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Gay Pride Parades - self defeating?

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  • 06-04-2010 8:36pm
    #1
    Donnaghm
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭


    Hi all,
    I was just wondering what are your views of the concept of Gay Pride Parades. It's been the subject of many a debate I've had with my mates recently, the majority of whom are straight males. They're fine with gay people, hence they're my mates, but they find the parades disturbing and alienating. They seem to think, our cause(greater civil liberties and creating awareness of homosexuality) would be best served if "normal joes" were marching in the parades as opposed to the camp extravaganza and shirtless torsos that tend to comprise Gay Pride Parades.

    My own view is that they may have a point. Open to changing my mind on the issue of course.
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    #2
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Look at it as a parade celebrating people on the fringes of social norms.


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    #3
    Donnaghm
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭Donnaghm


    Boston wrote: »
    Look at it as a parade celebrating people on the fringes of social norms.

    The fringes of social norms my arse, LGBT people represent about 5-7% of the population, that's hardly on the fringes. There's probably less Protestants in the Republic.


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    #4
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Donnaghm wrote: »
    The fringes of social norms my arse, LGBT people represent about 5-7% of the population, that's hardly on the fringes. There's probably less Protestants in the Republic.

    But gay pride only represents a minority of LGBT people. The figure for the LGB population is closer to 10%. Thus each years parade should be massive on the scale of St patricks day, but they're not. The people who take part in gay pride parades are by and large representing the fringes.


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    #5
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,991 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Donnaghm wrote: »
    They seem to think, our cause(greater civil liberties and creating awareness of homosexuality) would be best served if "normal joes" were marching in the parades as opposed to the camp extravaganza and shirtless torsos that tend to comprise Gay Pride Parades.

    When you look in the middle of the crowd it is mostly made up of "normal joes" - The flamboyant ones just stand out more and get picked up by media photographers more.

    For me it's a celebration of who we are and our diversity and being proud of being different - why should people have to be "deemed acceptable" or "on message" or "straight acting" before they can march?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #6
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Yeah I can understand what you're saying. It is a thing I noticed especially when I read the homosexual thread in the gentlemans club. Quite alot of comments stated that although the poster mentioned they had no problem with gay people but the whole gay pride parade and festivities erked many. I think the pride parades are needed as with the hype they create they allowed equality issues and such to be highlighted with a stronger voice. I can also see the other side too.

    I'll probably get a load of stick for this but if I have throw my cynical hat on as a straight middle of the road heterosexual man. I can also see the whole parade thing as BS. Please don't crucify me for saying the following but it often seems ,as many of the people in te thread I already mentioned, at times "It seems as though as if gay people want a trophy or a pat on the back for being LGB or T". I hope I don't offen but I'm sure I am. But is the whole "We're queer and we're here"- marching down the road nessassary? I agree with Donn in the fact it would be best served if "normal joes" were marching in the parades as opposed to the camp extravaganza and shirtless torsos that tend to comprise Gay Pride Parades. I guess this is just the extremely overt sexual side of the gay scene ruining it for others.

    I feel no need to involve people in a "celebration" to show that I am straight?


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    #7
    Dwn Wth Vwls
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Dwn Wth Vwls


    I've had this discussion with people before and it can go on forever.

    If the parade was just a bunch of normal people walking down the street, who'd bother going to look at it? Why would they take photos or put it on TV or talk about it? A certain element of it has to be attention-grabbing, or it would defeat the purpose. The purpose being to say "hello, we're here, we're a part of society and we're not going anywhere".

    Besides, it's as much entertainment as anything, and the streets are lined with people just watching the craziness go past. It's the same as St. Patrick's Day in that regard. Considering how many people seem to enjoy it (Gay Christmas or whatever), I don't see why they'd stop just because some people who probably don't know much about it find it "disturbing".

    Apart from all that, I think a pride parade will always be important as long as there people who can't have one. There are countries where you still get executed for being gay. There are countries where the police will arrest you for trying to have a pride parade. There are countless people who live miserable terrified lives, because they're afraid someone will find out that they're gay. The pride parade is for those people too, to give them hope.

    Also people here (even gay people) say, what's the point in pride, when you can be gay now, nobody cares. Well, there's not exactly equal rights yet. For that I can only point you to this blog post. (Not currently working, so here.)


