An unarmed force?

FGR · 02-04-2010 12:55AM

I believe Nice Guy Always was referring to the fact that, in the UK, you see many uniformed Police Officers carrying routine firearms in sensitive locations. These uniforms are not differing in any way to those worn by beat Officers.

RSU here, on the otherhand, are seen as a specialised unit whose uniform is nothing at all like the one seen on beat Gardaí.

gilly0512 · 02-04-2010 04:42AM

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I believe Nice Guy Always was referring to the fact that, in the UK, you see many uniformed Police Officers carrying routine firearms in sensitive locations. These uniforms are not differing in any way to those worn by beat Officers.

RSU here, on the otherhand, are seen as a specialised unit whose uniform is nothing at all like the one seen on beat Gardaí.

So what you saying is that say the armed Police that you regularly see in say Heathrow Airport are just regular officers, with the only difference in their uniform been that they wear baseball caps?

Locust · 02-04-2010 08:54AM

gilly2308 wrote: »

So what you saying is that say the armed Police that you regularly see in say Heathrow Airport are just regular officers, with the only difference in their uniform been that they wear baseball caps?

I usually see them wearing normal beat uniform and traditional cap patrolling say the airports or near parliament etc carrying submachine guns or long rifles.
These officers that carry firearms are obviously firearms trained and thats there job. Firearms are specialised i suppose. I think the point was that these officers uniform is very similar.

RSU drive around wearing very similar outfit to uniform gardai. fleece and stab vest, the look very alike at topaz etc... ha. the gear they change into may be different though. But again RSU/ARV would have multiple roles again rather that just armed patrol.

As for firearms and public order - simply put - firearms have no place in public order incidents. Thats why you generally never see armed units getting involved in such.
The days of point arms at crowds in Ireland are over i hope! Other Police Services around the world can manage so can we. Although if i was armed and someone is serious enough to try & grab my weapon in a confrontation and i was in uniform I'd break a finger simple as.

Hagar · 02-04-2010 09:13AM

nice guy always wrote: »

Here begings the problem.......a firearm has no part to play in a public order incident.

O/C spray, Tazer and ASPs do. The use of lethal force would not be justified in a serious assault in my opinion.

Aren't O/C sprays and dart projecting Tazers legally classed as firearms?

Personally I think Irish society has gone beyond just recruiting big tall men as Gardaí. The thugs walking our streets nowadays have no qualms about using weapons to do serious harm to people or even snuff out innocent lives. At what point does a serious assault stop being "just" a serious assault and start being a murder in progress?

As another poster has pointed out, in Continental Europe the arrival of armed police usually quells situations immediately without the need for those weapons to be drawn. Lethal force does not have to be used, it's very presence is enough in the majority of cases.

02-04-2010 11:23AM

1st wrote: »

Aren't O/C sprays and dart projecting Tazers legally classed as firearms?

They fall into the firearms and offensive weapons act.

Hagar · 02-04-2010 03:04PM

foreign wrote: »

They fall into the firearms and offensive weapons act.

That statement attempts to gloss over the issue somewhat.
They are firearms in the eyes of the law no ifs ands buts or maybes.
Our so called unarmed Gardaí carry firearms if they carry sprays or tasers.

sdanseo · 02-04-2010 10:01PM

1st wrote: »

That statement attempts to gloss over the issue somewhat.
They are firearms in the eyes of the law no ifs ands buts or maybes.
Our so called unarmed Gardaí carry firearms if they carry sprays or tasers.

Technically yes, but the colloquial term "armed" still means to carry a gun in popular culture. If a Garda with OC was to scream at a suspect that he was armed and be met with a gun as a result, yet only had spray himself, what use would that be? :rolleyes:

By arming Gardaí I reckon it may up the stakes a little, but only with the hardened criminals. There are a select few criminals prepared to use lethal force on Gardaí and they are already dealt with by armed members. By arming rank and file, you may certainly open them up to the 0.1% population that would shoot at them, but you protect more people and more importantly themselves against the same threat. Ask Paul Sherlock for example if a Gun would have saved him being shot, I reckon the answer could be yes. In fact, if the criminals knew all Gardaí were armed, they probably wouldn't have produced a shotgun in the first place for fear of being shot.

Let's not kid ourselves - most or all people prepared to pull a gun or knife on anyone deserves whatever they get. But the fundamental difference between Gardaí and US cops seems to be a higher value placed on ALL human life - even if the particular organism in question is pointing a gun at you. Gardaí are not, and never will be trigger happy. It's not in our culture as Irish people (for clarity, I am not a Garda). The US culture is completely different and it's pointless to compare them.

