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Irish language?

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Comments

  • #452
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    This has happened for other subjects, and will continue to happen. For the first time in 35 years, German will not be offered as a subject to incoming first years in my local community school. The reason is the recent budgetary cutbacks in Education funding. Personally, I think it's dreadful that students are going to lose a valuable option - but that is the reality.
    Other schools throughout the country will have lost the option of other subjects, because they have to reduce the number of teachers.

    The theory that every subject is optional, with the exception of the core subjects, doesn't stand up to rational analysis, anyway.

    The reality is that students are presented with a range of choices in first year. Typically, this involves choosing one of a block of three subjects, to facilitate timetabling. Any student can only select one of the three subjects - so their "options" are severely limited from day one, in any case.

    The next hurdle is selecting subjects for Leaving cert.
    Again, the choices are divided into blocks, typically being broken down into a choice of one subject in a block of four.(For schools with 600 - 800 students, approx.) It is impossible for any school to arrange these blocks to suit every student. eg. My son wants to study Engineering at third level. One of the blocks he is currently being offered forces him to choose between Engineering and Technical graphics - he wanted to study both. Another block offers Business, Home Ec., Art, or Geography. He didn't take the first three subjects, so his only choice is Geography - which he loathes with a passion.
    He is just one example of how "optional" subject choices really are. There are many more students in the same position, re. their subject choices.
    To add to this, these blocks may well change by September - and, ideally, students should not have to choose their senior cycle subjects before they have their junior cert. results in any case!

    So, in reality, our "optional" subject choices can actually restrict our educational opportunities as much as they enhance them - adding Irish to the optional group just means that that there is one more subject that a potential 66% of our students may not get the opportunity to study.

    Ideally, I would love to see every 12 year old, having chosen their careers, being able to avail of any subject of their choice. I'm reliably informed by the local career guidance teacher, though, that a significant percentage of 17 year olds have no idea what they want to study at third level - therefore timetabling at our secondary schools tends to be structured so that no student is restricted from third level education, in the course of their choice, by poor subject choices at the age of 15.

    Maybe we should start discussing how many more subjects should be mandatory? Or how much damage is being done to Educational prospects by budgetary restrictions?

    Noreen

    While it's tragic, you can:

    1) Live with it
    2) Move to a different school
    3) Change your career prospects

    All 3 of them are possible. And I'm not going to force thousands of students to do one subject just because a few hundred want to take it.


  • #453
    Intothesea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    eddyc wrote: »
    You speak as if all Irish people are the same, some of us don't identify with Irish being part of our culture, the whole idea of a national culture is becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway with our ever more multicultural society. The fact is that in the modern world it is possible for somebody to have more in common culturally with someone from a different country than someone from down the road. Nationalism was necessary for the formation of the state but I think it does more harm than good now.

    For my money a mixed group of people need to harmonise along the most fundamental cultural lines of a given location in order to run a non-disastrous system. I think we could do with taking a leaf out of England's book and simply subsume all other cultural influences into one strong group identity. No matter who you are or think you are in Ireland, you're wrong. The utter stagnation visible from debacle to disaster; a government that runs feebly behind its people; those same people expecting fundamental disagreements on identity to create a superstate where logic reigns -- madness. As for the new economic age ushering in the need for less group affiliations? Only if we can operate in American-sized efforts with Germanic brains, I would wager :pac:


  • #454
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    I hate to disappoint you, but wanting to give people what I consider to be the basic right to speak their own language does not make anyone remotely resemble a "Nationalist Extremist". They use much more extreme methods of asserting their opinions.

    The English suppressed that right how? I doubt they shot people who spoke Irish on site. And by Nationalist Extremists, I refer to people who aspire to an Ireland where everryone speaks Irish, and achieving that through something resembling the current system of today

    Noreen1 wrote: »
    You mean the Celtic Tiger that helped bring the country to it's knees?
    The same one that was based on lies and abysmal banking practices?

