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PS3 Firmware (v3.21) Update 1st April

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Comments

  • #92
    eddhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭eddhorse


    mixednuts wrote: »
    a) Identify the threat

    b) Identify a soution

    c) Identify how many users I need to fix.

    d)If my fix involved removing a feature ( regardless of feature use or importance), from 1 user out of the millions of devices I have sold then I have no right to manipulate this SOLD unit remotly and remove the feature , regardless of the other 50million users it won't affect.

    e)Go back to the drawing board and identify a proper solution.


    It's no big issue cause people say " never used other OS in anyway" but if GeoHots hack used a different feature for his exploit (eg blueray)what would SONY do then ?... I bet a proper fix not an amputation .
    Why does everyone think that SONY removing a feature from a SOLD unit is alright ?


    .

    Great answer, i do see both sides of this argument, bit shortsighted for the better good. There must be other reasons to the swift response to this


  • #93
    projectmayhem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,480 ✭✭✭projectmayhem


    mixednuts wrote: »
    It's no big issue cause people say " never used other OS in anyway" but if GeoHots hack used a different feature for his exploit (eg blueray)what would SONY do then ?... I bet a proper fix not an amputation .

    Correct. But because OtherOS isn't a big feature and has a relatively low usage, there's no need to spend money on researching, programming and patching a fix for GeoHot's hack. Rather, you can remove an oft-unused feature of the system and nuke the issue before it gets to be a problem.
    mixednuts wrote: »
    Why does everyone think that SONY removing a feature from a SOLD unit is alright ?
    .

    Because the feature in question is useless, and it saves an entire industry from having to lose MORE money. It's not worth the risk of a dodgy patch to try and fix it. I doubt you can patch this kind of thing because the OS would grant too much access to the unit - hence the issue here.

    I really fail to see why this is an argument. Sure, removing a feature is bad - but it's for the greater good. If this issue came from blu-ray or online connectivity of course sony would patch rather then remove - I'm not quite sure what your argument is suggesting. Do you think Sony would as easily nuke blu-ray support if a hack was discovered that way?


  • #94
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    projectmayhem wrote: »
    You're not comparing like for like. Removing a pedal or changing the tyres on a car inhibits the basic function of the product, while removing OtherOS does not inhibit the basic function of the device, but does prevent hackers from gaining unwanted access to the system to use it for illegal activities.

    Its not illegal to play copied games if it is a back up. It is your right as a consumer to do that.

    Its only illegal if you don't buy the game, simple as. Sony would rather ensure people who scratch discs have no choice but to buy another copy rather than let them make back ups or implement a valve like download system even though they have all the technology in place to allow such a system.
    projectmayhem wrote: »
    That argument falls to pieces when you look at the PSP. It's a total disaster because of piracy, which ruined the platform and forced 2 quick revisions to help get it out of the hole it was in.

    Developers have cut budgets and even stopped working on PSP altogether because there's no economic reason to develop, because everyone pirates their games on it.

    The DS is also p**** easy to pirate for. The PSP's problems extend beyond piracy although it is a factor I'm sure. My little brother hacked his and sold it later as he was bored of the games available for it.
    First thing is that Gabe talks an incredible amount of crap, all the time. Second, his view on piracy is not the same as first, he doesn't develop on a console and second he doesn't release disc-based games. Even buying a disk of a Valve title only ensures you get a code to download the title on Steam. This is not viable on a PS3 as everyone needs to be online to ensure their disk operates effectively.

    Developing on a console or not is irrelevant. Hell, most people will agree, piracy is a bigger problem on PC where it is harder to have full control. You say Sony release disc based games but half the content on the disc including patches etc... are only available if you have online access. Even though Sony sell games on disc, it would not stop them offering a download facility to those with proper connections to download copies of their games if their discs are too scratched.

    What it all comes down to is they don't want to. They shouldn't be surprised when people want to screw them and steal games when they are trying to screw their users. You only get what you give.

