Do you think women get off light when it comes to the justice system?

OutlawPete

A woman who stabbed her brother got a suspended sentence today.

She killed him at a party that she brought a steak knife to, as she said she knew her brother would cause trouble and needed some "protection".

Her family said they didn't want her imprisoned and I have sympathy but I have seen men get locked up for just carrying knives!

Director of Public Prosecution told the judge he would not appeal a suspended sentence.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0217/brennanm.html

Do you think woman get off with far lighter sentences than men for committing the same crimes?

WeeBushy

Very hard to say without knowing the ins and outs of the case imo.

Absurdum

WeeBushy wrote: »

Very hard to say without knowing the ins and outs of the case imo.

killing is killing, regardless

she got off very lightly imo

minidazzler

Everyone gets off fairly light in our justice system relative to what would happen in the US, or other countries where they take these things seriously.

She took a knife out with her in case he caused trouble so she could stab him.....is that not actually Murder in the first?

I don't know the ins and outs but that is no time for killing someone!

stovelid

Warning

The brother had a heroin habit.

Some posters may proffer initial expressions of outrage at his death that they may later deeply regret and ninja-edit to carry statements of callous glee.

minidazzler

Absurdum wrote: »

killing is killing, regardless

she got off very lightly imo

Yeah, killing is killing.

There is a difference between Murder and Manslaughter though. It's not as black and white as killing is killing, not killing isn't. You have to look at intent and motive in these things, not just the act.

WeeBushy

Absurdum wrote: »

killing is killing, regardless

she got off very lightly imo

Well it was manslaughter, so without knowing if she felt she was defending herself, for example, its hard to say whether the sentence was right.

I find hard to tell whether it was just or not from 6 paragraphs of journalism.

OutlawPete

WeeBushy wrote: »

Very hard to say without knowing the ins and outs of the case imo.

Granted and I do have sympathy as he had being violent towards her before.

However, people get imprisoned just for carrying knives.

She was not found guilty on a count of temporary insanity, which - if was the case I could far better understand the sentence.

Can't see a guy getting off with killing his brother for instance, even if he was violent to him on occasions. Especially if he took a steak knife to a party with him.

Latchy

OutlawPete wrote: »

She killed him at a party that she brought a steak knife to, as she said she knew her brother would cause trouble and needed some "protection".

If any person is going armed to a party to protect themselfs , chances are they will probably use that wepon so that is one party she should have avoided at all costs

D.R cowboy

If his Barrister was Sh*t hot, well then their was little anyone could do really

WeeBushy

OutlawPete wrote: »

Granted and I do have sympathy as he had being violent towards her before.

However, people get imprisoned just for carrying knives.

She was not found guilty on a count of temporary insanity, which - if was the case I could far better understand the sentence.

Can't see a guy getting off with killing his brother for instance, even if he was violent to him on occasions. Especially if he took a steak knife to a party with him.

I don't think its fair to turn this case into a sex thing. If what happened was the exact same, bar changing their sexes around, I'm sure the outcome would have been the same.

OutlawPete

WeeBushy wrote: »

I don't think its fair to turn this case into a sex thing. If what happened was the exact same, bar changing their sexes around, I'm sure the outcome would have been the same.

That's my point.

I don't.

Jazzy

justice for some, lemonade for others

R0ot

Should have used a butter knife.

Teutorix

OutlawPete wrote: »

Man Murders Sister With Steak Knife - Gets Supended Sentence!!
Would that sentence shock you??

Well, a woman who stabbed her brother got a suspended sentence today.

This thread confuses me

OutlawPete

Teutorix wrote: »

This thread confuses me

Don't think it did.

"Would that sentence shock you".

Not .. "Did that sentence shock you".

qwert2

Definitely when it comes to the media

Teutorix

OutlawPete wrote: »

Don't think it did.

"Would that sentence shock you".

Not .. "Did that sentence shock you".

I think ill go back to lurking

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Again, most of us here probably haven't seen all of the facts or sat through the trial

No doubt she killed him, which is obviously a very serious matter, but I would imagine that there was a hell of a lot of evidence as to the mitigating circumstances that would cause the judge to suspend the sentence

Provocation is a very strong defence and not to be thought of in the everyday meaning of the word. Its generally used after long periods of abuse where the perpetrator is literally at the end of their tether and snaps. Of course this must be proved to an extremely high standard and by all accounts, the deceased was very abusive to bot her and his girlfriend, both physically and mentally.

