Do you think women get off light when it comes to the justice system?

Prof.Badass · 17-02-2010 10:28PM

Advancements in gender equality still haven't done much to rectify the discrimination facing men, not just with regards this issue, but in lots of other areas too.

I have no doubt that if the genders were reversed the man would have been locked up without question (i wonder what eamonn lillis is doing right now....simmilar story- abusive person killed by "victim" of opposite sex).
It really annoys me that women quite regularly literally get away with murder just by saying "he was abusive" or something to that effect.

When it comes to domestic dischord there really seems to be this entrenched notion that women can do no wrong. That if any man is verbally abusive or ever uses physical force (we're not even talking about hitting here), he is automatically a callous bully and that she is a complete victim, with there being no chance that he's just trying to stand up for himself or that she is just as bad or worse (I definitely don't think a normal person would kill someone no matter how abusive they were).

I'd even go as far as to say that some absolute bitches of women can get away with treating their children in such a way that no father could ever get away with (not neccesarily talking about legally getting away with it, more how socially tolerated the behaviour is- how compelled others are to intervene etc.).

The sad thing for me is that it's not something we can blame on women, these backward sexist notions are held by men just as much as by women (maybe even moreso). So clearly it's not just an issue that government need to adresss, but each person themselves.

goose2005 · 17-02-2010 10:28PM

streings wrote: »

Unless you can find a case where a man did that, his whole family appealed for him not to be sent to jail, and the Director of Public Prosecution told the judge he would not appeal a suspended sentence i believe you have no basis for your argument. And theyre only the bits I know of. The judge presumably had other reasons for giving out that sentence.

I know of a case where a 16-y-o killed his sister after a row with implements that just happened to be in the home, he served about 5 years for manslaughter. And he was a minor.

Look at the incredible disparity between women's and men's prisons here: http://www.cfj.ie/content/view/243/3/ Bizarrely, the article complains that women in Limerick prison are treated the same as mere men, rather than arguing against the privileges in the "Dóchas Centre".

cafecolour · 17-02-2010 10:28PM

I don't think it's explicitly women. Cases where one person is considered an 'upstanding citizen' and the other a 'scumbag', the 'upstanding citizen' tends to get off lightly. Especially if there's any hint of self-defense.

Honestly, there seems to be plenty of complaints that the Irish justice system tends to be light. I remember when the swiss girl was killed in Galway a few years ago, yer one that did had a huge history - killed a man in a brawl, raped multiple women, attacked and blinded an old man. He got a few years for each at most.

So if someone who's a notorious scumbag gets only a few years for killing someone, I'm not surprised when this case just gets a suspended sentence.

cafecolour · 17-02-2010 10:38PM

Okay, a quick google of 'suspended sentence manslaughter ireland'. After the sister case, I quickly found this:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2009/0430/ireland/six-years-suspended-for-manslaughter-of-father-408911.html

Lad gets suspended sentence for beating his father to death (sentence April 09)

http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/index.aspx?c=ireland&jp=eyeymheyojcw

Man gets suspended sentence for killing flatmate (sentence Jan 10)

So, no, if we're going on anecdotal evidence, I don't think women get off any lighter when it comes to the justice system. Now if you want to ask if everyone gets off light, I might have a different answer

fulhamfanincork · 17-02-2010 10:42PM

The news said that the brother was known to be abusive toward her sister.

She says she brought the knife for protection, surely the question has to be asked as to why she went to the party if she knew her brother would be there?

OutlawPete · 17-02-2010 10:43PM

cafecolour wrote: »

Lad gets suspended sentence for beating his father to death (sentence April 09)

No weapon involved and so can hardly be called premeditated.

Disgraceful sentence too though.

cafecolour wrote: »

Man gets suspended sentence for killing flatmate (sentence Jan 10)

The guy got 5 1/2 years??

Mrmoe · 17-02-2010 11:03PM

The whole justice system is very lenient anyway never mind when it comes to sentencing women. I would say that there is a definite disparity with the way male and female offenders are dealt with.

cafecolour · 17-02-2010 11:11PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

No weapon involved and so can hardly be called premeditated.

I don't think it was actually premeditated in that she was going to kill her brother, I think she knew there could be trouble and wanted to be prepared - and possibly scare him off.

Ie lets say there's a group of scumbags that always hang out on the street where I live, and hassle me when I go to the shop. I get fed up with it and bring a bat with me. I'm not intending to beat them with it - it's to say f*ck off it they try it with me this time. But of course, the mere fact that I have a bat ends up escalating it and I end up bashing one's head in.

OutlawPete wrote: »

The guy got 5 1/2 years??

Whoops, you're right, I misread the article, only the last year and half was suspended.