MagicSean · 02-04-2010 11:31PM

sdonn wrote: »

Technically yes, but the colloquial term "armed" still means to carry a gun in popular culture. If a Garda with OC was to scream at a suspect that he was armed and be met with a gun as a result, yet only had spray himself, what use would that be? :rolleyes:

By arming Gardaí I reckon it may up the stakes a little, but only with the hardened criminals. There are a select few criminals prepared to use lethal force on Gardaí and they are already dealt with by armed members. By arming rank and file, you may certainly open them up to the 0.1% population that would shoot at them, but you protect more people and more importantly themselves against the same threat. Ask Paul Sherlock for example if a Gun would have saved him being shot, I reckon the answer could be yes. In fact, if the criminals knew all Gardaí were armed, they probably wouldn't have produced a shotgun in the first place for fear of being shot.

Let's not kid ourselves - most or all people prepared to pull a gun or knife on anyone deserves whatever they get. But the fundamental difference between Gardaí and US cops seems to be a higher value placed on ALL human life - even if the particular organism in question is pointing a gun at you. Gardaí are not, and never will be trigger happy. It's not in our culture as Irish people (for clarity, I am not a Garda). The US culture is completely different and it's pointless to compare them.

People who fire at Gardaí generally don't care if they are armed or not.

03-04-2010 09:04AM

sdonn wrote: »

Ask Paul Sherlock for example if a Gun would have saved him being shot, I reckon the answer could be yes. In fact, if the criminals knew all Gardaí were armed, they probably wouldn't have produced a shotgun in the first place for fear of being shot.

He was ambushed. How would having a gun stopped that? And police officers in countries that are armed get shot too. So that arguement does not stand up.

sdanseo · 03-04-2010 02:48PM

foreign wrote: »

He was ambushed. How would having a gun stopped that? And police officers in countries that are armed get shot too. So that arguement does not stand up.

From my reading of this forum and the various reports, it seemed that he tried to pull the car over, or pulled in behind it, and as he dismounted one of the suspects got out of the car, aimed, and fired at him. My point is that they either wouldn't have done that if they knew he was armed, or that he would have had time to draw a weapon himself.

You're in the job, you know more than I do about it - I'm simply perusing and using it as an example. Would that have been the case from what you've heard?

04-04-2010 11:40AM

sdonn wrote: »

You're in the job, you know more than I do about it - I'm simply perusing and using it as an example. Would that have been the case from what you've heard?

I don't know anything more than what is in the media. And if I did, I'd be a fool to put it up here.

Locust · 05-04-2010 11:12AM

foreign wrote: »

He was ambushed. How would having a gun stopped that? And police officers in countries that are armed get shot too. So that arguement does not stand up.

Its the deterrent, put off and risk factor that the scum face.
Perhaps if Gardai were armed the scum that are prepared to do things like this would think twice, its pretty risky taking on armed cops, if there's the chance trained uniforms will shoot back aiming to kill?

Perhaps when it comes to stopping suspicious vehicles in the future if armed more caution/safety rules would be followed like other countries i.e. shouting - show me your hands and a bit of tactical awareness etc...

Anti-ambush drills and officer safety for vehicle stops are taught at a basic level in many police academy's all over the world.
But its all hypothetical i suppose shoulda coulda woulda... We're supposed to learn from incidents, be training etc... (with sincere respect) the Sherlock scenario could easily happen again, what would be different? At the minute not much i think, that happened in North Inner City. What i'm saying is I think a firearm could well have made a difference and its a valid argument. My 2c.

DubMedic · 05-04-2010 04:10PM

Locust wrote: »

Its the deterrent, put off and risk factor that the scum face.
Perhaps if Gardai were armed the scum that are prepared to do things like this would think twice, its pretty risky taking on armed cops, if there's the chance trained uniforms will shoot back aiming to kill?

Perhaps when it comes to stopping suspicious vehicles in the future if armed more caution/safety rules would be followed like other countries i.e. shouting - show me your hands and a bit of tactical awareness etc...

Anti-ambush drills and officer safety for vehicle stops are taught at a basic level in many police academy's all over the world.
But its all hypothetical i suppose shoulda coulda woulda... We're supposed to learn from incidents, be training etc... (with sincere respect) the Sherlock scenario could easily happen again, what would be different? At the minute not much i think, that happened in North Inner City. What i'm saying is I think a firearm could well have made a difference and its a valid argument. My 2c.

It's a 'could have' argument, really.

Many people panic when confronted with a firearm.

I wouldn't mind Gardaí being armed, but I think if it were to happen it needs to be a gradual process.
Roll out the RSU nationally,and arm a designated car in a district alongside the RSU.

'Scumbag' crime is widespread, but I think arming Gardaí is only the way to go, as a last resort, after other avenues have been attempted and exhausted.

What can be done.

Engaging the local communities, and showing them that the Gardaí are there to help.
Show them that Gardaí are just like any others, but have a job to do.
Show the kids that it's ok to be on the correct side of the law, your friends won't think any different of you.
Show the community the damaging effects of crime, and it's economic effect.
Show them that if crime were not a widespread problem in their community, then money spent on additional policing for said community, could be better spent on new resources.
Playgrounds, new community centres, things to do after school.
Get the youth involved in education schemes so that they do not have to resort to a life of crime.
This is just throwing basic ideas out there, brainstorming if you will.

