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Yemen Child Brides

24

Comments

  • #32
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Iolar wrote: »
    I dont think its as much as an islamic custom per say,is it not more custom of Arabs/Bedouins?

    Its also a custom in parts of India with some Hindus and in parts of Ethiopia/Africa with many christians/animists. However, its convenient for some to just tag it as a "muslim" thing.


  • #33
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Wherever there are toothless yokel societies, there are child brides.

    True words, Sir.


  • #34
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I agree completely. It did happen in loads of places including here. The difference people miss(mostly because they are used to christianity that had evolution and reformation) is Islam is not a religion very open to adaptation. Its more pickled in the time whence it came.

    Certainly its not adaptable when it comes to the morality or practices and lifestyle of the prophet. He is (naturally) considered along with other prophets the highest person morally in the faith. So anything he practiced is considered equally moral or a duty. Now the majority of Muslims defo in more enlightened richer societies would frown on a 9 year old being married to a 50+ year old today, but would be a tad uncomfortable with dealing with the fact Mohammad did.

    Pickled in time. I could not put it better myself. For years I always assumed Islam was a much older religion than Christianity. I recently found out that it was established 600 years after the birth of Christ. 600 years! Why then does it seem so old and out of date? Well you have just summed it up.


  • #35
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    General Zod wrote: »
    Yes, we'd never do anything as brutal as that. Industrial schools.

    Can't let you away with that one. In Yemen it's LEGAL.


  • #36
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    However, its convenient for some to just tag it as a "muslim" thing.

    Not 'convenient'. If the story in the OP was in India with Hindus, or Africa with animists people would be justified in questioning what belief system people were using to rationalise their actions, it wasn't anywhere else, it was Yemen.


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  • #37
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    Not 'convenient'. If the story in the OP was in India with Hindus, or Africa with animists people would be justified in questioning what belief system people were using to rationalise their actions, it wasn't anywhere else, it was Yemen.

    Do people use child brides as an excuse to bash the Muslims? Yes. Do they ignore the others who do the same? Why yes they do. Hence, as I said "However, its convenient for some to just tag it as a "Muslim" thing.".

    Try reading what's there as opposed to what you want to see.


  • #38
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    Do people use child brides as an excuse to bash the Muslims? Yes. Do they ignore the others who do the same? Why yes they do.

    Are you actually making a comment pertaining to the thread and the OP or just a general false statement?


  • #39
    cafecolour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,328 ✭✭✭cafecolour


    It'd also be a 'custom' - though illegal - in some offshoot mormon polyamorous cults in the US.

    The founder of the mormon church - Joseph Smith - was polyamorous and had brides as young as 14. The mainline church has long ago forbid polyamory - it was a condition of Utah becoming part of the US. But there are different offshoots that remain.

    Essentially older men will basically swap their younger daughters with their friends - ie she'll marry you and yours can marry me. A lot of the younger men are driven out because there isn't enough women for them.

    Now they are totally illegal, and have been for decades, but they remain in small enclaves.


  • #40
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    syklops wrote: »
    I recently found out that it was established 600 years after the birth of Christ. 600 years! Why then does it seem so old and out of date? Well you have just summed it up.

    OK, on one hand it is older. This is the scene. Christ arrived on Earth and started spreading the word. This outraged the establishment and a Roman governor was tricked into executing him. However, the lad had a great following and as the Roman Empire split and was being invaded by rabble the Roman senate did a huge con trick and started the Roman Catholic Church.

    This hovered up a lot of believers, including a whole bunch of Jewish who wished to believe and this prospered for some 300 years. Unfortunately we all know what the intentions of the Catholic Church was from the very beginning, it had nothing to do with God/Christ but more of domination and slavery without the use of a standing army.

    Islam came about as they realised exactly what the Roman Catholic Church was in fact doing, and with it’s massive wealth to boot. A huge ground well erupted into Islam, loosely based on the principal what if the Roman Catholic Church was the way forward, then a backward step was really necessary ~ now we could agree with this today.

    So in essence the Islamic community were there and were intrigued by Christ and joined the RCC in 300AD [approx] and decided a return to older traditions and VALUES were essential and around 600AD Islam formed.


