Irish language?

I.Am.A.Panda · 04-04-2010 08:08PM

I remember my Irish grinds teacher flipping on yesterday during our grind. She had asked me to photocopy my poems, but I had never seen them, and had only been given a page worth of notes on each one. She started with "Oh, I hate teachers who just give you notes and don't go over the poem...". After about 10 minutes of explaining the situation and what not she said "Y'know what, I hate to go against teachers but we're *desperation laugh* going to this differently". With a smile she went through a poem and I suddenly realised how much I hate my teacher, especially in light of this.

Naikon · 04-04-2010 08:34PM

I don't know even one person that can fluently speak Irish. It's a minority tongue for sure.

Iwasfrozen · 04-04-2010 08:43PM

Naikon wrote: »

I don't know even one person that can fluently speak Irish. It's a minority tongue for sure.

I don't know any Chinese, they are a minority race for sure.

Wibbs · 04-04-2010 09:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know any Chinese, they are a minority race for sure.

Yea but you would figure Mandarin was a minority tongue if walking around China you only ever heard French and only saw mandarin on street signs.

I.Am.A.Panda · 04-04-2010 09:30PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yea but you would figure Mandarin was a minority tongue if walking around China you only ever heard French and only saw mandarin on street signs.

10/10

conor.hogan.2 · 05-04-2010 11:48PM

lugha wrote: »

Fine with 1. , if you don't insist that others use it. But if you support it being a compulsory school subject, that's what you are doing.

school, look up the concept and get back to me. see below, on how no one wants to learn anything in school.

So your argument can be applied to all subjects - and no the are not all useful and not more useful or less useful than irish.

conor.hogan.2 · 05-04-2010 11:52PM

owenc wrote: »

Being forced to learn Irish would make you not want to learn it..

And let's face it irish is friggen useless!

It's like my mum she's trying to force her religion down my throat and I hate it and you know what I just ignore because I hate it my churchbis the most boring service ever!!

When I grow up I will NOT be attenting

1 - i didnt want to do maths or english or french ..... nor do the majority of students.

2 - eh no it's not.

3 - if that is your only reason for not wanting to go to church, you need to read more.

4 - when you grow up, you will have a decent grasp on things. (you are probaly not much younger than me this is not a age thing, it is a cop on thing)
on the church thing i dont give a tit what you do.

dsmythy · 06-04-2010 12:46AM

Have to say, I'm surprised at the poll results at present. Encouraging for the future.

Intothesea · 06-04-2010 01:03AM

owenc wrote: »

Not everyone is obsesssed with their culture were not Americans here!

Ah I see, grasshoppah. Caring about your culture and wishing to safeguard the most important elements for future generations = American-style obsession with twice-irrelevant cultural details. Good work :pac:

lugha · 06-04-2010 10:45AM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

school, look up the concept and get back to me. see below, on how no one wants to learn anything in school.

So your argument can be applied to all subjects - and no the are not all useful and not more useful or less useful than irish.

Ok, here's a suggestion. Let's make Swahili compulsory in school. Then wouldn't your arguments for retaining the compulsion on Irish be just as compelling for retaining the argument on Swahili?
There is a disingenuous argument being made here by the pro Irish lobby that there is an educational impediment to impose Irish on school children. There isn't. It is being done for cultural / nationalist reasons and it is simple dishonest to pretend otherwise.

And it is most certainly not true that "no one wants to learn anything in school"

lugha · 06-04-2010 10:50AM

dsmythy wrote: »

Have to say, I'm surprised at the poll results at present. Encouraging for the future.

Ah see, if there wasn't so much time spent teaching Irish in school, there would be a little more time for studying statistics and sampling, and then you would know that self selecting poll samples such as we have in AH are not reliable. :P

Krusader · 06-04-2010 11:07AM

lugha wrote: »

Ok, here's a suggestion. Let's make Swahili compulsory in school. Then wouldn't your arguments for retaining the compulsion on Irish be just as compelling for retaining the argument on Swahili?
There is a disingenuous argument being made here by the pro Irish lobby that there is an educational impediment to impose Irish on school children. There isn't. It is being done for cultural / nationalist reasons and it is simple dishonest to pretend otherwise.