    So wait, you're going to sit here and tell me we would be better off being screwed with the current economic climate and being undeveloped and even worse off than havign the Celtic tiger and taking the blow?

    Seriously, we would still be screwed now regardless of the Celtic tiger, but the blow feels like more because we started off at a better position. Without it the blow would have been worse, but we'd still be screwed. I appreciate begin in a developed nation rather than one still developing.

    Regardless, I don't fully support every aspect of the Celtic Tiger.
    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, they can't. Our schools don't have the necessary funding or resources to permit this. Even if the schools did have the necessary resources, Universities have entry requirements for English, Irish, Maths, and a foreign language - irrespective of the course requirements.

    Right, and if that is require than students can take it in bulk - problem solved.
    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Unfortunately not, again. Schools have designated cachement areas, so you can't just have your child go to the school of your choice, unless you want to move house as well.
    In addition, it is not uncommon in rural areas for secondary schools to be 30 miles apart. Two hours extra travelling time would affect the time spent studying other subjects more than the 30 minutes studying Irish, so would be self defeating.

    Again, it's totally your choice whether or not to move colleges, but forcing hundreds of thousands of teenagers to sit Irish just so it's convenient for a few is completely unfair.
    Noreen1 wrote: »
    The reality is that saying Irish and/or any other subject should be optional is overly simplistic.

    Yes, but it's optimal.
    Noreen1 wrote: »
    If you can produce evidence that the majority of Irish people do not want their children to learn Irish, then I'd be very interested in reading it.

    It's not what the parents want. Rather, what the students want. The parents shouldn't have the right to force their children to do everything. And before you reply - Josef Fritzl.
    Noreen1 wrote: »
    My personal experience is that people react very positively to hearing the language. I have often met people, who are not native speakers, who want to practice speaking Irish, or just love to hear it spoken.

    And my experience is the exact opposite. Experiences are subjective.


  • #455
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    It's not what the parents want. Rather, what the students want. The parents shouldn't have the right to force their children to do everything.

    No it's not - If it was what students wanted, it would be 10 art classes, and 10 PE classes a week. Parents are responsible for their children. Their children learn Irish, as part of the Irish curriculum.

    When you can demonstrate that the majority of children do not want to study Irish, or the majority of the people in Ireland do not want to study Irish - then we can discuss removing it from the curriculum.
    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    And before you reply - Josef Fritzl.

    Is that what this discussion has turned into?


  • #456
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No it's not - If it was what students wanted, it would be 10 art classes, and 10 PE classes a week.

    This. + 1000.


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  • #457
    citizen_p
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,494 ✭✭✭citizen_p


    i think it should be mandatory until 3rd year then a choice subject....then you might get a few interested and not have to force the rest to study a subject they dont want


    i dont really think there would be10 art classes etc....ffs most people arnt that stupid and it would be put against french/german/spanish if it was a choice


  • #458
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Mousey- wrote: »
    i think it should be mandatory until 3rd year then a choice subject....then you might get a few interested and not have to force the rest to study a subject they dont want

    That's actually a good idea. I think dlofnep has proposed something similar in depth a few pages back. Worth looking at it.
    Mousey- wrote: »
    i dont really think there would be10 art classes etc....ffs most people arnt that stupid and it would be put against french/german/spanish if it was a choice

    This was in response to:
    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    It's not what the parents want. Rather, what the students want.
    In other words, if this became reality students would be doing art and the like (that's if they decided to go into school, of course :rolleyes:).


  • #459
    Duggy747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    A few years ago I was ignorant and didn't give a shìte about the Irish language, I never counted it dead or "forget about it!" just wasn't arsed about it. Nowadays, though, I'm quite embarrased that I can't speak a word of it.

    There's been plenty of times where foreigners I've met or worked with have asked me to speak Irish and I can't do shìte except explain to them why I can't. :(

    I do plan someday to take it up and pick it up properly. It just needs a serious reform in teaching it.


