Gay Pride Parades - self defeating?

Dwn Wth Vwls

I think a lot of people who question their sexuality go through a phase of thinking gay is "this" but I'm "that", so I can't be gay. It certainly never occurred to me that I could be bisexual because I was just a boring irish catholic-raised nerd, not an international movie or rock star. I don't think that line of thought is going anywhere any time soon, and I don't think Pride is to blame. It's just an easy target.

The problem with the media is that they're only interested in the extreme or unusual. There's absolutely nothing newsworthy about how normal most gay people are. Normal characters in tv shows who just happen to be gay? They do exist, but nobody talks about them much because they're not even that interesting. Almost everyone or everything in TV or films is an exaggeration or stereotype. You're just less likely to recognise the other stereotypes when they don't personally reflect on you.

Nebit

Personally i cant stand the 'pride' parades, not gone to one on the other hand, but i find them to be quite pointless, an excuse to drink and hook up with the nearest person.
Issues raised are never addressed and prancing around a street shifting is hardly making the public aware, rather reassuring their views towards the stereotype of gay.
Be honest the majority that go arnt there for a greater cause.
Outdated and pointless in my opinion.

Aoifums

ding-dong wrote: »

I'll still be saying that it harmed me before it helped me.

I have to disagree.

I remember writing something like this in a post just after Pride last year.
I never realised that there were however many thousand lgbt people. I mean, its obvious if you do the maths, but I never even thought that there might be so many gay people in Ireland. At a time when I could count the number of lgbt people I knew on one hand (3) it was pretty overwhelming.

The other really, really amazing thing was the amount of couples. You occasionally see a same sex couple holding hands but its always very discreet in a bad way. There were tons of couples which totally got rid of the "I'm destined to grow old and die alone because I'm gay" thing I had going on. And there were families! With kids. Which I had never seen before.

I know that sounds fairly stupid, but I was 16 and lonely and just out of the closet.

spurious wrote: »

Who would they be? Are there any on the planet?

Quite a lot. As crayolastereo said, a lot of people in secondary schools don't know anyone who's gay. It's a stupid enclosed environment and a lot of people aren't even out to their friends.

L1011

Nebit wrote: »

Personally i cant stand the 'pride' parades, not gone to one on the other hand, but i find them to be quite pointless, an excuse to drink and hook up with the nearest person.
Issues raised are never addressed and prancing around a street shifting is hardly making the public aware, rather reassuring their views towards the stereotype of gay.
Be honest the majority that go arnt there for a greater cause.
Outdated and pointless in my opinion.

1: "The Pride curse" ensures that nearly nobody succesfully hooks up with anyone :P
2: Theres nobody "prancing around [the] street shifting", you might want to go to one before you make assumptions. Dublin != New Orleans.

Dr. Baltar

I recently came out and decided that I'd go to the next pride march to show my support (when are the pride events actually?) but I've got to agree with previous posters: marching for the right to donate blood or marry like anyone else is fine by me, but flamboyantly prancing through the streets is something I would not like to count myself a part of.

It's the same reason why I've taken a certain dislike to the "scene".

Aoifums

MYOB wrote: »

1: "The Pride curse" ensures that nearly nobody succesfully hooks up with anyone :P
2: Theres nobody "prancing around [the] street shifting", you might want to go to one before you make assumptions. Dublin != New Orleans.

There's a Pride curse??? :eek:
That sounded so piratey in my head

L1011

Aoifums wrote: »

There's a Pride curse??? :eek:
That sounded so piratey in my head

Yaarrr!



Effectively, unless you go out with your significant other, you're not getting yer hole on Pride day. Never happens.

Dr. Baltar - I think you've got the wrong idea of the Dublin parade also. Last two have been themed on marriage inequality, you've also got groups like the LGB teachers ones protesting about the religious exemption clauses in the equality act, etc, etc. Its not a "we're gay, lets occupy a street and get pissed" event.

spurious

Aoifums wrote: »

Quite a lot. As crayolastereo said, a lot of people in secondary schools don't know anyone who's gay. It's a stupid enclosed environment and a lot of people aren't even out to their friends.

But they DO know someone who's gay, they just don't know the person is gay.
Unless they are in a very small school I can guarantee at least one of their teachers is gay or lesbian.