And it is most certainly not true that "no one wants to learn anything in school"

Isn't history taught for cultural / nationalist reasons also

owenc · 06-04-2010 11:10AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Isn't history thought for cultural / nationalist reasons also

yea thats what i was thinking its only nationalists who care about this language etc.... thats why the catholic schools here are learning irish... because they are trying to inforce everything... in irish... sure they have all their signs in irish.. and i was in a town in county down.. and they had irish flags up and all this republican rubbish... like it said irelands best chippy or something... and to me thats a bit republican.. i drove through this unionist area aswell.. they had uk flags up.. tbh it was scary going through both of them!:eek: thank god im not from belfast...

Krusader · 06-04-2010 11:15AM

But it is their birth right and apart of their/our national identity, thats what they would argue and they would be right

owenc · 06-04-2010 11:41AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

But it is their birth right and apart of their/our national identity, thats what they would argue and they would be right

what ?? who are you talking too?

Dionysus · 06-04-2010 12:39PM

owenc wrote: »

yea thats what i was thinking its only nationalists who care about this language etc.... thats why the catholic schools here are learning irish... because they are trying to inforce everything... in irish... sure they have all their signs in irish.. and i was in a town in county down.. and they had irish flags up and all this republican rubbish... like it said irelands best chippy or something... and to me thats a bit republican..

Jesus wept.

owenc · 06-04-2010 12:43PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Jesus wept.

eh?

Dionysus · 06-04-2010 12:58PM

lugha wrote: »

Ok, here's a suggestion. Let's make Swahili compulsory in school. Then wouldn't your arguments for retaining the compulsion on Irish be just as compelling for retaining the argument on Swahili?
There is a disingenuous argument being made here by the pro Irish lobby that there is an educational impediment to impose Irish on school children. There isn't. It is being done for cultural / nationalist reasons and it is simple dishonest to pretend otherwise.

And it is most certainly not true that "no one wants to learn anything in school"

And there have been no cultural/nationalist reasons for teaching English in Irish schools for the past few centuries and right up to 2010? No cultural power dynamics going on there? (see earlier posts from somebody "hating" Irish because it reflected defeat and he sought to be on the side of the "winners", for an example of this mentality in the anti-Irish lobby today)

And are you really claiming that teaching geography, CSPE, economics and, well, every other subject on the curriculum does not reflect the cultural and nationalist preferences of a society? Every subject taught in every school reflects cultural values which are held by the dominant political and economic class. Learning your beloved English in school is also a reflection of the cultural value of the state.

If this state were near China, for instance, its education system would have a markedly different set of cultural and nationalist values across the subject curriculum to the ones which it currently holds.

lugha · 06-04-2010 01:26PM

Dionysus wrote: »

And there have been no cultural/nationalist reasons for teaching English in Irish schools for the past few centuries and right up to 2010? No cultural power dynamics going on there? (see earlier posts from somebody "hating" Irish because it reflected defeat and he sought to be on the side of the "winners", for an example of this mentality in the anti-Irish lobby today)

And are you really claiming that teaching geography, CSPE, economics and, well, every other subject on the curriculum does not reflect the cultural and nationalist preferences of a society? Every subject taught in every school reflects cultural values which are held by the dominant political and economic class. Learning your beloved English in school is also a reflection of the cultural value of the state.

If this state were near China, for instance, its education system would have a markedly different set of cultural and nationalist values across the subject curriculum to the ones which it currently holds.

Every other subject on the curriculum except Irish, English and maths can, up to a point, be freely chosen or not by students. There are IMO, educational arguments for having a compulsion to study English and maths. English is the language spoken in Ireland and it makes sense for practical reasons that communication skills be enhanced. Similarly with maths and numeracy / problem solving skills. If you disagree fine, although I think you will find that many employers routinely complain about precisely these deficits in their new recruits. The compulsion to study them is for practical educational reasons and not cultural ones. This is at the heart of the disingenuous argument being made. I.e. if maths and English is compulsory, why not Irish? If you think maths and English should not be compulsory, fine, but that it a different argument. That they are, does not add anything to the case for retaining Irish as a compulsory subject.

