing two very big points here Mr. hightower1.

1. Common Sense doesn't apply to anything that UPC do, seriously.
2. Actually, UPC are VERY happy to leave you on the €99 [whatever] tier and download as much as you want, for as long as you want. There are many boardsies on the top tier, whoring down data and not a word is said by UPC. So... Are they drowning out their neighbours? No, they are not.

???

Sponge Bob

They allow VPN on the top tier as well, I have a sizeable Galway accountants company running on it and doing large remote off site back ups all night and no worries The boss puts it on his expenses every month because BB is tax free and uncomplicated to claim as there is a benefit in kind.

dogpile

Mister Gooey wrote: »

How can you use up 400Gb data usage per month? That is over 13Gb per day!

that's nuts.... people get greedy you see, the more they can have the more they want


course I balme UPC on all this, everyone was happy on 3mb BB....life was simple back then :D

P1erce

It seems like a lot -and it is-, its unlikely we will ever get to TVoIP with these kind of restrictions? What is it america uses every day 80GB?!

Just for comparison sake, you can get a server from hetzner in germany for 49euro a month with a 2TB limit, thats 6.5mbps...

I appreciate that other metrics come into play when talking about "Ireland". Having said that €100/month for a fully "unlimited" connection in terms of caps... I would test it, really.

Btw you notice that Vodafone is giving people the option to buy more bandwidth? (I seen it somewhere, could be that "next generation" stuff).

Pierce

Thor

Most people dont have a problem with the 250gb limit that upc give.

The problem I(Most people) Have is that they state on there site that its unlimited.

This is copied from the conditions

UPC Conditions wrote:

Monthly data usage is capped at 40GB for Fibre Power Broadband 5Mb, there is no monthly usage cap for Fibre Power Broadband 15Mb or 30Mb. All broadband services are subject to our acceptable usage policy.

Now they contradict 'there is no monthly usage cap for fibre power broadband 15mb or 30mb' with the sentence right after it. 'All broadband services are subject to our acceptable usage policy'

Now the AUP doesnt have anything to do with when you download, It just enforces a 250gb cap.

If upc were honest about the cap in the first place, There wouldnt be a problem as people wouldnt have the right to complain(they get what they paid for) But they are straight up lying to people!!! I know everyone should read the conditions before entering a contract, But there should be some law as for companys advertising something and IN NO WAY giving you that.

It boggles the mind(Thats right i used the word boggles)

I can't understand how upc can have a sign up deal with boards.ie users and Not have read the complaints about themselves first.

READ THIS UPC**** SU*CK IT!!!(That might be a little harsh) (maybe not harsh enough)

hightower1

Thor wrote: »

Most people dont have a problem with the 250gb limit that upc give.

The problem I(Most people) Have is that they state on there site that its unlimited.

This is copied from the conditions



Now they contradict 'there is no monthly usage cap for fibre power broadband 15mb or 30mb' with the sentence right after it. 'All broadband services are subject to our acceptable usage policy'

Now the AUP doesnt have anything to do with when you download, It just enforces a 250gb cap.

If upc were honest about the cap in the first place, There wouldnt be a problem as people wouldnt have the right to complain(they get what they paid for) But they are straight up lying to people!!! I know everyone should read the conditions before entering a contract, But there should be some law as for companys advertising something and IN NO WAY giving you that.

It boggles the mind(Thats right i used the word boggles)

I can't understand how upc can have a sign up deal with boards.ie users and Not have read the complaints about themselves first.

READ THIS UPC**** SU*CK IT!!!(That might be a little harsh) (maybe not harsh enough)

Not that I'm disagreeing, personally I think the caps should be listed but realistically 250 gb per month to average joe soap is unlimited cause they'd never ever reach it let alone breach it.

I mean its not like his is a new thing right? Every isp that says they have unlimited bb has a fair use policy, in fact its a universal constant that any company that says something is unlimited it has fair use restrictions to protect the majority of their customer base from piss taking.