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    #8
    Donnaghm
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭Donnaghm


    Terrific points made by all, particularly the one made by Down with Vowels when he/she talked about the plight of gay people in less progressive societies. I feel like an idiot for even raising the question.


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    #9
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    I don't believe in 'pride' parades in a country with no gay civil marriage, no trans-rights and an enormous problem with homophobic bullying in schools. Whatever about the parades representing the most flamboyant, stereotypical section of the community, I don't care be who you want to be. But we don't need a parade, we need a march.


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    #10
    Dwn Wth Vwls
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Dwn Wth Vwls


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    I don't believe in 'pride' parades in a country with no gay civil marriage, no trans-rights and an enormous problem with homophobic bullying in schools. Whatever about the parades representing the most flamboyant, stereotypical section of the community, I don't care be who you want to be. But we don't need a parade, we need a march.

    The first Dublin Pride was held in 1983 and it was a march. Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1993 (before you were born?). I can only imagine how momentous an occasion that was for people, can you really blame them for celebrating? If people waited for everything to be perfect before being happy about it, it might never happen. Pride also does a lot to motivate people and bring groups together, who then work on issues the rest of the year.

    There are marches and protests and lobbying going on all the time, but there's nothing wrong with celebrating too. Progress is made as time goes on, and even your perception of the whole thing is testament to that. There are probably plenty of people around today, who never imagined being able to tell anyone they were gay, let alone having equal rights. Now you grow up expecting and demanding nothing less, and that's fantastic. Pride does not mean that you've settled or given up, if anything it riles people up for more.


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    #11
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    OK, fair point. However I think the gay community is very complacent with its current status. Pride has a place. Celebration has a place. I still think we waste the one time of the year people are looking at us on just that? The protests are tiny compared to the parade. I'm not happy that we as a community just went, OK its not a crime anymore, job basically done.We're nowhere near done. Done is miles and miles away. I think if we really had pride like we think we do it would be expressed in absolute rage. So I guess I kind of said the wrong thing, pride is good, the way we're using it is way off the mark. You've probably already read it, but I basically just echo everything Miss Panti said in her no more Mr.Nice gay post
    http://lgbtnoise.ie/?p=634


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    #12
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,991 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Donnaghm wrote: »
    I feel like an idiot for even raising the question.
    No, you shouldn't feel like an idiot, you made some points that many would agree with, nothing wrong with that

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #13
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,991 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    OK, fair point. However I think the gay community is very complacent with its current status. Pride has a place. Celebration has a place. I still think we waste the one time of the year people are looking at us on just that? The protests are tiny compared to the parade. I'm not happy that we as a community just went, OK its not a crime anymore, job basically done.We're nowhere near done. Done is miles and miles away. I think if we really had pride like we think we do it would be expressed in absolute rage. So I guess I kind of said the wrong thing, pride is good, the way we're using it is way off the mark. You've probably already read it, but I basically just echo everything Miss Panti said in her no more Mr.Nice gay post
    http://lgbtnoise.ie/?p=634

    within Dublin pride people do use it to campaign for all those causes and Panti gives a great motivational speech on rights - rights based groups and political parties all take part in the Parade

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #14
    ding-dong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46 ✭ding-dong


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    I don't believe in 'pride' parades in a country with no gay civil marriage, no trans-rights and an enormous problem with homophobic bullying in schools. Whatever about the parades representing the most flamboyant, stereotypical section of the community, I don't care be who you want to be. But we don't need a parade, we need a march.

    Great point - I think Gay pride is counterproductive in a lot of cases. Sure it's like Paddy's day but perception is important - gay people rarely get chances to be visible on a large scale. On a personal level, I found pride marches quite alienating growing up, but that may have had more to do with the selective footage/images shown by the media. I'm sure the people who participate have a blast, but it certainly didn't fill me with pride. The slightly nutty gay culture imagery is something I could have done without, it would have made stuff much easier I think - but I'm sure others who fit the profile benefited where I didn't. A march is something I feel I can be proud of - and it's something that I believe attracts a far more diverse and representative crowd than pride. Actually, I was at the march last year, it had a much more serious tone but it was still great fun! It is ironic though, that "pride" can be seen as being so tacky and vulgar, that it makes people feel shame.