    I stopped playing Pc games until I got into TF2 on PC due to requirements but now I'm buying a gaming PC and in the past year alone I've spent over 200 euro on games on Steam because of how trouble free a system it is when I could easily have pirated about 90% of those games if I wanted to. The reason I didn't is Valves system is far easier and trouble free an experience.

    When I see crap like this from Sony/Ms and the same rehased titles, it just makes me see why I didn't turn on either console for the past few months and that the PS3 only got turned on to play through Heavy Rain and check out LBP updates.

    My conclusion, give original, fun, supported content to people and they will buy from you, give them as little as you and cut off support as soon as you can and assume they will steal if they can and you'll get people trying to hack your crap and take content for free. A certain amount of piracy is inevitable on any platform because some people can't afford the content but want it anyway. This isn't a sales loss as they can't afford the game in the first place which is why they are stealing it.


  • #95
    Jackobyte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,321 ✭✭✭Jackobyte


    projectmayhem wrote: »

    Because the feature in question is useless, and it saves an entire industry from having to lose MORE money. It's not worth the risk of a dodgy patch to try and fix it. I doubt you can patch this kind of thing because the OS would grant too much access to the unit - hence the issue here.
    When GeoHotz hacked it, he said that he thought himself it was unpatchable. I don't think he ever expected an out and out removal of the OtherOS option.


  • #96
    projectmayhem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,480 ✭✭✭projectmayhem


    thebman wrote: »
    Its not illegal to play copied games if it is a back up. It is your right as a consumer to do that.

    Its only illegal if you don't buy the game, simple as. Sony would rather ensure people who scratch discs have no choice but to buy another copy rather than let them make back ups or implement a valve like download system even though they have all the technology in place to allow such a system.

    The number of times a disc is scratched does not justify the investment at all. Don't for a second think Microsoft allow HD installs because they're being nice. They're doing it to qwell the critisisms of their system being too loud.

    Also, your "rights" as a consumer really only come into play if the system you're using provides the functionality to do such things.
    thebman wrote: »
    The DS is also p**** easy to pirate for. The PSP's problems extend beyond piracy although it is a factor I'm sure. My little brother hacked his and sold it later as he was bored of the games available for it.

    I already made this argument about the Wii - it's a different market. The kids and parents using the DS or Wii are not hackers. Those using the PS3 are far more savvy to such things.
    thebman wrote: »
    Developing on a console or not is irrelevant. Hell, most people will agree, piracy is a bigger problem on PC where it is harder to have full control. You say Sony release disc based games but half the content on the disc including patches etc... are only available if you have online access. Even though Sony sell games on disc, it would not stop them offering a download facility to those with proper connections to download copies of their games if their discs are too scratched.

    Half the stuff may be online, but that's an argument about individual games, not the system and piracy. Also, offering online download facilities for games comes down to licensing. The issue there is that publishers make a nice chunk of change from retail sales, and would rather not use web-based stuff exclusively. On top of that, most consumers prefer buying physical copies of discs, rather then digital stuff (bar smaller games).

    Again, I think the scratched disk thing is redundant. Don't scratch your disk. If you are consistently scratching disks then it's you that's the issue, not the Playstation. Do you really blame Sony when you scratch your disks?
    thebman wrote: »
    What it all comes down to is they don't want to. They shouldn't be surprised when people want to screw them and steal games when they are trying to screw their users. You only get what you give.

    You'll have to explain how removing the option to install Linux on a console to save it from being hacked and enabling widespread piracy is equatable to Sony "screwing the users"? Also, people who download games are not rebels who are trying to screw big businesses. They're just people who don't want to pay for products. They're not high and mighty about such things. In the end, it wouldn't even be Sony who ultimately suffers - it's not even the publishers... it's the developers. The lowly programmers and artists who make the damn product.
    thebman wrote: »
    I stopped playing Pc games until I got into TF2 on PC due to requirements but now I'm buying a gaming PC and in the past year alone I've spent over 200 euro on games on Steam because of how trouble free a system it is when I could easily have pirated about 90% of those games if I wanted to. The reason I didn't is Valves system is far easier and trouble free an experience.