Examples:

Meteors free text scheme - "Fair Usage Policy" - The fair usage policy (or policies) applicable to the Services as displayed on http://www.meteor.ie/ as may be amended from time to time.
http://www.meteor.ie/terms_and_conditions/

o2's unlimited bitbuzz iPhone wifi - If O2 reasonably suspect you are not acting in accordance with the Fair Usage Policy O2 reserves the right to impose further charges or disconnect your tariff at any time, having attempted to contact you first.
http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/About%20O2/Terms%20and%20conditions/Promotions

And yes even magnet have this too....

Magnets Rory on boards explaining - "2. Fair usage policy applies, we have never invoked this policy but we reserve the right to do so."
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055820496&highlight=usage


ANY time you see unlimited bear in mind no business model in existence can survive while giving away unlimited amounts of a commodity or service thats a unchangeable fundamental law of business.

So its not just UPC..., its o2, magnet, meteor, even restaurants that say "free refills" all have acceptable usage limits and will step in when someone takes the mick. If you have an issue with the way these companies advertise you should contact comreg and the consumer authority siting each place date and time you have seen "unlimited" anything being advertised and they can help further but as far as business regulatory bodies are concerned as long as the acceptable usage policy attached to any advertised unlimited service or good be it high street shop or an ISP , is high enough to not impact or restrict the average consumer then the use of unlimited is allowed as long as acceptable usage is explained and warned if breached.

Thor

hightower1 wrote: »

Not that I'm disagreeing, personally I think the caps should be listed but realistically 250 gb per month to average joe soap is unlimited cause they'd never ever reach it let alone breach it.

I mean its not like his is a new thing right? Every isp that says they have unlimited bb has a fair use policy, in fact its a universal constant that any company that says something is unlimited it has fair use restrictions to protect the majority of their customer base from piss taking.

Examples:

Meteors free text scheme - "Fair Usage Policy" - The fair usage policy (or policies) applicable to the Services as displayed on http://www.meteor.ie/ as may be amended from time to time.
http://www.meteor.ie/terms_and_conditions/

o2's unlimited bitbuzz iPhone wifi - If O2 reasonably suspect you are not acting in accordance with the Fair Usage Policy O2 reserves the right to impose further charges or disconnect your tariff at any time, having attempted to contact you first.
http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/About%20O2/Terms%20and%20conditions/Promotions

And yes even magnet have this too....

Magnets Rory on boards explaining - "2. Fair usage policy applies, we have never invoked this policy but we reserve the right to do so."
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055820496&highlight=usage


ANY time you see unlimited bear in mind no business model in existence can survive while giving away unlimited amounts of a commodity or service thats a unchangeable fundamental law of business.

So its not just UPC..., its o2, magnet, meteor, even restaurants that say "free refills" all have acceptable usage limits and will step in when someone takes the mick. If you have an issue with the way these companies advertise you should contact comreg and the consumer authority siting each place date and time you have seen "unlimited" anything being advertised and they can help further but as far as business regulatory bodies are concerned as long as the acceptable usage policy attached to any advertised unlimited service or good be it high street shop or an ISP , is high enough to not impact or restrict the average consumer then the use of unlimited is allowed as long as acceptable usage is explained and warned if breached.

Now in all them cases they are all doing the same thing. Saying one thing and doing another.

Now 250gb for the average joe is fine, But we are talking about a household, there could be up for 5 people in some cases using the same broadband. In those cases 250gb just simply isnt enough.

Also its not unlimted per say. No one is going to be downloading nonstop aslong as there connection is active. Even a resonable limit as to dismiss the possibility of a house with 5 people on it would be at least 400+gb.

Is it unfair what these companys are doing!! HELL YES

Is anything going to be done about it DOUBTFUL

The problem is that not enough people care about it to complain to a point were something is done about it. I know that might make you think it isnt a big issue then but really it is!!

The op said that all he did was move to another isp that is doing the exact same thing. Although they allow for a bigger cap it doesnt get rid of the problem he was having with the first isp.

