An unarmed force?

air assault

I just want to get peoples opinion on whether or not the Gardai should still be an unarmed force in modern Ireland

Hooch

air assault wrote: »

I just want to get peoples opinion on whether or not the Gardai should still be an unarmed force in modern Ireland

We are an unarmed Service;)

No Gardaí should not be armed. More RSUs on the ground. "Some" members given tazer like district patrol car drivers. Ordinary everyday beat members sshould no be armed.

Rowley Birkin QC

I honestly think the day has come for the cops on the beat to be armed. There was an incident in my home town lately where a ruckus kicked off between two groups. Basically the guards arrived on the scene and were unable to prevent the serious assaulting of an individual.

I lived in Holland lately and to be honest the sight of a cop showing up to a spot of bother with one hand on the holster tended to calm things down a lot.

I know the argument is that if the cops get tooled up then the criminals follow suit but are the criminals not already at that point?

Hooch

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

I honestly think the day has come for the cops on the beat to be armed. There was an incident in my home town lately where a ruckus kicked off between two groups. Basically the guards arrived on the scene and were unable to prevent the serious assaulting of an individual

Here begings the problem.......a firearm has no part to play in a public order incident.

O/C spray, Tazer and ASPs do. The use of lethal force would not be justified in a serious assault in my opinion.

air assault

i personally believe that the guards dont need to be armed but io do believe the regional response units should be armed 24/7

Theta

I dont think they should be armed. Maybe they should have access to "less lethal" (isnt that what they are calling them) devices like tasers.

Rowley Birkin QC

nice guy always wrote: »

Here begings the problem.......a firearm has no part to play in a public order incident.

O/C spray, Tazer and ASPs do. The use of lethal force would not be justified in a serious assault in my opinion.

But is the threat of lethal force far more useful then the actual use of lethal force?

Basically the incident I'm referring to involved two members of AGS waiting for about 7 minutes for support to arrive in numbers before getting involved in the row. Crucial time where an assault is concerned.

cushtac

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

But is the threat of lethal force far more useful then the actual use of lethal force?

Only if the threat is credible, otherwise it's empty.

The population would believe that Gardaí would pull firearms and use them in public order incidents, and they wouldn't stand for it either.

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

Basically the incident I'm referring to involved two members of AGS waiting for about 7 minutes for support to arrive in numbers before getting involved in the row. Crucial time where an assault is concerned.

If they had been armed, would you have expected them to shoot the people involved?

source

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

But is the threat of lethal force far more useful then the actual use of lethal force?

Basically the incident I'm referring to involved two members of AGS waiting for about 7 minutes for support to arrive in numbers before getting involved in the row. Crucial time where an assault is concerned.

If they were armed then they definitely would not go right into the middle of a large brawl, when Gardai go into the middle of a large fighting crowd, the tendency is that both factions will turn on their mutual enemy, in this case the Gardai, If they were to intervene, now you have two armed Gardai, heavily outnumbered in the middle of a large group of people who want to do harm to them. Not a smart place to be when carrying a gun.

Guns have no place in public order incidents.

Rowley Birkin QC

cushtac wrote: »

If they had been armed, would you have expected them to shoot the people involved?

I don't know, obviously there are rules of engagement but it was just incredibly frustrating to see those tasked with protecting the public basically rendered impotent to do anything until support in numbers arrived.

I can only imagine what it must have been like to be an innocent victim of the violence, see a squad car show up and still continue to be assaulted for a time.

It just seems that respect for the AGS is pretty low amongst your average scumbag and in public order situations like the one I saw it would be nice to see a better solution rather than waiting for the numbers to even up. Maybe guns are not the answer but something really needs to change.

Theta

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

It just seems that respect for the AGS is pretty low amongst your average scumbag and in public order situations like the one I saw it would be nice to see a better solution rather than waiting for the numbers to even up. Maybe guns are not the answer but something really needs to change.

I do agree with this. AGS does dont seem intimidating enough to the average scobie. English Police look far more like they mean business then AGS I think. Maybe its the tac vests over there stab vests and stuff like that makes it look like they mean business because they seem equipped to deal with it. Im not saying AGS aren't (I dont know) I just think they dont show it.

shakin

Theta wrote: »

I do agree with this. AGS does dont seem intimidating enough to the average scobie. English Police look far more like they mean business then AGS I think. Maybe its the tac vests over there stab vests and stuff like that makes it look like they mean business because they seem equipped to deal with it. Im not saying AGS aren't (I dont know) I just think they dont show it.

i would guess the distain by scobies here towards gardai is just as strong towards uk police,a tackleberry-style vest aint gonna change that, neither will a gun.

Sierra Oscar

nice guy always wrote: »

O/C spray, Tazer and ASPs do. The use of lethal force would not be justified in a serious assault in my opinion.