  • #460
    eddyc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭eddyc


    Intothesea wrote: »
    As for the new economic age ushering in the need for less group affiliations? Only if we can operate in American-sized efforts with Germanic brains, I would wager :pac:

    The E.U? Thats another debate of course but I think an argument could be made that we are heading in that direction.

    As for people being embarrassed about not being able to speak Irish why? Unless you were born in the Gaeltacht English is your native language, whats the trouble there? Many modern languages of Europe stem from Latin, should a Spanish or a French person be ashamed they can't speak whatever language was there before the Romans?


  • #461
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    While it's tragic, you can:

    1) Live with it
    2) Move to a different school
    3) Change your career prospects

    All 3 of them are possible. And I'm not going to force thousands of students to do one subject just because a few hundred want to take it.

    You have completely ignored the validity of the argument that a percentage of our students are forced to take subjects that they do not want to study because of the way "optional" subjects are arranged for timetabling purposes.
    There is absolutely no question that other students are prevented from taking one or more of their chosen subjects for the exact same reason.

    I have outlined perfectly valid reasons why moving schools is not an option for the vast majority of our students.

    As to your suggestion that I "Live with it", or that my son should change his career prospects (Which, incidently, he thankfully doesn't have to do - unlike many students in a similar position) - it seems to be a rather contradictory statement from someone who appears to advocate the benefits of "choice".

    There is absolutely no point in having any further discussion on this subject. We each have our opinions, it's perfectly obvious that said opinions are firmly held. I'm perfectly happy to respectfully agree to disagree, but at this point, I see no further point in posting in this thread.

    Noreen


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  • #462
    Mayoegian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Mayoegian


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No it's not - If it was what students wanted, it would be 10 art classes, and 10 PE classes a week.

    I am currently a student in school and I can vouch wholeheartedly for this statement. The fact is, some students don't want to do Irish because they find it hard. Just like some find Maths hard. If you gave students half the chance to drop maths, can anyone say the majority of students wouldn't drop it? Kids in school nowadays see room to manoeuvre when it comes to Irish, because they recognise that it is a subject where people have conflicting opinions on whether it should be compulsory or not, based on social standings.

    The fact is, if Irish was to be made optional, the Irish language would decline drastically.


  • #463
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    A few years ago I was ignorant and didn't give a shìte about the Irish language, I never counted it dead or "forget about it!" just wasn't arsed about it. Nowadays, though, I'm quite embarrased that I can't speak a word of it.

    There's been plenty of times where foreigners I've met or worked with have asked me to speak Irish and I can't do shìte except explain to them why I can't. :(

    I do plan someday to take it up and pick it up properly. It just needs a serious reform in teaching it.


    You shouldn't feel embarrassed at not being able to speak Irish. It's not unusual. :D:D. Like you, I've found that foreigners seem to have a fascination for the Irish language - and they do react very positively to it.

    I think any of pro-Irish posters here would agree that serious reform is needed in teaching Irish, which is why you can't speak it.

    I wish you the best of luck if you decide to learn Irish. Dlofnep has some very good suggestions about learning Irish in some of his earlier posts, you might find them helpful. I really cannot advise you as easily, because I learned Irish the easy way - at my fathers knee.:D

    The best of luck to you!

    Noreen


  • #464
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Its pretty obvious that the pro Irish language lobby is more motivated by an emotional attachment to the language than any practical reason.

    The argument that 'sure you could say the same about any subject' just is not valid. Irish has no practical use in the modern world- even people who came on here and said they learnt it to fluency said they dont use it much.

    Calculus may not be understood by eveyrone who studies it and it may not be used by them directly however all mathematics are used everyday globally- whether you are aware of it or not- mathematics were used to design your house, your car, the computer you are using to read this etc etc etc.

    Also the argument that if we made all subjects optional students would pick all the easiest is first of all offensive to students and secondly misleading because the argument is not to make all subjects optional it is to make 'Irish an optional language course among German and French'- one of which the sudent must pick.