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    #15
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    Johnnymcg: To a much smaller extent than they could be using it. I'm thinking something more along the lines of the union marches then the current thing which is more of a big party that some political groups come to.Panti is fantastic at speeches, but they should be outside the Dail where the people we need to listen can hear them. Rousing speeches to gay people is just preaching to the choir.
    Ding-dong
    A march is something I feel I can be proud of - and it's something that I believe attracts a far more diverse and representative crowd than pride. Actually, I was at the march last year, it had a much more serious tone but it was still great fun! It is ironic though, that "pride" can be seen as being so tacky and vulgar, that it makes people feel shame.

    well said.


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    #16
    Dwn Wth Vwls
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Dwn Wth Vwls


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    OK, fair point. However I think the gay community is very complacent with its current status. Pride has a place. Celebration has a place. I still think we waste the one time of the year people are looking at us on just that? The protests are tiny compared to the parade. I'm not happy that we as a community just went, OK its not a crime anymore, job basically done.We're nowhere near done. Done is miles and miles away. I think if we really had pride like we think we do it would be expressed in absolute rage. So I guess I kind of said the wrong thing, pride is good, the way we're using it is way off the mark. You've probably already read it, but I basically just echo everything Miss Panti said in her no more Mr.Nice gay post
    http://lgbtnoise.ie/?p=634

    I agree too (I even linked the same blog post earlier in this thread). I think most people just don't know what to do, or don't think that hanging around outside the Dáil achieves anything. There was a very large Noise march last year though.


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    #17
    ding-dong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46 ✭ding-dong


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    Johnnymcg: To a much smaller extent than they could be using it. I'm thinking something more along the lines of the union marches then the current thing which is more of a big party that some political groups come to.Panti is fantastic at speeches, but they should be outside the Dail where the people we need to listen can hear them. Rousing speeches to gay people is just preaching to the choir

    +1

    It's not the gays you have to impress...


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    #18
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,142 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    There are gay people who should be marching every year with us who can't because some scum decided the fact they were gay or they thought they were gay was reason enough to kick them to death.

    That's reason enough for the rest of us to march, whether it pisses people inside or outside the 'community' off or not.


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    #19
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,991 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ding-dong wrote: »
    +1

    It's not the gays you have to impress...
    Who says pride is about impressing anyone?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #20
    Dwn Wth Vwls
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Dwn Wth Vwls


    I have never really seen Pride in the media, so I can't say that I really know what imagery you're all reacting badly to. I did go to Pride last year for the first time ever though, and I suppose it wasn't what I expected. I don't remember anything about the "nutty gay culture" or what the floats were at all.

    My impression of it was purely a huge crowd of normal people, all enjoying the sunshine. The amazing thing about it is knowing that you're not alone in your feelings, and everybody there can either relate to you on some level or has no problem with it. It's powerful stuff to look around town and see it jammed full of people with pride flags. It's pretty encouraging.


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    #21
    Dwn Wth Vwls
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Dwn Wth Vwls


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    Panti is fantastic at speeches, but they should be outside the Dail where the people we need to listen can hear them. Rousing speeches to gay people is just preaching to the choir.

    No matter how rousing a speech is, one person standing outside the Dáil making perfect sense is not going to change anything. Politicians listen to their voters. What Panti's speeches are about (in my opinion) is motivating the crowd to go out and do their bit. If even 1% of people at Pride wrote a letter to a politician, it would probably make a far greater impact.


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    #22
    ding-dong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46 ✭ding-dong


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Who says pride is about impressing anyone?

    I was referring to a specific point, not pride in general. Incidentally, I do think pride impresses those who need to be reached in the equality debate, albeit negatively. As I said, it's one of the few opportunities people get to see "the gays" en masse. We don't come across as a very sophisticated bunch. So never mind the straight people that need to be swayed and think about closeted gay kids who have limited exposure to the Dublin gays and think - this is what it means to be gay? Of course, it doesn't, but for one day pride allows our sexual orientation to be hijacked by a small, but very extroverted part of gay Dublin.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/indepth/slideshows/gay-pride/

    I understand that the people that go have great craic. I just wish the day didn't inform people's impressions and opinions. Unfortunately, it does. Hey I can look at some of those photos and laugh - but if I ever do decide to go along to pride and have a laugh, I'll still be saying that it harmed me before it helped me. I'm sure the atmosphere is great, but if the most important day on the gay calendar is pride, I can't say I'm shocked when equality issues aren't treated as seriously as they should be in politics.