I myself would be more in favour of having more armed support groups, but just on that point - if an officer uses a firearm do they have to use it in a "lethal force" manner? Surely if it ever came to arming the ordinary beat officer they would be trained to incapacitate a suspect by aiming for the legs or the like, rather than aiming to kill?

cushtac

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I myself would be more in favour of having more armed support groups, but just on that point - if an officer uses a firearm do they have to use it in a "lethal force" manner? Surely if it ever came to arming the ordinary beat officer they would be trained to incapacitate a suspect by aiming for the legs or the like, rather than aiming to kill?

Television has a lot to answer for :rolleyes:

Pistols aren't the easiest of things to use effectively, they've got short barrels & as a result a short effective range. Add to that the fact that legs & arms are too small to be aimed for - they're narrow & generally moving most of the time. So you're trying to shoot a difficult weapon at a small target, all the while under intense pressure because you're in a dangerous situation and if you miss you're either going to give the other guy the chance to shoot you or you could hit a bystander.

That's why you aim for the biggest part of the target.

Rowley Birkin QC

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

I don't know, obviously there are rules of engagement but it was just incredibly frustrating to see those tasked with protecting the public basically rendered impotent to do anything until support in numbers arrived.

I can only imagine what it must have been like to be an innocent victim of the violence, see a squad car show up and still continue to be assaulted for a time.

It just seems that respect for the AGS is pretty low amongst your average scumbag and in public order situations like the one I saw it would be nice to see a better solution rather than waiting for the numbers to even up. Maybe guns are not the answer but something really needs to change.

How frustrating do you think it was for the members involved, having to stand back and watch a member of the public assaulted? This is the reality of policing outside the major cities in this country.

Remember, the government has cancelled recruitment so the situation is not going to change any time soon.

You have two things that you can do. In this situation, maybe come forward as a witness. Secondly, lobby your TD's.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I myself would be more in favour of having more armed support groups, but just on that point - if an officer uses a firearm do they have to use it in a "lethal force" manner? Surely if it ever came to arming the ordinary beat officer they would be trained to incapacitate a suspect by aiming for the legs or the like, rather than aiming to kill?

I prefer to shoot any potential weapon out of the gougers hand. :rolleyes:

Locust

Look at the PSNI where uniform members carry along with ARV type patrols where needed. Northern Ireland has had a hell of a lot of public order incidents that anywhere similar to our society. I NI is unique but the point is still there - They just have more training and better procedures and policies when it comes to public order type incidents.

I'm for arming its just part of being police universally and the fact that you carry is enough, even if you never draw it in your life.
But on the other hand i don't think AGS are ready to be armed yet in terms of attitude/mindsets and training/funding etc...

Locust

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Surely if it ever came to arming the ordinary beat officer they would be trained to incapacitate a suspect by aiming for the legs or the like, rather than aiming to kill?

And give pal a chance to shoot back at you or others? - not a chance! If you are drawing a firearm on someone you must be prepared to aim for the centre mass and shoot to kill following whatever procedures are set out. Not a particularly nice decision but thats what would be facing armed members. I suppose if he had a firearm - its him or you.

helimachoptor

nice guy always wrote: »

Here begings the problem.......a firearm has no part to play in a public order incident.

O/C spray, Tazer and ASPs do. The use of lethal force would not be justified in a serious assault in my opinion.

Agree and regarding the non lethal weapons I think all gardai should have these, a massive deterrent imo.

donvito99

I think the the issue of arming the RSU nationally 24/7 was being discussed at the AGSI conference today.

sdanseo

donvito99 wrote: »

I think the the issue of arming the RSU nationally 24/7 was being discussed at the AGSI conference today.

Yup, according to the radio in the car a while ago Fachtna basically said it won't happen while he's around.

I reckon all Gardaí should have tasers or firearms. It's about deterrent, and a can of spray or a baton may be effective when used, but a gun is very effective whilst still in its holster.

If and when I ever get into the Gardaí (probably about 2019 at this stage :rolleyes: ) I'd have no issue with being armed whatsoever.

FGR

I always see this argument relating to the threat of armed gardaí being outnumbered in a public order situation.

My question is - how do all of the other police forces in the world manage to cope in similar situations?

There are plenty of police officers who face these situations with backup a certain amount of time away. How do they stop this?

Zambia

ForegoneReality wrote: »

My question is - how do all of the other police forces in the world manage to cope in similar situations?

There are plenty of police officers who face these situations with backup a certain amount of time away. How do they stop this?

My guess is they wait for back up just like the Unarmed coppers.

johno2

ForegoneReality wrote: »

My question is - how do all of the other police forces in the world manage to cope in similar situations?