    And I agree, it's easy and trouble-free, but a system like that doesn't work on consoles because the economy is established different. It's not the same market, it's a far, far bigger one. One that has a whole eco-system built around it. Think of all the retail jobs lost if Sony and MS go digital-only. Now consider the fact that kids without credit cards can't buy games anymore, ultimately the industry falls apart after that. Retail is key to it. It doesn't matter how much Valve sells on Steam, they're a unique case. The sales on Steam on products that had a retail release are far less favourable when you look at them.
    thebman wrote: »
    My conclusion, give original, fun, supported content to people and they will buy from you, give them as little as you and cut off support as soon as you can and assume they will steal if they can and you'll get people trying to hack your crap and take content for free. A certain amount of piracy is inevitable on any platform because some people can't afford the content but want it anyway. This isn't a sales loss as they can't afford the game in the first place which is why they are stealing it.

    Here's the kicker for you: piracy should not be inevitable. Nor should it be symptomatic of people being "rebels" for some cause. Keep in mind the number of games pirated on PS3 thus far is zero. Yep. Zero. In comparison to the 1 billion units of MW2 alone pirated on 360, that saved a lot of money, a lot of people kept jobs because of that, and the industry kept on ticking.

    ...but no, you'd rather have linux installed on a PS3 then keep that going.


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  • #97
    Headshot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 55,639 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    iv this downloaded by my laptop and plan to copy it to my usb drive

    do i need to do anything special in the usb drive like creating a folder or something folks ?


  • #98
    WolfForager
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭WolfForager


    Headshot wrote: »
    iv this downloaded by my laptop and plan to copy it to my usb drive

    do i need to do anything special in the usb drive like creating a folder or something folks ?

    PS3/UPDATE/updatefile


  • #99
    Headshot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 55,639 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    WolfForager wrote: »
    PS3/UPDATE/updatefile

    ah that's it

    thanks very much


  • #100
    eddhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭eddhorse


    I reckon Sony will have something juicy to give back to the PS3 owners because of this "removal of service".....


  • #101
    Tommy_NDX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭Tommy_NDX


    But Sony aren't forcing you to do the the update. They are giving you the choice of keeping all the functions of your purchased machine or continued use of their free online gaming network.

    It is a bit of a kick for the few people who bought the ps3 for the other OS but in the end the ps3 is a games console, not a car/bicycle/PC and the reason it was made and sold was for next-gen gaming, not sh1tty linux.


    PS. geohot is a tool.


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  • #102
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Tommy_NDX wrote: »
    But Sony aren't forcing you to do the the update. They are giving you the choice of keeping all the functions of your purchased machine or continued use of their free online gaming network.

    It is a bit of a kick for the few people who bought the ps3 for the other OS but in the end the ps3 is a games console, not a car/bicycle/PC and the reason it was made and sold was for next-gen gaming, not sh1tty linux.


    PS. geohot is a tool.


    You can not use the internet browser anymore though either?


  • #103
    eddhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭eddhorse


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    You can not use the internet browser anymore though either?

    Slight bit late for an April Fools joke


  • #104
    _tony_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭_tony_


    Tommy_NDX wrote: »
    But Sony aren't forcing you to do the the update. They are giving you the choice of keeping all the functions of your purchased machine or continued use of their free online gaming network.

    It is a bit of a kick for the few people who bought the ps3 for the other OS but in the end the ps3 is a games console, not a car/bicycle/PC and the reason it was made and sold was for next-gen gaming, not sh1tty linux.


    PS. geohot is a tool.

    They are forcing people to update if they want to play new games - as they will require firmware 3.21.