    Mandatory Irish lessons, I beleive, hurt the language much more by making students who have no interest in it hate it and downgrading the experience for students who like it.

    Its a nice language, and I beleive in anybodys right to learn it but at this stage it is little more than a hobby, whose only benefit is as a pastime for enthusiasts, - for the rest of us it serves no purpose.


  • #465
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    PK2008 wrote: »
    Its pretty obvious that the pro Irish language lobby is more motivated by an emotional attachment to the language than any practical reason.

    You are joking?

    Here are the views of some of your supposedly rational/unemotional colleagues in the anti-Irish lobby here. Comments such as this: 'I'm going to be honest, I hate Irish....Then there is the feeling that you are learning the lanuage [sic] of losers, the civilisation and people who where conquered. Personally I like to feel I'm not [sic] the winning side, i.e english speaker....Irish is a dead/useless language' and this: 'As a result Irish nationalist extremists became widely supported.... Of course, our national identity is a long established one of Drinkers, Fighters, Shamrocks, Catholics and Farmers. For me, Irish embodies this hideous stereotype. English has meant 100's of MNC's have invested here.... When we were heavily focused on being 'Irish', were were backward and undeveloped.' and this: 'I could give more than ten reasons for wasting our time learning a backward language'

    And so on ad infinitum.

    This is a matter of you seeing only what you want to see here. Most of the anti-Irish lobby here is so emotionally attached to hating - not merely 'disliking' - the language and the supposed "backwardness" of Irish culture generally that they are unable to express themselves in anything other than a turgid and tumescent standard of English.


  • #466
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    The practical reasons for making Irish an optional subject are these:

    1: Given the option, those who take it up will be those with a genuine interest in it ensuring a positive experience.
    2: Those who choose not to learn it will learn a language they have an interest in and have a positive experience.
    3: Those who have chosen it will not be dragged down by being in a class with people who have no interest in it.
    4: Those who have not chosen will not form a resentment to the language and may even return to it later in life without prejiduce.
    5: Leaving Cert students will have more time to focus on the courses that matter to their long term careers.
    6: Money can be saved in reduced costs from funding.

    These are all practical reasons for making it optional. Please provide practical reasons for keeping it mandatory


  • #467
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    How do you know I'm not a linguist ?

    I don't know


  • #468
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dionysus wrote: »
    I don't know
    Just for you.


  • #469
    Intothesea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    eddyc wrote: »
    The E.U? Thats another debate of course but I think an argument could be made that we are heading in that direction.

    I think the argument could have some merit where the entire EU was made up of Irish people :pac: Where a small country joins a monetary and partially political union I think the model is more like a game of chess and not a compound system. On this basis, I think a strong, uniform internal identity is paramount -- not that it isn't already.
    As for people being embarrassed about not being able to speak Irish why? Unless you were born in the Gaeltacht English is your native language, whats the trouble there? Many modern languages of Europe stem from Latin, should a Spanish or a French person be ashamed they can't speak whatever language was there before the Romans?

    I'll take a guess that people can feel embarrassed because they recognise the value of the language in relation to their own implicit cultural identity. Not too mysterious ;)


  • #470
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    he thinks it's dead?

    well straight up he is wrong off the bat.


    1 - use it.
    2 - dont use it.

    fairly black and white I think.


  • #471
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Dionysus wrote: »
    I don't know
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Just for you.


    :mad:

    Don't.


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  • #472
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No it's not - If it was what students wanted, it would be 10 art classes, and 10 PE classes a week. Parents are responsible for their children. Their children learn Irish, as part of the Irish curriculum.

    Lol, children below a certain age only have a limited amount of reason. However at the age of 15 I think they can make some reasonable decisions.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    When you can demonstrate that the majority of children do not want to study Irish, or the majority of the people in Ireland do not want to study Irish - then we can discuss removing it from the curriculum.