AFAIK almost all of them are armed. Most of them in the EU at least.

johno

Irish_polizei

johno2 wrote: »

AFAIK almost all of them are armed. Most of them in the EU at least.

johno

And USA, Canada and South America(although different ballgame), If i had my way, RSU would be in armed mode 24-7 in higher profile areas at least and have members whom wish to be trained in less lethal weapons, trained, and sent out and about on duty. But at the end of the day, not gona happen in my time...

its all about the money! ....

Hooch

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

But is the threat of lethal force far more useful then the actual use of lethal force?

Basically the incident I'm referring to involved two members of AGS waiting for about 7 minutes for support to arrive in numbers before getting involved in the row. Crucial time where an assault is concerned.

As custac said it cant be just a threat. Once you draw a firearm you cannot then holster it if it doesnt suit. Can see why the members didnt use O/C spray if it was a recent incident.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I myself would be more in favour of having more armed support groups, but just on that point - if an officer uses a firearm do they have to use it in a "lethal force" manner? Surely if it ever came to arming the ordinary beat officer they would be trained to incapacitate a suspect by aiming for the legs or the like, rather than aiming to kill?

Shoot to kill. In one of the last cases of a Garda shooting an offender he was criticised for aiming for the leg. Also with the bus incident in Dublin where members tried to shoot out tyres....a big no no.

sdonn wrote: »

If and when I ever get into the Gardaí (probably about 2019 at this stage :rolleyes: ) I'd have no issue with being armed whatsoever.

I dont think any member of AGS would have a problem carrying a firearm. It certainly wouldnt bother me, I have two personally. The issue is moving from one of the last unarmed uniform police services in the world. No other Police service in Europe is uniformly unarmed. AGS is.

ForegoneReality wrote: »

My question is - how do all of the other police forces in the world manage to cope in similar situations?

There are plenty of police officers who face these situations with backup a certain amount of time away. How do they stop this?

As above......were one of the very few left.

My issue with firearms is public perception. Whether people like to admit it or not, an armed Police officer is much less approachable than an unarmed one. How many times have you heard someone saying...."wouldnt be saying boo to an American cop...he'd shoot you" or something to that effect. We have a very proud tradition of being uniformly unarmed. I think we should stick to it.

It will be a sad day when I get told im to receive a personal firearm for patrol......however I will be the first to do the course and first to the door to collect it.

The RSU units were a great step in the right direction. Now they must remain armed 24/7....although they already do in one region. Add less than lethal weapons to the district patrol car crews and hey presto you have a good option.

Also review the uniform.....combats and a polo shirt for night duty......bit more "tatical" looking when its needed most.

Irish_polizei

The conference got support for arming the RSU at the conference today apparently....

Armed Garda gets conference backing

Dunne.Drift

No i dont think they should be armed... Special branch & higher only should be armed, and its bad enough there thing is '' shoot to kill, ask questions later'' and its all covered up after! :mad:

King Ludvig

I dont think the rank and file should be armed....RSU should be extended to every city though and armed and in tactial gear 24/7. None of this gun in the safe & changing clothes lark!

Locust

Dunne.Drift wrote: »

No i dont think they should be armed... Special branch & higher only should be armed, and its bad enough there thing is '' shoot to kill, ask questions later'' and its all covered up after! :mad:

Why the angry face? Do you think the cops should sit down with the (hypothetical) deranged man with the shotgun and question him over coffee first? Then decide to shoot him or not?
In real life there may be little time for questions if someone is deciding to point a gun at you or others. You do what you can but if you are armed everyone will be looking to you to do something.
Also I've always thought that arming AGS would bring the level of discipline & professionalism up a few notches.

Dunne.Drift

Dunne.Drift wrote: »

No i dont think they should be armed... Special branch & higher only should be armed, and its bad enough there thing is '' shoot to kill, ask questions later'' and its all covered up after! :mad:

Go and educate yourself will you. It's not shoot to kill, it's aim for the largest part of the person, i.e. The Torso.

And no special branch. Go look up the National Support Services. http://www.garda.ie/Default.aspx

And the rank structure for the men (and women) in suits is the same as uniform. So you have people of garda rank already carrying lethal weapons.

Oh, when the ERU are in their kit, is this not a uniform? And therefore, does this not mean that uniform gardai are already armed?

gilly0512

nice guy always wrote: »

I dont think any member of AGS would have a problem carrying a firearm. It certainly wouldnt bother me, I have two personally. The issue is moving from one of the last unarmed uniform police services in the world. No other Police service in Europe is uniformly unarmed. AGS is.

I also agree that the regular Gardai on the beat should remain unarmed, like several members have already pointed out here, a gun is not worth a damn to you going into the middle of a major public order incident. Pull or use your gun in the middle of such an incident, and it will be bye bye to your career. Also nice guy always, are the UK regular not unarmed, as you have stated above that AGS are the last remaining unarmed Police Force in the world, I though all UK Police forces with the exception of the PSNI, were to all intents and purposes unarmed Police Forces?