    I'm not too sure that they are doing this becasue of geohot. They removed OtherOS from the Slim long before geohot even had a ps3. As far as his 'hack' goes - removing OtherOS does not block it, as all his hack was made to do was to dump the hypervisor. Now there are many dumped hypervisors floating around the internet and noone needs to use his hack anymore. If/When the PS3 is hacked, it will more than likely come from his hack as noone had a proper copy of the hypervisor before....but once bugs are found in it, these bugs will probably still be present in the 3.21 anyway. If this turns out to be the case, then there's a good chance people won't need OtherOS to install it.

    Remember how the Wii was hacked - once people got dumps of the OS, they noticed a rookie error in how the Wii checked the digitial signature on applications...


  • #105
    whiterebel
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    mixednuts wrote: »
    a) Identify the threat

    b) Identify a Solution

    c) Identify how many users I need to fix.

    d)If my fix involved removing a feature ( regardless of feature use or importance), from 1 user out of the millions of devices I have sold then I have no right to manipulate this SOLD unit remotly and remove the feature , regardless of the other 50million users it won't affect.

    e)Go back to the drawing board and identify a proper solution.


    It's no big issue cause people say " never used other OS in anyway" but if GeoHots hack used a different feature for his exploit (eg blueray)what would SONY do then ?... I bet a proper fix not an amputation .
    Why does everyone think that SONY removing a feature from a SOLD unit is alright ?


    .

    I wonder what Sony would have done if 99% of the users did use the OtherOS feature


  • #106
    _tony_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭_tony_


    whiterebel wrote: »
    I wonder what Sony would have done if 99% of the users did use the OtherOS feature

    They could have just fixed the bug in the hypervisor - just as they did with the old graphics card hack that people could do from OtherOS. I assume that they did fix it anyway cos otherwise if any buffer-overflow/other method is found for the GameOS the hack could be repeated and the latest version of the hypervisor could be dumped...


  • #107
    projectmayhem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,480 ✭✭✭projectmayhem


    _tony_ wrote: »
    I'm not too sure that they are doing this becasue of geohot. They removed OtherOS from the Slim long before geohot even had a ps3.

    Of course they are doing this from geohot. OtherOS did not feature in the slim PS3 because there's a cost and overhead associated with having it in there. The whole point of the slim PS3 is to remove niggly overheads and deliver a cheaper product to the market. Also, GeoHot said he was working on this for 3 years... which says he had this long before the Slim.
    _tony_ wrote: »
    As far as his 'hack' goes - removing OtherOS does not block it, as all his hack was made to do was to dump the hypervisor.

    The only way to access the necessary files and information on the system is to go through otherOS. You cannot do this by dumping random crap onto the HD because PS3's firmware simply won't allow any shenanigans. GeoHot himself, in his own documentation said that the only way to make apps, download games and apply custom firmware is through otherOS. Why do you think he's attempting to build a custom firmware to get around this update?

    (by the way, the custom firmware probably won't work because Sony can cut users off from PSN - PSN is far better at things like authentication then XBL)
    _tony_ wrote: »
    Now there are many dumped hypervisors floating around the internet and noone needs to use his hack anymore. If/When the PS3 is hacked, it will more than likely come from his hack as noone had a proper copy of the hypervisor before....but once bugs are found in it, these bugs will probably still be present in the 3.21 anyway. If this turns out to be the case, then there's a good chance people won't need OtherOS to install it.

    Hypervisor only allows access to the low level hardware from the OtherOS, and can only be accessed through otherOS. I don't know why you think a registry dump of hypervisor will allow access without otherOS. How do you think a dump is going to help on the standard firmware on a ps3?

    I keep re-iterating this point over and over - the only way to get hacks to work on PS3 is through otherOS. It took over 3 years to find that hack, and somehow people think Sony can't lock it down. They can, and did.... by nuking otherOS, which conveniently, is the only way to run this hack.
    _tony_ wrote: »
    Remember how the Wii was hacked - once people got dumps of the OS, they noticed a rookie error in how the Wii checked the digitial signature on applications...