    "The Royal Irish Academy's 2006 conference on "Language Policy and Language Planning in Ireland" found that the study of Irish and other languages is declining in Ireland. The number of schoolchildren studying "higher level" Irish for the Leaving Certificate dropped from 15,719 in 2001 to 14,358 in 2005"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language#Irish-medium_education_.28Outside_Gaeltacht_regions.29

    That's a pretty good indication, given that students are often neglected in these situations.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Is that what this discussion has turned into?

    Yes, to say it is a parents will opens the door to a lot of things.


  • #473
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    Dionysus wrote: »
    This was in response to: In other words, if this became reality students would be doing art and the like (that's if they decided to go into school, of course :rolleyes:).

    I meant after 3rd year :)


  • #474
    lugha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

    1 - use it.
    2 - dont use it.

    fairly black and white I think.
    Fine with 1. , if you don't insist that others use it. But if you support it being a compulsory school subject, that's what you are doing.


  • #475
    thetonynator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭thetonynator


    leaving cert irish has nothing to do with irish speaking, its a ridiculous course without much emphasis on speaking and way to much on poetry and stories and sh!t. luckily thats about to change at least slightly weith the new course.

    But i know a few people, who despit not taking leaving cert higher level irish, are now fluent irish speakers as they thought them selves. So those stats may not be accurate, no one wants to learn a language through poetry . . .


  • #476
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    thetonynator wrote: »
    leaving cert irish has nothing to do with irish speaking, its a ridiculous course without much emphasis on speaking and way to much on poetry and stories and sh!t. luckily thats about to change at least slightly weith the new course.

    But i know a few people, who despit not taking leaving cert higher level irish, are now fluent irish speakers as they thought them selves. So those stats may not be accurate, no one wants to learn a language through poetry . . .

    In 2012 and onwards the oral will count for 40% :D


  • #477
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    In 2012 and onwards the oral will count for 40% :D
    That won't do anyhting but increase the pressure on the run up to the orals.


  • #478
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No it's not - If it was what students wanted, it would be 10 art classes, and 10 PE classes a week. Parents are responsible for their children. Their children learn Irish, as part of the Irish curriculum.

    When you can demonstrate that the majority of children do not want to study Irish, or the majority of the people in Ireland do not want to study Irish - then we can discuss removing it from the curriculum.



    Is that what this discussion has turned into?
    Being forced to learn Irish would make you not want to learn it.. And let's face it irish is friggen useless! It's like my mum she's trying to force her religion down my throat and I hate it and you know what I just ignore because I hate it my churchbis the most boring service ever!! When I grow up I will NOT be attenting


  • #479
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    What I dont get is that while peoples opinions about the desirability of learning Irish differ there is almost across the board consensus that the way in which it is taught in most schools is pretty terrible yet it continues largely unchanged (bar some tinkering around the edges) for many decades now.

    Why ?


  • #480
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Intothesea wrote: »
    I think the argument could have some merit where the entire EU was made up of Irish people :pac: Where a small country joins a monetary and partially political union I think the model is more like a game of chess and not a compound system. On this basis, I think a strong, uniform internal identity is paramount -- not that it isn't already.



    I'll take a guess that people can feel embarrassed because they recognise the value of the language in relation to their own implicit cultural identity. Not too mysterious ;)
    Not everyone is obsesssed with their culture were not Americans here!


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  • #481
    peabutler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭peabutler


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    What I dont get is that while peoples opinions about the desirability of learning Irish differ there is almost across the board consensus that the way in which it is taught in most schools is pretty terrible yet it continues largely unchanged (bar some tinkering around the edges) for many decades now.

    Why ?



    Because, Teachers! What do you do have some young teachers able to teach you correctly by speaking and some older teachers who have pretty basic Irish but know a couple stories and poems. It's handy totally revamp the syllabus and way the subject is taught but half the teachers out there won't be able to teach it a new way.


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