IvySlayer · 17-02-2010 11:19PM

What about your one in Roscommon. The child abuse/incest case. If I rememeber, didn't the judge say if the guilty was a man, he would've gotten life?

OutlawPete · 17-02-2010 11:23PM

cafecolour wrote: »

I think she knew there could be trouble and wanted to be prepared - and possibly scare him off. I'm not intending to beat them with it - it's to say f*ck off it they try it with me this time.

Her boyfriend said that on the night she said:

"Michael is going to start trouble tonight"

cafecolour wrote: »

Whoops, you're right, I misread the article, only the last year and half was suspended.

No problem, just 'thank' all my posts for one week as way of a penance

Dudess · 17-02-2010 11:44PM

Whether the justice system in general is biased in favour of women, I'm not sure - but I'm certain this cannot be ascertained either way via one or two examples.

I wholeheartedly agree the justice system is biased in favour of women when it comes to the specific issue of parental rights though.

zootroid · 18-02-2010 12:21AM

Dudess wrote: »

Whether the justice system in general is biased in favour of women, I'm not sure - but I'm certain this cannot be ascertained either way via one or two examples.

I wholeheartedly agree the justice system is biased in favour of women when it comes to the specific issue of parental rights though.

There should be consistency though, as a particular sentence sets a precedent.

Personally, I feel she got off too lightly, and should have gotten a jail sentence of at least 3 years. I accept there are a number of mitigating circumstances in the case, but at the end of the day, a man lost his life at the hands of a person who was carrying a knife.

Nightwish · 18-02-2010 12:23AM

I am familiar with the family in question as they live not too far away from me. I know someone who lived right across the road from the deceased prior to his death. He was not a pleasant person at all. The people in the estate had a terrible time, with him living there. He was a violent heroin addict. The tale of his sister killing him was tragic. It was highly negligent of her to bring a knife with her. However, knowing people close to the case I can kinda see how she got a lenient sentence.

aDeener · 18-02-2010 01:31AM

Mrmoe wrote: »

The whole justice system is very lenient anyway never mind when it comes to sentencing women. I would say that there is a definite disparity with the way male and female offenders are dealt with.

It is very lenient full stop.

Dudess · 18-02-2010 01:45AM

Mrmoe wrote: »

I would say that there is a definite disparity with the way male and female offenders are dealt with.

Based on what? In high-profile cases, there is a difference in how the media treats things depending on the gender(s) of the accused (and it's not necessarily "softer" on women - e.g. Nevin, Mulhalls, Hindley) but is there a concrete pattern of women getting an easier ride when it comes to sentencing?

goose2005 · 18-02-2010 03:37AM

IvySlayer wrote: »

What about your one in Roscommon. The child abuse/incest case. If I rememeber, didn't the judge say if the guilty was a man, he would've gotten life?

But that wasn't a problem in the justice system (the application of the law), it was a problem in the law itself, where a woman couldn't be convicted of raping a boy or man.

WindSock · 18-02-2010 10:33AM

Just like men, some do and some don't

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mums-jailed-after-getting-lost-on-daytrip-drugs-run-1238348.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=mhaukfsnsnau

walshb · 18-02-2010 10:39AM

The woman went to the man in the house and brought a knife with her. Now, if she really was in such fear of trouble, why the **** go at all? She knifed him to death and serves ZERO time. Jeez, I'd say Mr. Lillis is doing his nut now.

Of course, the defence and others painted the dead man as a gouger and a scumbag, an allegation he cannot defend against (dead men tell no tales).

But lets say he was a nasty piece of work, did he ask for this? She went to the house armed with the knife and as far as I know, he never attacked her in the house.

He happened to be "in her way" at the door, obstructing her pathway out of the house.

DamoDLK · 18-02-2010 11:46AM

I'm bloody fed up with the legal system, its disheartening really. The public have no respect or confidence in it anymore. When I get back i'll reform it. facebook group all the way!

O.T. It was too lenient of course.

Kev_ps3 · 18-02-2010 11:55AM

Liberalism is running riot in this country. A week or two ago we had that guy getting a few years for murdering his wife and now we get this.
The Irish people need to wake up and revolt against this criminal establishment.

Mr. Presentable · 18-02-2010 12:02PM

It's a bit more complicated than that. Women definitely get an easy ride in the Courts across the board, but so also, it would appear, do rapists.

There seems to be a bit of "Ah, she's female, must be hormonal, so temporarily not responsible".

bonerm · 18-02-2010 12:06PM

Obvious question but .... why did she go to this particular house when she knew the brother was gonna be there?

I have a general rule of staying far away from people who are contributing negatively to my life.

K-9 · 18-02-2010 12:25PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

The brother did not follow her, she is the one who brought a steak knife to a party in full knowledge that her brother was a bit of a nut job.