  • #41
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    gbee wrote: »
    Islam came about as they realised exactly what the Roman Catholic Church was in fact doing, and with it’s massive wealth to boot. A huge ground well erupted into Islam, loosely based on the principal what if the Roman Catholic Church was the way forward, then a backward step was really necessary ~ now we could agree with this today.
    So in essence the Islamic community were there and were intrigued by Christ and joined the RCC in 300AD [approx] and decided a return to older traditions and VALUES were essential and around 600AD Islam formed.

    What a load of total nonsense.


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  • #42
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    Are you actually making a comment pertaining to the thread and the OP or just a general false statement?

    You know what I'm getting at. Stop being obtuse.


  • #43
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Thanks Caoimhín and Wibbs, I didn't know it was even mentioned in the Koran.


  • #44
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    cafecolour wrote: »
    The founder of the mormon church - Joseph Smith - was polyamorous and had brides as young as 14. .

    Indeed this is why they fled the eastern coast for the west. Until sometime in the 1900's did the law in the west change from allowing 12 years-olds to marry. It was 'frontier law' and whilst not acted upon was still legal until the 1960s ~ but I'd have to look that up.


  • #45
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    biko wrote: »
    Thanks Caoimhín and Wibbs, I didn't know it was even mentioned in the Koran.

    Those quote were from Hadiths, and not the Koran btw.


  • #46
    we'llallhavetea_old
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭we'llallhavetea_old


    Nodin wrote: »
    Do people use child brides as an excuse to bash the Muslims? Yes. Do they ignore the others who do the same? Why yes they do. Hence, as I said "However, its convenient for some to just tag it as a "Muslim" thing.".

    Try reading what's there as opposed to what you want to see.

    i have no idea what religions do what, but if the op posted a story about a child bride being tortured/killed during sex, i would be disgusted regardless of what religion the perpetrators were.
    do you mean that "people" would ignore it if another religion do it?
    i'm confused by the highlighted statement. :confused:


  • #47
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    You know what I'm getting at. Stop being obtuse.

    "Son, you're forgetting yourself", as the warden said to Andy.


  • #48
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    we'llallhavetea wrote: »
    .
    do you mean that "people" would ignore it if another religion do it?
    i'm confused by the highlighted statement. :confused:

    Absolutely. Whens the last time you saw a thread about the treatment and conditions of Women in Latin America? 99 times out 100 when there's a thread on the treatment of women and children, its targeted at muslims or an islamic country, yet there's no way in hell its only societies where Islam is predominant that maltreatment and brutal customs occur in.


  • #49
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    Absolutely. Whens the last time you saw a thread about ......

    News item of the day tends to get a thread...

    Edit: Interestingly enought there's a thread on the front page about the case of Holly Grieg. So go figure that one out.


  • #50
    we'llallhavetea_old
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭we'llallhavetea_old


    Nodin wrote: »
    Absolutely. Whens the last time you saw a thread about the treatment and conditions of Women in Latin America? 99 times out 100 when there's a thread on the treatment of women and children, its targeted at muslims or an islamic country, yet there's no way in hell its only societies where Islam is predominant that maltreatment and brutal customs occur in.

    ah ok...

    people are gonna post whats in the news, i suppose the stories of latin america doesn't make the cut over here. i don't know whose fault this is.


  • #51
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    we'llallhavetea wrote: »
    ah ok...

    people are gonna post whats in the news, i suppose the stories of latin america doesn't make the cut over here. i don't know whose fault this is.

    They do occassionally. Doesn't have that Muslim "x factor" though...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4074880.stm
    Liliana Rojero Luevano, executive secretary of Mexico's National Women's Institute, said a national opinion poll carried out in 2006 on the dynamics of domestic relations showed that 70 per cent of Mexican women surveyed had suffered domestic violence.
    The number of young women who claim to have suffered violence at the hands of their boyfriends is also striking, observers said. The figure rises to 55.8 per cent in teenagers asked recently, Rojero Luevano said at the event led by Calderon.
    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/americas/news/article_1376572.php/In_Mexico_80_per_cent_of_murdered_women_killed_by_family_members


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  • #52
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Nodin wrote: »
    Absolutely. Whens the last time you saw a thread about the treatment and conditions of Women in Latin America?
    Nodin wrote: »
    They do occassionally. Doesn't have that Muslim "x factor" though...