You say all companies do it, Does that make it okay? In my eyes one company did it and nothing was said or done and then they all started doing it.

I dont mind the 250gb cap(although i would prefer unlimted like it says) The problem i have is that they are trying to get customers by stated its unlimited.

Now if it was with the speed. You can damn sure know it would be a BIG problem and everyone would be in there face about it. although most people dont get the full speed all the time. imagine if it was always have of what you were suppose to be getting(I.e paying for 30mb and only getting 15mb)

i guess we will have to live with the READ THE FINE PRINT saying!!!

RANT OVER!! Forgive me for any mispelled words(I'm tired)

dub45

It constantly baffles me that otherwise apparently intelligent people can argue that because a lot or maybe some or maybe even one other entity does something wrong it justifies some other entity doing wrong.

If a company (any company) advertises an 'unlimited' product or service and in practise it is not unlimited then they are lying - its that simple.

And its not about 'common sense' on the part of the purchaser or anything else.

Its lies, dishonesty........

If common sense is to come into consideration at all then the seller should exercise the common sense (and integrity of course) and not lie in the first place.

Magnet: Rory

I can understand the issue here but it must be noted that there is a big difference between a company that talks about unlimited and invokes FUP on a constant basis, and a company that has never invoked the policy.

We have to give ourselves some space on these things.

dub45

Magnet (Rory) wrote: »

I can understand the issue here but it must be noted that there is a big difference between a company that talks about unlimited and invokes FUP on a constant basis, and a company that has never invoked the policy.

We have to give ourselves some space on these things.

Can you tell us what exactly this means?

Magnet: Rory

dub45 wrote: »

Can you tell us what exactly this means?

We really cant nail ourselves to the floor on something like this, if somebody totally goes beyond the beyonds (especially in the 50Mb areas) we have to have some space to rein them in.

In saying this I have to stipulate that we have never done this and in all my time with Magnet we have never even talked about it.

dub45

While I can appreaciate your situation what about a situation like Smarts' customers recently experienced?

For years Smart were excellent in relation to the downloading issue and then all a takeover and an incredibly hamfisted implementation of a so called fup (without any apparent notifications) and all of a sudden customers were being throttled and seriously inconvenienced.

The trouble with fup's is that it is open to the company to interpret them as they wish and the customer has no comeback when that interpretation changes.

dub45

And can I once again remind readers of this?

The Comreg policy on unlimited products:

Internet

My Service Provider has advertised an "unlimited package" - what does this mean for me?

A number of telephone and broadband packages being offered are described as ‘unlimited’. In this context the word ‘unlimited’ would normally be taken to mean that a subscriber, having agreed to pay a set price, may make as many calls or spend as much time online as he or she wishes. However, some service contracts qualify the meaning of ‘unlimited’ by stating that it is subject to an ‘acceptable’ or ‘fair’ level of use by the subscriber. This is referred to as a “fair usage policy” in some advertising.

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

ComReg advises consumers to carefully read the terms and conditions of their contracts and to be aware of the particular limits or thresholds that apply before purchasing.

http://www.askcomreg.ie/internet/my_provider_has_advertised_an_unlimited_package_%E2%80%93_what_does_that_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp

Magnet: Rory

dub45 wrote: »

While I can appreaciate your situation what about a situation like Smarts' customers recently experienced?

For years Smart were excellent in relation to the downloading issue and then all of a sudden a takeover and an incredibly hamfisted implementation of a so called fup (without any apparent notifications) and all of a sudden customers were being throttled and seriously inconvenienced.

The trouble with fup's is that it is open to the company to interpret them as they wish and the customer has no comeback when that interpretation changes.

Fair point and no-one can tell the future, but considering no other ISP has a FUP as lenient as ours I would urge people to place us at the top of this particular league table.

RangeR

Rory,

I can understand ISP's not wanting to mention the FUP limit as some users will use that as a target every month. However, it's still purposely ambiguous.

How about, pick your FUP limit then advertise 50% of that in the contracts [I don't mean just Magnet]. Therefore if people aim for the FUP limit, they are "happy" and so is the ISP, to an extent?