I'm not saying whether the sentence was too soft or not, I don't know enough about the case but just saying that these are huge factors to consider, along with the accuseds previous good character and likelihood of re-offending. One slight offence and she is to serve out that sentence...

I know it can outrage peoples sensabilities, but imagine it was something that happened in your family, would that change your outlook?

And as for women get lighter sentences, definitely and easier time.
And thats right across the spectrum, most obviously in sexual offences where if two 15 year olds have sex, the boy is a criminal the girl is not.
With regards to incest, a womans max penalty is 7 years, a mans is life

We're still a long way off equality...

OutlawPete

Teutorix wrote: »

I think ill go back to lurking

Don't do that

I was trying to compare what someone's reaction would be to hearing a brother had steak knifed his sister to a sister doing the same to her brother.

It was a social experiment of sorts, all be it an unsuccessful one.

IvySlayer

The law is sexist. Women have more rights when it comes to children. This woman should've been punished. A 5 year suspended sentence is a joke.

If it was a man, I'd have no doubt there would've been a violent backlash.

Teutorix

OutlawPete wrote: »

Don't do that

I was trying to compare what someone's reaction would be to hearing a brother had steak knifed his sister to a sister doing the same to her brother.

It was a social experiment of sorts, all be it an unsuccessful one.

oh right, i saw the title and was immediately confused because i knew about the woman getting sentenced for stabbing her brother but not about a similar case with a male offender.

alwaysadub

I actually didn't hear about this case.but in general,yeah i do think women's sentences are generally more leanient(sp) than a man's.

Hank_Jones

The justice system really is beyond a joke at this stage.
Regardless of the position that she was in, she still took another persons life.
To get a suspended sentence is outrageous.
I would have given her 5 years minimum.
Doesn't matter if he was a junkie, he was still a person.
Who is to say that he wouldn't have cleaned himself up and gone on to cure cancer?

Dont be at yourself

Here's what Jack Straw has to say:

Jack Straw says punish women 'in the community'

Mr Straw said the female prison population was falling
Vulnerable female offenders should be punished in the community rather than being sent to prison, Justice Secretary Jack Straw has said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8393965.stm

What a depressing world we live in.

OutlawPete

Hank_Jones wrote: »

The justice system really is beyond a joke at this stage.
Regardless of the position that she was in, she still took another persons life.
To get a suspended sentence is outrageous.
I would have given her 5 years minimum.
Doesn't matter if he was a junkie, he was still a person.
Who is to say that he wouldn't have cleaned himself up and gone on to cure cancer?

The way I see it is, if he came over to her house and she flipped out and stabbed him with a steak knife as all the past years of torment just built up in her and they pleaded temporary insanity, I could accept that.

Suspended sentence make sure she's seen as an outpatient at a counseling service or something.

However, to deliberately bring a steak knife to somewhere you know your brother is, that you don't have to be, is not excusable.

streings

OutlawPete wrote: »

That's my point.

I don't.

Why do you think its because she's a woman, and not any other random fact about her, like she's 19 or from kilkenny?

OutlawPete

streings wrote: »

Why do you think its because she's a woman, and not any other random fact about her, like she's 19 or from kilkenny?

If a man went to party and killed his brother with a steak knife that he deliberately brought with him, he would get a hell of lot more than just a suspended sentence.

How do I know?

Because I read the newspapers.

Just carrying knives for protection is against the law, let alone killing someone.

streings

OutlawPete wrote: »

If a man went to party and killed his brother with a steak knife that he deliberately brought with him, he would get a hell of lot more than just a suspended sentence.

How do I know?

Because I read the newspapers.

Just carrying knives for protection is against the law, let alone killing someone.

Unless you can find a case where a man did that, his whole family appealed for him not to be sent to jail, and the Director of Public Prosecution told the judge he would not appeal a suspended sentence i believe you have no basis for your argument. And theyre only the bits I know of. The judge presumably had other reasons for giving out that sentence.

OutlawPete

streings wrote: »

Unless you can find a case where a man did that, his whole family appealed for him not to be sent to jail, and the Director of Public Prosecution told the judge he would not appeal a suspended sentence i believe you have no basis for your argument.

Look, you can believe whatever it is you wish to believe. Asking me to find an exact same case or my point is moot, is a kop out.