    PS3 is a lot more secure then the Wii, by nature of the cell broadband architecture (IBM wanted this tech for server-side applications, so security was paramount from the offset) and the software side (software on the hardware, if you get what I mean) because Sony were burned quite badly with ridiculously easy hacks on the PSP.

    The Wii's hack was done through an OS dump, which is when people get complete access to the Wii's operating system. It didn't have much in the way of security to begin with (remember what I said, the Wii userbase ain't tech savvy) so a digital signature hack was bound to happen as Nintendo have never really had to worry about such things.
    whiterebel wrote: »
    I wonder what Sony would have done if 99% of the users did use the OtherOS feature

    They would have found a way to patch it. Easy.

    Again, nuking the problem is the easiest and most fail-safe patch there is here. Since the feature is used by, probably, less then 1% of all PS3 users (considering all slimline models don't have it anyway, and they're the models that sold record numbers, record fast) it's not that big a deal. I get the big picture question of "what if Sony removed another feature remotely", but that's not the problem here. OtherOS is not a good feature you used - so stop worrying folks. Scare-mongering with talk of Sony removing PSN or something huge because of a hack is ridiculous.

    Sure, Sony probably could have patched this one - but why bother? Close the door altogether with removing otherOS. Barely anyone uses it. Why spend the money researching and patching it (which takes a long time, for those of you unfamiliar with software development) with a fix that could still leave the door open for hackers, when you can just shut the door entirely?
    _tony_ wrote: »
    They could have just fixed the bug in the hypervisor - just as they did with the old graphics card hack that people could do from OtherOS. I assume that they did fix it anyway cos otherwise if any buffer-overflow/other method is found for the GameOS the hack could be repeated and the latest version of the hypervisor could be dumped...

    Again, read what you're saying. The last bug came from otherOS, and this hack is from otherOS. Why would you spend so much time fixing a feature no one uses?


  • #108
    Leiva
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    projectmayhem wrote: »
    OtherOS did not feature in the slim PS3 because there's a cost and overhead associated with having it in there. The whole point of the
    Same cost and overhead would have been built into the RRP from the PS3 Phat ... so where is the compensation for removal of a feature that they have costed and charged the end user for ?

    Dont tell me again about how little use the Other OS got so removal is not an issue .
    Not an issue for the majority , but the minority have also spent good money on a machine which has now been doctored .(post purchase)


  • #109
    _tony_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭_tony_


    projectmayhem wrote: »
    Again, read what you're saying. The last bug came from otherOS, and this hack is from otherOS. Why would you spend so much time fixing a feature no one uses?

    I agree with most of what you said - you are underestimating the quality of the security in the Wii and PSP though. Only 1 bug in the Wii OS was found - and it took people a long time to find it too. As for the PSP, the PSP has not yet been 100% hacked - while you can run whatever you want on it, and the CFWs on it are mature - noone has ever got the hardware root key for the PSP.

    In the case of the PS3s geohot bug/hack - this was not a bug in OtherOS. I don't think it was really even a bug - there is just a pattern to how the MMU maps memory. While the exploit is easiest to run from the OtherOS side - technically this is a hypervisor level issue, and as GameOS runs under the hypervisor as well, it is still present there - unless I am mistaken? (of course - it has not been exploited from GameOS as noone can run unsigned code from it).

    The dumps from Geohots hack enable people to learn more about the ps3 hypervisor than they knew previously - and do have the potential to lead to other exploits to being found.

    The Cell's security is (in my opinion) not why the PS3 remains secure. It's the RAM is too bloody fast to tinker about with (from a hardware POV). The Cell helps - the isolated SPU architecture is smart - but it does not need to be hacked to run other apps. The PPU is what is in control, and it can enable/disable the SPUs. If people could read/write to the RAM bus (via hardware) we would have probably seen a CFW by now.