If a few people go over the FUP but don't hit your real [hidden] FUP limit, you don't bat an eyelid, giving the impression of a great company.

It's all about being open and transparent. Or at the very least, appearing to be open and transparent.

I've yet to see a "contract" from an ISP [and I've been with many] that would hold up in court.

dub45

RangeR wrote: »

Rory,

I can understand ISP's not wanting to mention the FUP limit as some users will use that as a target every month. However, it's still purposely ambiguous.

How about, pick your FUP limit then advertise 50% of that in the contracts [I don't mean just Magnet]. Therefore if people aim for the FUP limit, they are "happy" and so is the ISP, to an extent?

If a few people go over the FUP but don't hit your real [hidden] FUP limit, you don't bat an eyelid, giving the impression of a great company.

It's all about being open and transparent. Or at the very least, appearing to be open and transparent.

I've yet to see a "contract" from an ISP [and I've been with many] that would hold up in court.

Most companies (and not just ips) would of course know that the average person cannot afford to take them to court.

Magnet: Rory

RangeR wrote: »

Rory,

I can understand ISP's not wanting to mention the FUP limit as some users will use that as a target every month. However, it's still purposely ambiguous.

How about, pick your FUP limit then advertise 50% of that in the contracts [I don't mean just Magnet]. Therefore if people aim for the FUP limit, they are "happy" and so is the ISP, to an extent?

If a few people go over the FUP but don't hit your real [hidden] FUP limit, you don't bat an eyelid, giving the impression of a great company.

It's all about being open and transparent. Or at the very least, appearing to be open and transparent.

I've yet to see a "contract" from an ISP [and I've been with many] that would hold up in court.

Considering we have never done anything on this (no charges, no letters, no forced upgrades) I really don't see a need to stipulate figures at this point.

We can't tell what is to happen in the future so we really can't put ourselves into a corner on this, especially when other ISP's are clearly wide of anybody's interpretation of the word "unlimited" but are still being permitted to use the word.

techdiver

dub45 wrote: »

And can I once again remind readers of this?

The Comreg policy on unlimited products:



http://www.askcomreg.ie/internet/my_provider_has_advertised_an_unlimited_package_%E2%80%93_what_does_that_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp

I would consider the UPC FUP as quite ambiguous as they don not clearly set out any usage limit in it.

nutterguy

Firstly thanks to everyone who has been supportive, I wasn't even really expecting reply's, I just had to rant this somewhere as it made me so angry.

dub45 wrote: »

Under the rules of the dd scheme (which admittedly in my experience upc dont pay a whole lot of attention to!) you are entitled to a bill fourteen days in advance of it hitting your account.

Did you not receive any bills for the new amount?

It seems a strange attitude that its ok to disrupt other users if you are paying €99 a month:rolleyes:

I get my bills online thereby saving UPC money so they can post me double the spam.
I was also paying by direct debt and just (in retrospect stupidly) presumed that my bills would always be the same.

kingtorres9 wrote: »

Nutterguy

Just like to say thanks a lot for your thread. I was strongly looking at switchimg from eircom to UPC for the *unlimited* download pack, but after what happened to you they can go and f themselves. You need to keep this thread going to warn others.

I hope someone from UPC reads through a few threads and reads this one because you lost customers here.

Who said 1 man cant make a difference.

After taking to Magnet and having a few friends on Magnet lines I think they might be a good bet. I'm not saying your guaranteed no problems, or even a good service but at least they won't bend you over like UPC for using more than 250Gb/month. Having said that, if your SURE your never going to go over 250Gb/month then UPC are ok.

Mister Gooey wrote: »

How can you use up 400Gb data usage per month? That is over 13Gb per day!

This:

SickBoy wrote: »

Maybe there's more than one person using the interweb in his house?

There are two.