The only case that came close was when a guy got found to have a mental disorder which is why I said if she was found to have snapped, I'd understand it.

It simply would never happen and if it did, the whine line's phones would be hopping off the wall as they'd want the man bastard locked up for knifing his sister.

streings wrote: »

The judge presumably had other reasons for giving out that sentence.

The brother did not follow her, she is the one who brought a steak knife to a party in full knowledge that her brother was a bit of a nut job.

Liam Byrne

minidazzler wrote: »

Yeah, killing is killing.

There is a difference between Murder and Manslaughter though.

Murder involves planning and intent.

You could argue that bringing a steak knife with her indicates intent.

Prof.Badass

Advancements in gender equality still haven't done much to rectify the discrimination facing men, not just with regards this issue, but in lots of other areas too.

I have no doubt that if the genders were reversed the man would have been locked up without question (i wonder what eamonn lillis is doing right now....simmilar story- abusive person killed by "victim" of opposite sex).
It really annoys me that women quite regularly literally get away with murder just by saying "he was abusive" or something to that effect.

When it comes to domestic dischord there really seems to be this entrenched notion that women can do no wrong. That if any man is verbally abusive or ever uses physical force (we're not even talking about hitting here), he is automatically a callous bully and that she is a complete victim, with there being no chance that he's just trying to stand up for himself or that she is just as bad or worse (I definitely don't think a normal person would kill someone no matter how abusive they were).

I'd even go as far as to say that some absolute bitches of women can get away with treating their children in such a way that no father could ever get away with (not neccesarily talking about legally getting away with it, more how socially tolerated the behaviour is- how compelled others are to intervene etc.).

The sad thing for me is that it's not something we can blame on women, these backward sexist notions are held by men just as much as by women (maybe even moreso). So clearly it's not just an issue that government need to adresss, but each person themselves.

goose2005

streings wrote: »

Unless you can find a case where a man did that, his whole family appealed for him not to be sent to jail, and the Director of Public Prosecution told the judge he would not appeal a suspended sentence i believe you have no basis for your argument. And theyre only the bits I know of. The judge presumably had other reasons for giving out that sentence.

I know of a case where a 16-y-o killed his sister after a row with implements that just happened to be in the home, he served about 5 years for manslaughter. And he was a minor.

Look at the incredible disparity between women's and men's prisons here: http://www.cfj.ie/content/view/243/3/ Bizarrely, the article complains that women in Limerick prison are treated the same as mere men, rather than arguing against the privileges in the "Dóchas Centre".

cafecolour

I don't think it's explicitly women. Cases where one person is considered an 'upstanding citizen' and the other a 'scumbag', the 'upstanding citizen' tends to get off lightly. Especially if there's any hint of self-defense.

Honestly, there seems to be plenty of complaints that the Irish justice system tends to be light. I remember when the swiss girl was killed in Galway a few years ago, yer one that did had a huge history - killed a man in a brawl, raped multiple women, attacked and blinded an old man. He got a few years for each at most.

So if someone who's a notorious scumbag gets only a few years for killing someone, I'm not surprised when this case just gets a suspended sentence.

cafecolour

Okay, a quick google of 'suspended sentence manslaughter ireland'. After the sister case, I quickly found this:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2009/0430/ireland/six-years-suspended-for-manslaughter-of-father-408911.html

Lad gets suspended sentence for beating his father to death (sentence April 09)

http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/index.aspx?c=ireland&jp=eyeymheyojcw

Man gets suspended sentence for killing flatmate (sentence Jan 10)

So, no, if we're going on anecdotal evidence, I don't think women get off any lighter when it comes to the justice system. Now if you want to ask if everyone gets off light, I might have a different answer

fulhamfanincork

The news said that the brother was known to be abusive toward her sister.

She says she brought the knife for protection, surely the question has to be asked as to why she went to the party if she knew her brother would be there?

OutlawPete

cafecolour wrote: »

Lad gets suspended sentence for beating his father to death (sentence April 09)

No weapon involved and so can hardly be called premeditated.

Disgraceful sentence too though.

cafecolour wrote: »

Man gets suspended sentence for killing flatmate (sentence Jan 10)

The guy got 5 1/2 years??

Mrmoe

The whole justice system is very lenient anyway never mind when it comes to sentencing women. I would say that there is a definite disparity with the way male and female offenders are dealt with.

cafecolour

OutlawPete wrote: »

No weapon involved and so can hardly be called premeditated.