Dionysus · 06-04-2010 01:47PM

lugha wrote: »

There are IMO, educational arguments for having a compulsion to study English and maths....The compulsion to study them is for practical educational reasons and not cultural ones.

But there your underlying logic for teaching maths and English is not based on the reality of those subjects as they are taught in the curriculum. The English Leaving Cert syllabus, for instance, offers very little which is practical. It revolves around Shakespeare, Yeats, Austin and a myriad of other such people. Leaving Cert English is clearly a luxury, not a necessity. The vast majority of people have no need for it after they finish their Leaving Cert exam. In contrast, the vast majority of people also know how to read and write well before they are forced to take Leaving Certificate English. That is, practical English has been acquired long before this time. A student's English can improve through studying a more relevant subject (for them) in English. That is an infinitely more practical way to improve one's English than learning poetry.

Similarly with mathematics. The aspect of maths which is practical to everybody is calculations. The vast majority of people know how to add, subtract etc. long before they are forced to take maths for the Leaving Cert. The sort of maths they have to master there - trigonometry, quadratic equations, calculus etc. - has little if any practical relevancy to the vast majority of people once they finish their Leaving Cert. They, too, are luxuries not practical necessities for the overwhelming majority of people who leave school.

lugha · 06-04-2010 02:27PM

Dionysus wrote: »

But there your underlying logic for teaching maths and English is not based on the reality of those subjects as they are taught in the curriculum. The English Leaving Cert syllabus, for instance, offers very little which is practical. It revolves around Shakespeare, Yeats, Austin and a myriad of other such people. Leaving Cert English is clearly a luxury, not a necessity. The vast majority of people have no need for it after they finish their Leaving Cert exam. In contrast, the vast majority of people also know how to read and write well before they are forced to take Leaving Certificate English. That is, practical English has been acquired long before this time. A student's English can improve through studying a more relevant subject (for them) in English. That is an infinitely more practical way to improve one's English than learning poetry.

Similarly with mathematics. The aspect of maths which is practical to everybody is calculations. The vast majority of people know how to add, subtract etc. long before they are forced to take maths for the Leaving Cert. The sort of maths they have to master there - trigonometry, quadratic equations, calculus etc. - has little if any practical relevancy to the vast majority of people once they finish their Leaving Cert. They, too, are luxuries not practical necessities for the overwhelming majority of people who leave school.

Fine, you are making arguments why English and maths as they are currently delivered do not warrant being compulsory. I wouldn’t agree, although I accept they could probably be improved. But that’s a different debate. Whether they are or are not had nothing to do with the argument for making Irish compulsory.

I.Am.A.Panda · 06-04-2010 06:02PM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

school, look up the concept and get back to me. see below, on how no one wants to learn anything in school.

Right, and they can happily leave following the junior cert.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

So your argument can be applied to all subjects - and no the are not all useful and not more useful or less useful than irish.

Right, so at senior cycle you would agree all subjects should be optional and chosen at the discretion of the student?

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

1 - i didnt want to do maths or english or french ..... nor do the majority of students.

And I agree with your right to not do those subjects at senior cycle shoudl you choose not to do them.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

3 - if that is your only reason for not wanting to go to church, you need to read more.

4 - when you grow up, you will have a decent grasp on things. (you are probaly not much younger than me this is not a age thing, it is a cop on thing)

You're saying religion is a cop-on thing? I know this thread isn't the place for it, but religion is a topic that needs to be debated. It isn't just "None of this nonsense now you're a Catholic!"

dlofnep · 06-04-2010 06:24PM

owenc wrote: »

yea thats what i was thinking its only nationalists who care about this language etc....