    Are you implying that I picked the story because it was to do with Muslims?


  • #53
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,043 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8610491.stm
    A 13-year-old Yemeni girl has died of internal bleeding three days after being married, rights groups say.

    The report comes amid ongoing debate on setting a minimum age for brides in Yemen, where more than a quarter of girls are married before the age of 15.

    A 2009 law setting the minimum age at 17 was repealed after some lawmakers said it was un-Islamic. A final decision is due this month.

    There was no official confirmation of the death by Yemeni officials.

    The girl, said to have been married to a man in his 20s, died in the west of the country last week, the Arab Sisters Forum (Saf) rights group said.

    A medical report by the hospital where she was treated said she had suffered a tear to her genitals and severe bleeding after intercourse, the group said.

    In a statement obtained by the Reuters news agency, Unicef's regional director, Sigrid Kaag, said the UN child agency was "dismayed by the death of yet another child bride in Yemen".

    Human rights groups have been pressurising the authorities to outlaw family-arranged child marriages in Yemen, which has a tribal social structure.

    Child brides often die in child birth as thier bodies are frankly not developed enough to endure pregnancy and birth.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/14/yemen.childbirth.death/index.html
    A 12-year-old Yemeni girl, who was forced into marriage, died during a painful childbirth that also killed her baby, a children's rights group said Monday.

    Fawziya Ammodi struggled for three days in labor, before dying of severe bleeding at a hospital on Friday, said the Seyaj Organization for the Protection of Children.

    "Although the cause of her death was lack of medical care, the real case was the lack of education in Yemen and the fact that child marriages keep happening," said Seyaj President Ahmed al-Qureshi.

    Born into an impoverished family in Hodeidah, Fawziya was forced to drop out of school and married off to a 24-year-old man last year, al-Qureshi said.

    Child brides are commonplace in Yemen, especially in the Red Sea Coast where tribal customs hold sway. Hodeidah is the fourth largest city in Yemen and an important port.

    More than half of all young Yemeni girls are married off before the age of 18 -- many times to older men, some with more than one wife, a study by Sanaa University found.
    Don't Miss

    * Child bride's nightmare after divorce
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    While it was not immediately known why Fawziya's parents married her off, the reasons vary. Sometimes, financially-strapped parents offer up their daughters for hefty dowries.

    Marriage means the girls are no longer a financial or moral burden to their parents. And often, parents will extract a promise from the husband to wait until the girl is older to consummate the marriage.

    Children's organization UNICEF issued a statement Monday saying: "Child marriages violate the rights of children in the most deplorable way. The younger the girl is when she becomes pregnant, the greater the health risks for her and her baby.

    "Girls who give birth before the age of 15 are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women in their 20s. Child marriage denies girls of their childhood, deprives them of an education and robs them of their innocence."

    "More must be done to address the underlying causes in order to prevent tragic deaths like those of 12-year-old Fawziya and her baby," the statement added.

    The issue of Yemeni child brides came to the forefront in 2008 with 10-year-old Nujood Ali.

    She was pulled out of school and married to a man who beat and raped her within weeks of the ceremony.

    To escape, Nujood hailed a taxi -- the first time in her life -- to get across town to the central courthouse where she sat on a bench and demanded to see a judge.
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    After a well-publicized trial, she was granted a divorce.

    The Yemeni parliament tried in February to pass a law, setting the minimum marriage age at 17. But the measure has not reached the president because many parliamentarians argued it violates sharia, or Islamic law, which does not stipulate a minimum age.


  • #54
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    prinz wrote: »
    What a load of total nonsense.
    Well to a point. One could argue there is a lot of continuation going on with judaism and christianity. Muslims themselves see it as a continuation. The "true" abrahamic faith.
    biko wrote: »
    Thanks Caoimhín and Wibbs, I didn't know it was even mentioned in the Koran.
    Like wes said its not in the Koran, but in the hadeeth, (very) basically the biography of the prophet and the early faith. It's defo not in the Koran AFAIK. Indeed one area where change could come is Muslims only following the Koran. Make a big diff. Yes there are some passages in there that may raise eyebrows(like in the gospels/old testament), but it is much much more considered, inclusive and peaceful. I gather there are some who already do as they consider the hadeeth unreliable and not the word of Allah. I cant see it gaining that much support though as the Koran itself holds Mohammad as a good(if not the best) example of a good Muslim.
    Nodin wrote: »
    They do occassionally. Doesn't have that Muslim "x factor" though...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4074880.stm


    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/americas/news/article_1376572.php/In_Mexico_80_per_cent_of_murdered_women_killed_by_family_members
    I agree. well out of order and the society must look at itself if it allows this kind of treament of women. Mexico another place. 1000's of young women go missing every year. Sold into prostitution, ransomed or simply murdered. An appalling record of abuse towards women.