That's why the more visibility the better, even if it's only one day a year on a march and some people don't like the 'swished up' gays.

Aoifums

Sorry, I should have said that they don't know anyone who's openly gay
Of course they have gay teachers and classmates. I should have 6 or so gay teachers and another 10 people in my year should be gay. I know two who are bi but no one is out en mass.

Increased visibility is always good, I can't even begin to imagine the crap teachers would get if they were out at work

Nebit

MYOB wrote: »

1: "The Pride curse" ensures that nearly nobody succesfully hooks up with anyone :P
2: Theres nobody "prancing around [the] street shifting", you might want to go to one before you make assumptions. Dublin != New Orleans.

i retract my statement until further notice so;)

Annasopra

Aoifums wrote: »

There's a Pride curse??? :eek:
That sounded so piratey in my head

No of course there isn't

Annasopra

Nebit wrote: »

Be honest the majority that go arnt there for a greater cause.

I disagree, many groups raise specific issues, such as marriage equality, hate crimes, employment equality - as well as that having a group of people who are proud of themselves and who can openly walk the streets and be themselves is a greater cause in itself

Reflector

Goodshape wrote: »

But there's a discernible difference

Patrick's Parade (fun for everyone with an "OIrish" theme) : http://images.google.ie/images?q=st+patrick's+parade

Gay Pride (probably NSFW) : http://images.google.ie/images?q=gay+pride


I don't think it's about discriminating against it... just a desire for this not to be seen as "what it means to be gay".

Well to be honest the binge drinking vomit and fighting on paddys day is not for everyone.
If people think that being gay is dressing in leather and feathers then fair enough but that is just their ignorance. In any case these activities are not restricted to gay people at all. I think it is your own issues with how you view yourself is the problem. Noone is asking you to dress up but you have the freedom to do so if you wish.

MicraBoy

Reflector wrote: »

Well to be honest the binge drinking vomit and fighting on paddys day is not for everyone.
If people think that being gay is dressing in leather and feathers then fair enough but that is just their ignorance. In any case these activities are not restricted to gay people at all. I think it is your own issues with how you view yourself is the problem. Noone is asking you to dress up but you have the freedom to do so if you wish.

Agreed. If one was to use the same argument to claim all Irish people are drunk, ginger haired, over-sized hat wearing leprechans based on the parade they hold to mark their national day, then I would describe that argument as pretty weak.

Nebit

Johnnymcg wrote: »

as well as that having a group of people who are proud of themselves and who can openly walk the streets and be themselves is a greater cause in itself

<<< Does this not single us out as abnormalities though

Annasopra

Nebit wrote: »

<<< Does this not single us out as abnormalities though

Firstly - You seem to think that everyone who takes part in a pride parade is a stereotype - ie camp, drag queen, flamboyant, shirtless etc - this isn't the case - there are LOTS and LOTS of "normal" or "straight acting" or "non flamboyant" people who take part in pride marches, look beyond the stereotypes, beyond the media images, look inside the parade - they are all there. There is huge diversity.

Secondly - No-one ever said being gay was normal at all, so we are all already "abnormalities" - A lot of LGBTQ people want to be anything but "normal", On the other hand a lot of people do want to assimilate into a heterocentric world

Thirdly - A lot of people have grown feeling that they cannot be open and express themselves, hate crimes mean mean that for example you will rarely see same sex couples holding hands together in Irish City Centres, pride is about the opposite of that - rejecting all those negative feelings and being proud of yourself - no matter what society thinks or says

Goodshape

Reflector wrote: »

Well to be honest the binge drinking vomit and fighting on paddys day is not for everyone.

True.

I guess the Paddys Day analogy is a good enough one. The celebrations on Patrick's day are about as Irish as the Pride Parade is Gay... i.e. fairly accentuated stereotypes.

And it's a parade... a bit of fun and a show for/by the community... not intended to be representational of the whole.

Just a shame that the Pride Parade is seen that way by some. You, me and people reading this form know it isn't... but my mother and father wouldn't have been so sure.