No, it's not. And it shouldn't be made political. The Irish language belongs to all of the people of Ireland. Some of the greatest champions of the Irish language in the past have been from protestant, middle-class backgrounds.

owenc wrote: »

thats why the catholic schools here are learning irish... because they are trying to inforce everything... in irish...

No, they are not. Not all catholic schools offer Irish. The ones that do are attempting to give people a chance to learn the language.

owenc wrote: »

sure they have all their signs in irish.. and i was in a town in county down.. and they had irish flags up and all this republican rubbish...

So what if their signs are in Irish? And who cares if the fly an Irish flag in Ireland?

owenc · 06-04-2010 06:40PM

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not. And it shouldn't be made political. The Irish language belongs to all of the people of Ireland. Some of the greatest champions of the Irish language in the past have been from protestant, middle-class backgrounds.

No, they are not. Not all catholic schools offer Irish. The ones that do are attempting to give people a chance to learn the language.

So what if their signs are in Irish? And who cares if the fly an Irish flag in Ireland?

in northern ireland it is seen to be republican to fly irsh flags... and write everything in irish.... people down south would want to learn it for the culture but here they are just learning it to be republican.... ugh its hard to explain if you arnt from here you wont get it.

dlofnep · 06-04-2010 06:45PM

owenc wrote: »

in northern ireland it is seen to be republican to fly irsh flags... and write everything in irish.... people down south would want to learn it for the culture but here they are just learning it to be republican.... ugh its hard to explain if you arnt from here you wont get it.

I am from here.

I've spent alot of time in Belfast - and have campaigned on behalf of Irish language rights there. I've taken part in multiple marches on behalf of Acht na Gaeilge. I don't dispute that Republicans take up the language - but that is because their culture, and language was supressed by the British establishment - and seek ways of preserving their culture.

lugha · 06-04-2010 06:54PM

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not. And it shouldn't be made political. The Irish language belongs to all of the people of Ireland. Some of the greatest champions of the Irish language in the past have been from protestant, middle-class backgrounds.

Not only protestant, but unionists also. The Irish language does not belong exclusively to nationalists / republicans. It is part of unionists heritage as well but they largely tend to shy away from it and indeed are downright hostile to it because it has been politicized and "taken" by republicans. I recall hearing Ken McGuinness concede as much years ago.

dlofnep · 06-04-2010 06:57PM

lugha wrote: »

Not only protestant, but unionists also. The Irish language does not belong exclusively to nationalists / republicans. It is part of unionists heritage as well but they largely tend to shy away from it and indeed are downright hostile to it because it has been politicized and "taken" by republicans. I recall hearing Ken McGuinness concede as much years ago.

The unionists have as much to blame for it becoming politicized as, the UUP and DUP have consistently opposed any Irish language legislation. They are against the Irish language - and have routinely made desparaging remarks towards the language and it's speakers.

You cannot place the blame on Republicans solely for this, and many Republicans have actively attempted to brign Unionists in on the language in cross-community projects.

eyeforaneye · 11-05-2015 04:41PM

Where do they get these Irish makey-up words. I saw on Met Eireann web site : Satailiti for I guess Satellite.

('Sat- a- light' translation would make more sense i.e. Sigh-a-solas for example??)

These types of 'Satailiti' words bring the whole language into disrupt!

Lord PuppyMcSnuggle of Cuddleshire · 11-05-2015 04:53PM

dr gonzo wrote: »

On top of that its rich of me to say its important when I dont even speak it

It's fairly typical. And people complain about Americans being "plastic paddies", we're the greatest nation of plastic paddies ourselves.
"I don't want to speak it myself, but I think someone else should be forced to... because it'd make me feel good."

4zn76tysfajdxp · 11-05-2015 04:56PM

eyeforaneye wrote: »

Where do they get these Irish makey-up words. I saw on Met Eireann web site : Satailiti for I guess Satellite.

('Sat- a- light' translation would make more sense i.e. Sigh-a-solas for example??)

These types of 'Satailiti' words bring the whole language into disrupt!

Apparently it's "satellite" or a slight variation of it in about 20 different languages, so Irish isn't unique in that respect.

Irish language?

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