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    #23
    shoegirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    I've been to prides and pride-like events all over the world, and Dublin measures up very well in terms of community service. I also go most years to the Maspalomas pride in Gran Canaria and basically its entirely devoid of any real political action, and almost entirely commercialised for the benefit of both holidaymakers and business people almost all of the beneficiaries of whom are not local.

    The Dublin event is actually quite inclusive and does appeal to a broad range of people - from people who just want to go out and have a bit of fun, to those who want to make a statement for whatever reason. For some of these, the personal IS political, for others, it may be merely an act of personal expression.

    One thing I have noticed, however, is how the more commercial prides appeal - ironically - to the very people least benefitting from social change - and I mean single mums in tough working class regions where they could face horrible censure and harassment if the truth be known, people working in factories ostensibly diverse but in reality with a thin veil of hostility to gay folk, and people whose families don't accept them. I know a lot of these "weekend and holiday" gays who live their lives behind closed doors - sometimes out of misplaced fear, sometimes more genuine necessity, so they and their families don't have to endure an unfair level of harassment on their part.
    I would like to say I'd like to see a better society, but in the meantime, I do like the fact that there is somewhere for these people to go, however critical us more priveliged "out" folk might feel about it.


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    #24
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    ding-dong wrote: »
    I'll still be saying that it harmed me before it helped me.
    Would have to agree.

    I went along to the parade and the gathering afterwards last year -- good fun, good speeches, good sense of community and all the rest. But from the outside looking in, trying to come to terms with my own sexuality a few years back, I can't say I found much solace in the whole thing. It looks too much like a celebration of excess and hedonism... things which aren't particularly socially acceptable in any case. Why should sleeping with men give me a free pass when it comes to social acceptability?

    On the other hand, there are plenty who do relish the opportunity to be openly gender-neutral, extravagant, bright, colourful, whatever... and I'd be hesitant to deny them an outlet or to demand them out of the parade. It's the assertion that "THIS IS GAY" which bothers me... because it simply isn't.

    I also attended the Noise march last year... much more my type of thing. Of course, didn't get anywhere near the press coverage.


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    #25
    Reflector
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭Reflector


    I love pride parade, I don't understand the big issue with it. So what if people choose to express themselves, isn't the Patricks day festival a sense of pride. Do we not dress up in Gaudy costumes to "push" our Irishness in everyones face.
    Dressing in Leather or Drag isn't my thing but I certainly wont discriminate someone else from doing it.


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    #26
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Reflector wrote: »
    isn't the Patricks day festival a sense of pride.
    But there's a discernible difference

    Patrick's Parade (fun for everyone with an "OIrish" theme) : http://images.google.ie/images?q=st+patrick's+parade

    Gay Pride (probably NSFW) : http://images.google.ie/images?q=gay+pride


    I don't think it's about discriminating against it... just a desire for this not to be seen as "what it means to be gay".


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    #27
    Dwn Wth Vwls
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Dwn Wth Vwls


    Goodshape wrote: »
    just a desire for this not to be seen as "what it means to be gay".

    But who actually thinks that?


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    #28
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Dwn Wth Vwls wrote: »
    But who actually thinks that?
    Plenty of people. I thought it, to a certain extent, before I came out.

    A (straight) flatmate of mine was amazed upon his first visit to the George that it wasn't all feathers and leather and glam... but, shockingly, kinda just like any other nightclub.


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    #29
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    Dwn Wth Vwls wrote: »
    But who actually thinks that?

    Sadly I think a lot of people think this is what it means to be gay. Especially people who don't know any gay people and if this and what we see on TV (which is that all gay men are obsessed with fashion and are catty bitches ie. Ugly Betty) is all they have to build their knowledge of gay people on then of course this is all they're going to think about us. Its certainly what all my friends (who are 16 like me) think a gay person is like and what we really need to promote is a gay person is not 'like' anything. You can be really flamboyant or you can be a lawyer and wear suits all the time. Nearly every representation of LGBT people we have in the media is a stereotype and the one time of the year gay people get to say "This is what being gay means to me" all we get back is the same stuff the media tells us.


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    #30
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,142 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    Especially people who don't know any gay people

    Who would they be? Are there any on the planet?


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    #31
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    spurious wrote: »
    Who would they be? Are there any on the planet?

    Well I'm approaching this as a gay teenager, and I can safely tell you very few people in my school actually know a gay person because the circles are so closed into the school, nobody is out and its the same in every other school in the country. You just don't get the opportunity to meet people outside of your little bubble until you go to university.


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