Nebit

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Firstly - You seem to think that everyone who takes part in a pride parade is a stereotype - ie camp, drag queen, flamboyant, shirtless etc - this isn't the case - there are LOTS and LOTS of "normal" or "straight acting" or "non flamboyant" people who take part in pride marches, look beyond the stereotypes, beyond the media images, look inside the parade - they are all there. There is huge diversity.

Secondly - No-one ever said being gay was normal at all, so we are all already "abnormalities" - A lot of LGBTQ people want to be anything but "normal", On the other hand a lot of people do want to assimilate into a heterocentric world

Thirdly - A lot of people have grown feeling that they cannot be open and express themselves, hate crimes mean mean that for example you will rarely see same sex couples holding hands together in Irish City Centres, pride is about the opposite of that - rejecting all those negative feelings and being proud of yourself - no matter what society thinks or says

I do not really associate pride parades with just stereotypes, this was NEVER the case, however i do think it an excuse to get drunk and to shift the nearest person. Maybe this is just the younger LGBT. It was already pointed out this isnt the case but everyone i know and my friends know seem to use it as an excuse to get with someone.
This seems to reassure the stereotype that LGBT peoples r promiscuous.
on top of that the 'Flamboyant' gays get media coverage again reassuring another stereotype.
I KNOW this is not all the people that attend said parades but honestly i feel like none of the issues are addressed even if it has a so called theme to it.
Your third point however i accept fully and agree that it is a plus.

I just find the whole idea of the parade, which was meant to fight for our right to be accepted as part of the community, is self defeating as it singles gay people out.

Dublin_Gunner

I have no problem with the Pride Parade per se.

My missus and her twin (who's a lesbian looking to get married) go in it every year.

However, I think the consensus of the parade should change. Leave it be as what it is, a celebration of sexual freedom and the right to be gay (as much as is currently allowed by our archaic laws anyway).

If gay people want to have a public outcry to gain equal rights, march to the dail properly and give them hell about it, gain public support.

I've never found people prancing around dancing and having a great time to have much political influence!

Annasopra

Nebit wrote: »

I just find the whole idea of the parade, which was meant to fight for our right to be accepted as part of the community, is self defeating as it singles gay people out.

I don't really agree that pride is about our right to be accepted as part of the community, for some people it is the complete opposite, it is about asserting our rights to be different, to identify as not belonging to a heterosexist society and being able to be themselves even if that is singling people out

MicraBoy

Nebit wrote: »

I do not really associate pride parades with just stereotypes, this was NEVER the case, however i do think it an excuse to get drunk and to shift the nearest person. Maybe this is just the younger LGBT. It was already pointed out this isnt the case but everyone i know and my friends know seem to use it as an excuse to get with someone.

I can see the headlines now: SHOCK as horny teenagers find any old excuse to get off with each other!

It has been pointed out already that this is not the case at the parade for the vast majority of attendees.

Nebit wrote: »

I just find the whole idea of the parade, which was meant to fight for our right to be accepted as part of the community, is self defeating as it singles gay people out.

We are lucky enough to live in a country where it isn't a fight, it has been able to morph into a celebration of diversity. The political stuff comes after the parade with the speeches. Then comes the parties, where all the stuff you are talking about happens :P

Tricity Bendix

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I don't really agree that pride is about our right to be accepted as part of the community, for some people it is the complete opposite, it is about asserting our rights to be different, to identify as not belonging to a heterosexist society and being able to be themselves even if that is singling people out

Which is why so many breeders have a "get over yerselves" attitude to pride.

Goodshape

Johnnymcg wrote: »

for some people it is the complete opposite, it is about asserting our rights to be different, to identify as not belonging to a heterosexist society

So it's about "YEAH! We're REALLY REALLY different!! Now treat us the same!!" ?

Jesus.

I really am in two minds about this. A celebration of sexual diversity is fine. Being different is absolutely fine. The implication that being gay makes me somehow *different* by default, in any meaningful way, to the rest of my peers in society is not okay.

I have a private life just like everyone else does. I fall in love and have sex with other adults, just like everyone else does. I don't parade my sexual fetishes around the street, and neither does anyone else I know.

Annasopra

Goodshape wrote: »

So it's about "YEAH! We're REALLY REALLY different!! Now treat us the same!!" ?

Jesus.