I don't think it was actually premeditated in that she was going to kill her brother, I think she knew there could be trouble and wanted to be prepared - and possibly scare him off.

Ie lets say there's a group of scumbags that always hang out on the street where I live, and hassle me when I go to the shop. I get fed up with it and bring a bat with me. I'm not intending to beat them with it - it's to say f*ck off it they try it with me this time. But of course, the mere fact that I have a bat ends up escalating it and I end up bashing one's head in.

OutlawPete wrote: »

The guy got 5 1/2 years??

Whoops, you're right, I misread the article, only the last year and half was suspended.

IvySlayer

What about your one in Roscommon. The child abuse/incest case. If I rememeber, didn't the judge say if the guilty was a man, he would've gotten life?

OutlawPete

cafecolour wrote: »

I think she knew there could be trouble and wanted to be prepared - and possibly scare him off. I'm not intending to beat them with it - it's to say f*ck off it they try it with me this time.

Her boyfriend said that on the night she said:

"Michael is going to start trouble tonight"

cafecolour wrote: »

Whoops, you're right, I misread the article, only the last year and half was suspended.

No problem, just 'thank' all my posts for one week as way of a penance

Dudess

Whether the justice system in general is biased in favour of women, I'm not sure - but I'm certain this cannot be ascertained either way via one or two examples.

I wholeheartedly agree the justice system is biased in favour of women when it comes to the specific issue of parental rights though.

zootroid

Dudess wrote: »

Whether the justice system in general is biased in favour of women, I'm not sure - but I'm certain this cannot be ascertained either way via one or two examples.

I wholeheartedly agree the justice system is biased in favour of women when it comes to the specific issue of parental rights though.

There should be consistency though, as a particular sentence sets a precedent.

Personally, I feel she got off too lightly, and should have gotten a jail sentence of at least 3 years. I accept there are a number of mitigating circumstances in the case, but at the end of the day, a man lost his life at the hands of a person who was carrying a knife.

Nightwish

I am familiar with the family in question as they live not too far away from me. I know someone who lived right across the road from the deceased prior to his death. He was not a pleasant person at all. The people in the estate had a terrible time, with him living there. He was a violent heroin addict. The tale of his sister killing him was tragic. It was highly negligent of her to bring a knife with her. However, knowing people close to the case I can kinda see how she got a lenient sentence.

aDeener

Mrmoe wrote: »

The whole justice system is very lenient anyway never mind when it comes to sentencing women. I would say that there is a definite disparity with the way male and female offenders are dealt with.

It is very lenient full stop.

Dudess

Mrmoe wrote: »

I would say that there is a definite disparity with the way male and female offenders are dealt with.

Based on what? In high-profile cases, there is a difference in how the media treats things depending on the gender(s) of the accused (and it's not necessarily "softer" on women - e.g. Nevin, Mulhalls, Hindley) but is there a concrete pattern of women getting an easier ride when it comes to sentencing?

goose2005

IvySlayer wrote: »

What about your one in Roscommon. The child abuse/incest case. If I rememeber, didn't the judge say if the guilty was a man, he would've gotten life?

But that wasn't a problem in the justice system (the application of the law), it was a problem in the law itself, where a woman couldn't be convicted of raping a boy or man.

WindSock

Just like men, some do and some don't

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mums-jailed-after-getting-lost-on-daytrip-drugs-run-1238348.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=mhaukfsnsnau

walshb

The woman went to the man in the house and brought a knife with her. Now, if she really was in such fear of trouble, why the **** go at all? She knifed him to death and serves ZERO time. Jeez, I'd say Mr. Lillis is doing his nut now.

Of course, the defence and others painted the dead man as a gouger and a scumbag, an allegation he cannot defend against (dead men tell no tales).

But lets say he was a nasty piece of work, did he ask for this? She went to the house armed with the knife and as far as I know, he never attacked her in the house.

He happened to be "in her way" at the door, obstructing her pathway out of the house.

DamoDLK

I'm bloody fed up with the legal system, its disheartening really. The public have no respect or confidence in it anymore. When I get back i'll reform it. facebook group all the way!

O.T. It was too lenient of course.

Kev_ps3

Liberalism is running riot in this country. A week or two ago we had that guy getting a few years for murdering his wife and now we get this.
The Irish people need to wake up and revolt against this criminal establishment.