I personally also do backups to Amazon S3 storage, Flickr, watch a lot of BBC HD and other HD shows.
But as Techdiver says below, this has nothing to do with what I'm using the connection for, I could be refreshing facebook a million times a second or downloading 4Chan or torrenting, it wouldn't be and isn't relevant!

techdiver wrote: »

That is neither here nor there with this issue. Data is data for the purposes of the supposed download cap. UPC don't cite any issue with copyright infringement.

Don't benchmark what you perceive as normal usage against what other people use. As I explained previously I could easily use that amount of data on a daily basis.

---

Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »

...

Most of these problems can be avoided if people understood the contracts they are entering. Most people don't bother reading the contracts at all and just sign.

OP did thank you!
Fair usage policy is not ment to be a term meaning we have a hidden cap but don't want to tell you about it! Magnet have a fair usage policy as well but they have told me that they have never evoked it, I of course cannot verify this but I do have it in writing from them that they do not have a problem with me downloading 300-400Gb/month.

UPC do have a Cap, it's 250Gb/month. This does not even seem related to fair usage, as I do most of my usage at about 2am-6am.

Jumpy wrote: »

Have you had your line tested yet? Just remember its "up to" 24mb. I have 24mb with Smart and I only get 14 of that due to my distance from the exchange.

You will only get 24mb if you are almost next door to the place. Just to give you a heads up to prevent disappointment in the future.

I am aware of this thanks Jumpy. If you subscribe to the 24Mb line and can't get 14Mb they will only charge you for the 15Mb line according to the agent I spoke to. Maybe you should give them a call.

techdiver wrote: »

Definition of "Unlimited"
1. Having no restrictions or controls.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute.
...
The long and short of it is, that no company should be allowed to advertise unlimited if it is not unlimited.

Could not agree more.
AUP=/=Set Cap.

RangeR wrote: »

Hmmm holes everywhere.

In the contract, do they clearly state what this fair usage policy is? If not, then it is irrelevant and won't hold up in a court of law.


If that is the case, why is it then ok to download 400GB monthly if he pays them more? The pipe hasn't mysteriously expanded because he's paying them more. It's pure money grabbing under false pretenses. IF UPC said "bandwidth isn't free and you are using up more than your alotment. We have to charge you more as it's costing us more". Instead they are saying "your actions are having a negative impact on the network. Give us more money". If this argument REALLY held water, they would rate limit him.

Can you not see the difference?


The HUGE problem is that UPC are altering their contracts once or twice a year with impunity. I remember when I was first with Chorus a few years ago. There was a specified download allowance per month. That was fine. All of a sudden they came out and changed it to usage allowance [up and download]. They enforce that change on me even though I signed up for download allowance.

No offence, Some people DO read their contracts and know exactly what's in them. However, some companies change them with impunity because the majority either won't notice or won't complain. NTL / Chorus / UPC change their contract all the time.

A contract is a legal document. You can't just change it without the other parties consent. UPC do it with apparent impunity.

There certainly do seem to be a lot of holes now that you point them out. :-)

hightower1 wrote: »

Not that I'm disagreeing, personally I think the caps should be listed but realistically 250 gb per month to average joe soap is unlimited cause they'd never ever reach it let alone breach it.

While this may be somewhat true that doesn't make it ok to punish those users that do hit their "fair usage policy" cap. They have a cap, they should list it. and besides I'd have to wonder how many Joe Soaps are willing to pay €10 more per month for 30Mb rather than 15Mb when both packages are "unlimited"!

---

I should also say that I received my reply from The Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland saying that they will be in touch shortly for more information. Very prompt reply and they make it sound like this is well known issue that they may be in the process of doing something about.
I would ask that anyone else who has a problem with UPC's misleading and false advertising please let the the Advertising Standards Authority know here: http://www.asai.ie/complain.asp

Also thinking about initiating some legal proceedings.

nutterguy

The fact that Magnet have a representative here on Boards.ie is another really good sign for me that I should switch to Magnet.
Where is the Chorus/NTL/UCP rep?

Question for you though Rory, I know you say you never have but when would you start to think about taking some action on a user? 600Gb/month, 1Tb/month?