I really am in two minds about this. A celebration of sexual diversity is fine. Being different is absolutely fine. The implication that being gay makes me somehow *different* by default, in any meaningful way, to the rest of my peers in society is not okay.

I have a private life just like everyone else does. I fall in love and have sex with other adults, just like everyone else does. I don't parade my sexual fetishes around the street, and neither does anyone else I know.

Pride itself cannot really be pigeonholed into one definition of what it is really about because of the diversity of people and their opinions, views, hopes, aspirations, outlooks, culture, desired culture

Some people like yourself just want to fit in with society the way it is

Some people want to totally reject heterosexism because they see it as stifling, limiting and as a culutural construct that they do not want to be part of. Take the whole marriage thing - there used to be a lot more overt lesbian feminism that rejected marriage as a heteropatriarchial institution and wanted to abolish the institution altogether - You don't hear that much nowadays because some of those women are now involved in Marriage Equality and there is a huge move towards "assimilation" where people very much want to be equal, be the same, have 2.4 children and settle down

As I've said before the majority of people within pride parades are not parading "sexual fetishes around the street"

ding-dong

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Pride itself cannot really be pigeonholed into one definition of what it is really about because of the diversity of people and their opinions, views, hopes, aspirations, outlooks, culture, desired culture

Some people like yourself just want to fit in with society the way it is

Some people want to totally reject heterosexism because they see it as stifling, limiting and as a culutural construct that they do not want to be part of. Take the whole marriage thing - there used to be a lot more overt lesbian feminism that rejected marriage as a heteropatriarchial institution and wanted to abolish the institution altogether - You don't hear that much nowadays because some of those women are now involved in Marriage Equality and there is a huge move towards "assimilation" where people very much want to be equal, be the same, have 2.4 children and settle down

As I've said before the majority of people within pride parades are not parading "sexual fetishes around the street"

And I guess this goes back to Boston's point about gay pride parades representing fringes. Unfortunately it is seen by many outsiders as representing all of us, not just sexual revolutionaries like yourself. I think it's a bit insulting to insinuate that some of us are just trying to "fit in" with oh-so-boring heterosexual society. I'm just myself and yeah, I happily live the sort of life that you probably consider boring.

BanzaiBk

Seems like I'm in the minority but I really enjoy pride. It's the one time of the year where bitchy-ness of the scene dissipates for an hour and we finally act like a unified community - be it the happily flamboyant or the righteously angered.

spurious

Goodshape wrote: »

So it's about "YEAH! We're REALLY REALLY different!! Now treat us the same!!" ?

I'm not really different, but I AM here.

Goodshape

spurious wrote: »

I'm not really different, but I AM here.

I get that actually. Makes perfect sense.

Feel like I'd forgotten about the need to simply be *visible*... even if they do think we're all totally mad . False perceptions can be corrected. Total ignorance is harder to get around.

Can't argue with it.

Annasopra

ding-dong wrote: »

And I guess this goes back to Boston's point about gay pride parades representing fringes. Unfortunately it is seen by many outsiders as representing all of us, not just sexual revolutionaries like yourself. I think it's a bit insulting to insinuate that some of us are just trying to "fit in" with oh-so-boring heterosexual society. I'm just myself and yeah, I happily live the sort of life that you probably consider boring.

Whoa there, I ain't no Peter Tatchell and I ain't no Panti, I was explaining the viewpoints of many others - I never expressed my own personal opinion or viewpoint and suddenly I'm a 'sexual revolutionary' that thinks everyone else is 'boring'. In fact I would probably aspire to something similar to your lifestyle and wouldn't consider it boring at all -

I'm not a crusading sexual revolutionary, I'm a very uncamp ordinary gay man who believes in equal rights and not the hardline stuff that we have all to totally reject everything to do with heterosexuality

My point was that there is diversity; of opinions, of degrees of campness, of politics, of everything. I respect that and I believe Pride is about celebrating that. I don't believe that pride only represents small minorities and fringes, for me it represents diversity and some people especially the media choose to emphasise the flamboyancy and the drag queens, however when you look inside the parade there is way more

nice1franko

Remember in the Simpsons they had a Gay Pride Parade?

Male Marchers: We're here, we're queer, get used to it!

Lisa: You do this every year -we are used to it!