Many areas have been ruined because of the infestation of crime, but it can be stopped at it's source. Granted, it would take a while, but it would ensure that we can continue to have a mostly unarmed police force, and continue with this tradition. Now, we all know a perfect society is almost impossible, but with a little belief, crime levels can be reduced.

Let's think about the source, rather than an immediate action, just because it sounds easy.

Arming the Gardaí is an immediate action, it will not completely stop the flow of crime from it's source.

My $0.02.

AnalFistyCuffs · 05-04-2010 06:23PM

Have to agree with Nice Guy regarding uniform upgrade,.....across the board they should drop the tie and go with US / London Met (summer dress) style open-neck shirt.

All uniform members issued with an X-26. ASP's belonging to LEO's have been used against them. Every city / large town station to have one ARV as part of their fleet. The volunteer crew (aged 30-40 yrs old) armed with SigP226 & trained to RSU s.o.p. level, ERU / RSU members respond to take over at esculated incident.

There are many GS members who will walk if the entire force is to be armed. It has taken too long for body armour to be standard issue, and that is contracted in from Germany (an Irish company with IDA backing should be doing it :mad:),...so firearms for the force is a long way off.

My €2.12c worth (Gov't Levy / NAMA charges!)

Zambia · 05-04-2010 10:53PM

AnalFistyCuffs wrote: »

Have to agree with Nice Guy regarding uniform upgrade,.....across the board they should drop the tie and go with US / London Met (summer dress) style open-neck shirt.

I agree a tie is no longer prudent, it never was.

AnalFistyCuffs wrote: »

There are many GS members who will walk if the entire force is to be armed.

Really with respect I see no evidence of that. I am open to correction but every AGS member in the past during these debates haves said if the decision is made they will do as requested.

sdanseo · 06-04-2010 01:52AM

Zambia232 wrote: »

I agree a tie is no longer prudent, it never was.

I reckon in as much as the unarmed nature of AGS demands respect, so does good appearance and that to my eye includes the tie. I think they look scruffy without it in the met, say whatever about practicality.

pah · 06-04-2010 05:39AM

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-calls-for-rethink-on-arming-gardai-after-pub-brawl-2126283.html

This is going to happen more and more methinks:(

Zambia · 06-04-2010 06:00AM

sdonn wrote: »

I reckon in as much as the unarmed nature of AGS demands respect, so does good appearance and that to my eye includes the tie. I think they look scruffy without it in the met, say whatever about practicality.

Anyone in favour of a side topic on this?

pah · 06-04-2010 12:26PM

Zambia232 wrote: »

Anyone in favour of a side topic on this?

Yes. from my side I say lose the tie. It's a pain in the neck

pah · 06-04-2010 01:44PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper-spray_projectile

How about something like this in all district cars?

Locust · 06-04-2010 02:10PM

pah wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper-spray_projectile

How about something like this in all district cars?

Fun idea, i think its being considered for the public order unit... i.e. picking out trouble makers in a crowd - but definitely not for engaging an armed suspect, or being a substitute for any lethal weapon. Truthfully baton rounds are just as effective just not as ethical.
The main issue with the OC paintball is that your suspect, when hit, is not completely incapacitated and can still discharge a firearm or swing a knife after being hit with OC or PAVA.

Going off topic a bit but i think it should be mandatory for each car to have at least one good length shield for public order/domestic incidents (thinking of knives etc...) would be very useful.

Zambia · 06-04-2010 11:20PM

Locust wrote: »

Going off topic a bit but i think it should be mandatory for each car to have at least one good length shield for public order/domestic incidents (thinking of knives etc...) would be very useful.

It would be handy but lets be honest if you needed it chances are you are never gonna be near the car. Plus if you can walk back to the car you cant simply step away and call for an armed unit to "correct" the imbalance of force..

DazMarz · 08-04-2010 04:06AM

As someone who one day hopes to join the Gardaí, I do not know whether I would want to be armed (unless I was a detective or something; I'm not 100% sure if all detectives are automatically armed or not).

In some cases, it would be a brilliant deterrant. In others, it could exaccerbate a situation beyond control and if the responding Gardaí did not have guns it may not have escalated.

The theory that criminals are more likely to arm themselves if the Gardaí were all armed is one that I do not give much credit to anymore in this day and age; it seems that every criminal out there from the lowest down-at-heel dealer to the higher up 'blaggers' is armed with some form of firearm. Maybe I'm reading too much of the hysterical crime press and their histrionic reports, but when a carbomb can be put onto a car in your neighbouring town.... and this town only has a population of just over 3,000 people... you tend to feel it has now escalated in this country to beyond control.

I don't think that the Gardaí being armed would necessarily be a 'bad' thing. Like everything, it will always have its pros and cons.

Personally, if I knew I was en route to a domestic disturbance call, I would prefer to be unarmed. If I knew I was en route to confronting armed robbers or drug dealers, I would like to know I could hold my own if they produced guns. Naive in the extreme (I'm only an untrained civilian!) perhaps, but that would be my feeling on it!

An unarmed force?

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