Magnet: Rory

nutterguy wrote: »

The fact that Magnet have a representative here on Boards.ie is another really good sign for me that I should switch to Magnet.
Where is the Chorus/NTL/UCP rep?

Question for you though Rory, I know you say you never have but when would you start to think about taking some action on a user? 600Gb/month, 1Tb/month?

I dont honestly know. We don't have a locked figure for the FUP at this time.

Thor

Hey Rory, I dont suppose you know if magnet will work for me(24mb).

Im in St Columbanus Rd in Dundrum

nutterguy

Magnet (Rory) wrote: »

I dont honestly know. We don't have a locked figure for the FUP at this time.

I know you don't have a set figure but can you find out what would be honestly too much?

For instance at what point would Magnet staff start to think about warning a user?
I mean I'm pretty sure if (when) I switch to you guys and start downloading 5Tb of internet every month your not going to be too chuffed! :-D
(Don't worry I honestly don't think even I could manage 1Tb)

I'm not asking for a rock solid be all and end all answer but say approx 800Gb/month or something like that.

If you don't feel happy posting it publicly please PM with an estimate/guess.

Thanks.

RangeR

nutterguy wrote: »

I know you don't have a set figure but can you find out what would be honestly too much?

No offence to Rory, but you are to going not get a quantitative answer to that question.

nutterguy

RangeR wrote: »

No offence to Rory, but you are to going to get a quantitative answer to that question.

You never know.
I have definitely been told that downloading 300-400Gb/month is not a problem. So now I just have to keep ringing up and increasing that amount by 100Gb each time until they say no! :-P

I just want to know what would honestly be way too much.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

techdiver wrote: »

Definition of "Unlimited"
1. Having no restrictions or controls.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute.

UPC advertise the service as unlimited. Has the word a different meaning for them or for those who defend their practise of false advertisement?

Their acceptable usage policy does not state any specific cap either. They also don not have a direct link the the policy when ordering their service. I had to locate it through google as their own site search does not find it!

The long and short of it is, that no company should be allowed to advertise unlimited if it is not unlimited.

I know what unlimited means conventialy, but when dealing with isps I know that unlimited doesn't really mean unlimited.

You just have to find out what you are getting into before you are buying it. The important parts at least.

When I chose a company I tell them that I intend on playing games, downloading and browsing. If they fail at any of these then I leave them.

From what I remember, they state that this unlimited usage is subject to terms and conditions. That being you cannot download over 250 gigs a month, which I find to be very fair. 4 students, downloading a lot, never had a problem with it.

Where the problem lies is with the lack of communication on the part of UPC, how they failed to tell their customer that they were going to charge more.

If they state that a particular part is subject to something or other, you find out what that is. It's common sense. Any time I get broadband I always ask about their FUP. I find it's mostly about 250 gigs.

Better than Eircoms 30 euro per gig if you go over the cap. Now that's the real joke :P (Happened about 5 years ago).

RangeR

nutterguy wrote: »

I have definitely been told that downloading 300-400Gb/month is not a problem. So now I just have to keep ringing up and increasing that amount by 100Gb each time until they say no! :-P

I'm pretty sure you will get the same answer each time you ring.

nutterguy wrote: »

I just want to know what would honestly be way too much.

RangeR wrote: »

...but you are not going to get a quantitative answer to that question.

techdiver

Kieran Delicious Ladle wrote: »

From what I remember, they state that this unlimited usage is subject to terms and conditions. That being you cannot download over 250 gigs a month, which I find to be very fair. 4 students, downloading a lot, never had a problem with it.

The UPC FUP does not state any specific usage limit. It merely states (after much searching for the actual page/document):

If you exceed your monthly data transfer allowance as determined by UPC, in our sole judgment, UPC may take any of the following actions, or any combination thereof:

That does not following on from the comreg statement of unambiguous.

orlaith21

Thanks for telling us what happened to you. I'm waiting on UPC to start coverage in my area so i can get the whole package, phone, internet and t.v. channels. After reading your tread i wont bother going near them now.
Cheers.