Id read that he was after giving the girlfriend a beating and he said "you're next" to the sister. He had a mop in his hand! :eek:

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Murder involves planning and intent.

You could argue that bringing a steak knife with her indicates intent.

Yes, or self defence because he was a bad baxtard and there was a history of abuse.

Still, a suspended sentence is wrong. It sends out the wrong message and a few nuts could throw up a sob story as defence.

Prof.Badass · 18-02-2010 02:19PM

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Liberalism is running riot in this country. A week or two ago we had that guy getting a few years for murdering his wife and now we get this.
The Irish people need to wake up and revolt against this criminal establishment.

True liberals are all for gender equality. It's the conservatives who want special treatment for women.

OutlawPete · 15-04-2010 10:04AM

I didn't notice this case over two weeks ago, but yet another case of a women getting a very very lenient sentence for killing someone.

Anne Burke beat her husband to death with a hammer as he slept in his bed.

She didn't hit him once or twice, but 23 times.

For some reason, she was charged with manslaughter.

From what I can tell, there is evidence of mental illness and abuse within the family but it begs the question, if she got off because she has mental illness problems, then why did she walk free?

Okay, there was abuse and one incidence of him pointing a gun at her twenty years ago, however the man's brother states that there was physical abuse on bith sides.

Also, should she not be in hospital at the very least, why was she not found not guilty on 'temporary insanity' grounds if the she had mentally snapped and this was the reason she was drunk from 10am that day.

I simply cannot see any man getting away with killing their wives with a hammer whist they slept and then walking free because they have been treated for depression.

I have read seven different articles about this case now and they all refer to the woman's emotional state, how she might kill herself, how her family packed a little bag for her and how abuse within a family is tough and also how living with what she did will be punishment enough.

All this may very well be true, but would a man get the same level of sympathy for battering a sleeping women to death with a hammer? Would the media care if his family packed a little bag for him after he caved the skull in of his wife, with 23 blows of a hammer?

Another similar case was Caroline Comerford who knifed her husband to death and also walked free.

One case that really bothered me was the case David Bourke (56) who stabbed his wife in front of his kids and got a LIFE sentence and there wasn't a shred of sympathy or understanding bestowed on him.

The guy was tormented by his wife, she even brought the guy she was having an affair with into the family home.

David's friends gave evidence that he had become withdrawn and had been seen in public unshaven for the first time in twenty years and that he seemed to suddenly be a "broken man".

There is simply no way David Bourke was acting rationally when he stabbed his wife especially as she had just boasted and taunted him that she was going to move this guy into live with her and the kids in the family home.

So where was his manslaughter plea, or sympathy from the courts in his case?

Of course there are vast differences in the cases but so much so that one killer walks free and the other serves a life sentence?

For a long time I have had doubts about our justice system and wondered if women get far more lenient sentences in the courts than men. Now though, I am no longer wondering, I am totally and utterly convinced.

There is a bias in our justice system, no question about it.

Wibbs · 15-04-2010 10:22AM

I agree there is a bias. The "menstrual illness" bias as I would describe it. The joke is it's actually very misogynistic, as it reinforces the idea that women are emotionally weak creatures not as responsible as men for their actions. Almost treating them as minors, not adults. Ok good result if you're the woman in the dock, but it continues to send a double edged message. How the law deals with rape cases, also somewhat infantalises women too at times IMHO.

Tigger · 15-04-2010 11:58AM

they're looking for getting rid of prision for women altogether

http://www.iprt.ie/contents/1620
because and i quote

“Women offenders generally present a lower risk to society, and even a temporary period of imprisonment can have a profound negative impact on the families and communities, particularly in breaking the relationship between mothers and their children.

“Expanding the number of prison places cannot and will not address offending behaviour in women. It will merely serve to compound the distress of our most disadvantaged communities in the longer term.

“Instead of increasing prison spaces, we need support services in the community to address the complex issues and multiple needs of many women offenders, including mental health issues and substance addictions, without breaking links with women’s families.”

For all media enquiries, or to arrange an interview with IPRT Executive

the poor criminals

OutlawPete · 16-04-2010 12:55AM

Tigger wrote: »

they're looking for getting rid of prision for women altogether

http://www.iprt.ie/contents/1620

Sweet jesus and I thought the bias might actually be corrected given time.

K-9 · 16-04-2010 01:25AM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Sweet jesus and I thought the bias might actually be corrected given time.

It is the Irish PENAL Reform Trust. Sounds like one of those bodies that everything is mens fault.

cafecolour · 16-04-2010 01:40AM

Tigger wrote: »

they're looking for getting rid of prision for women altogether

http://www.iprt.ie/contents/1620

From what I can tell from their website, I think they want to get rid of prisons altogether - they just seem to think it's easiest to start with the women's ones first.

Do you think women get off light when it comes to the justice system?

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