    Where Islam(and say mormanism) triggers a response is it appears to be part and parcel of the fabric of the belief. Mexicans would be mostly christians and murder of women is not exactly lauded, however you chose to interpret the faith. Child brides is part of both the local culture and the faith of Islam and the middle east. Indeed Aisha the wife in question is lauded as one of the best examples of Muslim womanhood.

    Now yes child brides were going on in europe and elsewhere too. Not just among the poor BTW. A helluva lot of kings and queens were married off as kids. It still goes on today in other cultures.

    Where I have an issue is when this is a religious example. Particularly where the religious example is supposed to be an unchanging moral code from god for all time and all peoples, which the Koran states it is. Little or no avenue for change there. Plus Islam is all inclusive. In a perfect Islamic state it includes the state and law(sharia) down to the minutiae of how you live your life. In the south american example, the abuse is not enshrined in law, by the state with religious backing. There is a diff.

    Now I do agree that Islam gets the beady eye on it too much currently and things ascribed to it pilloried in the press. The same things we were at not too long ago. And still are. To quote the lad from Galilee, "and why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not see the plank in your own eye". I would be mindful of that and mindful that we should look closer to home and elsewhere for abuse of humanity. That said it would be one reason why I would not live in an Islamic state or support any move towards that in a liberal democracy.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #55
    supermonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭supermonkey


    prinz wrote: »

    In Christianity Mary herself was only supposed to have been barely a teenager.

    She was a virgin; after having a baby sex with Joseph would not have been a problem.


  • #56
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    biko wrote: »
    Thanks Caoimhín and Wibbs, I didn't know it was even mentioned in the Koran.

    It's in a hadith, collated some 300 years after Mohammeds death, and there is some debate as to the veracity of the girls age.
    There's some evidence to suggest she was older
    The popular misconception regarding Aishah’s age may be removed here. . . . Isabah, speaking of the Holy Prophet’s daughter Fatimah, says that she was about five years older than Aishah. It is a well-established fact that Fatimah was born when the Ka’bah was being rebuilt, i.e, five years before the Call. Therefore Aisha was born in the year of the Call or a bit before it, and she could not have been less than ten years at the time of her marriage with the Holy Prophet in the tenth year of the Call. . . . And as the period between her marriage and its consummation was not less than five years, because the consummation took place in the 2nd year of the Flight, it follows that she could not have been less than fifteen at that time. The popular account saying she was six years at marriage and nine years at the time of consummation is decidedly not correct because it supposes the period between the marriage and its consummation to be only three years, and this is historically wrong.

    More here; http://www.hamariweb.com/article.aspx?id=6181


  • #57
    supermonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭supermonkey


    Even if she was fifteen the age difference is disgusting.
    It was even worse with Mary and Yahweh.


  • #58
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,915 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    ****e just seen the picture and worse below it, for those who want to see how barbaric these countries are click on the following link, if your easily upset DONT http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/shaming-in-laws-costs-19-year-old-her-nose-ears/


  • #59
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Are you implying that I picked the story because it was to do with Muslims?

    No, I'm saying that some seize on this issue when it arises to bash muslims. We've at least one of the usual suspects present. If I thought you had picked it for those reasons, I wouldn't beat around the bush with an implication.


  • #60
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Nodin wrote: »
    If I thought you had picked it for those reasons, I wouldn't beat around the bush with an implication.

    Yeah, what would you do? Violence, is that it? Are you threatening me Sir? :p

    Here's a news report of an eight year old who was forced into marriage.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms8tnn8klF8


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  • #61
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Yeah, what would you do? Violence, is that it?

    Saying 'You only picked that out coz they were teh muzlims' was more what I was getting at, but if you want handbags at dawn, so be it....


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