    Even if there was/is a PS3 CFW, Sony will block PSN access for those who use it - which is a great thing :) Noone wants modded games on the PSN. And although I have no interest in backups/pirating games, I would love to see VLC and Firefox on my XMB :D


  • #110
    projectmayhem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,480 ✭✭✭projectmayhem


    mixednuts wrote: »
    Same cost and overhead would have been built into the RRP from the PS3 Phat ... so where is the compensation for removal of a feature that they have costed and charged the end user for ?

    The compensation is that without otherOS, there will be no hack, and the prices of games won't be forced upwards because piracy wrecks sales numbers.
    mixednuts wrote: »
    Dont tell me again about how little use the Other OS got so removal is not an issue .
    Not an issue for the majority , but the minority have also spent good money on a machine which has now been doctored .(post purchase)

    Again, this is the vast, vast minority. I emailed Sony to ask for a number on the amount of people using otherOS. If they have a number I expect it to be less then 1%. If those few people have bought a PS3 to run linux then they've ripped themselves off in the first place, but secondly, Sony will still sell units to people like the US army and developers running PS3 cluster servers. I'm sure people who need Linux on a PS3 will be catered to.

    Again, even the minority will understand that the removal of this feature saves a whole lot of pain down the road.
    _tony_ wrote: »
    I agree with most of what you said - you are underestimating the quality of the security in the Wii and PSP though. Only 1 bug in the Wii OS was found - and it took people a long time to find it too. As for the PSP, the PSP has not yet been 100% hacked - while you can run whatever you want on it, and the CFWs on it are mature - noone has ever got the hardware root key for the PSP.

    Hardware is always locked down quite well, but the bugs that were found were rudimentary and, as far a I know, not exactly difficult ones. It just took a bit of time and luck to find them. This is why the PS3 is iron-clad stuff. It's also probably why Sony worked with IBM on this one...
    _tony_ wrote: »
    In the case of the PS3s geohot bug/hack - this was not a bug in OtherOS. I don't think it was really even a bug - there is just a pattern to how the MMU maps memory. While the exploit is easiest to run from the OtherOS side - technically this is a hypervisor level issue, and as GameOS runs under the hypervisor as well, it is still present there - unless I am mistaken? (of course - it has not been exploited from GameOS as noone can run unsigned code from it).

    There was an original bug (it didn't allow a hack... it was a real bug with otherOS) which I was referring to earlier.

    The hypervisor issue is touchy. It's easiest and more common to gain access through otherOS, but GameOS is locked down fairly solidly (and probably moreso now with the new patch), so it would take a long time to run anything on it. As you say, you can't run unsigned code with it. The only way is to use otherOS to exploit the system and install a custom firmware - and CFW wouldn't be as easy as PSP CFW because of the nature of the system and the security imposed.

    I'm sure there's a way somehow to do it via gameOS, but it wouldn't be easy. And it'd be dangerous, as tampering with that code, by its very nature, could wreck a system. Remember, all this talk and hackery still hasn't granted access to cell, and the individual SPU's on cell - one of which controls OS functions. It wouldn't take much for Sony to use that to their advantage of a gameOS exploit came along.
    _tony_ wrote: »
    The dumps from Geohots hack enable people to learn more about the ps3 hypervisor than they knew previously - and do have the potential to lead to other exploits to being found.

    While that is true, the system is far more secure then previous efforts in the console market - which makes it attractive to devs. New exploits could come from this but people are also underestimating Sony's ability to lock things down. This patch was not a 5mb file that overwrote the ability to install otherOS - it did more, and Sony didn't say what it did.
    _tony_ wrote: »
    The Cell's security is (in my opinion) not why the PS3 remains secure. It's the RAM is too bloody fast to tinker about with (from a hardware POV). The Cell helps - the isolated SPU architecture is smart - but it does not need to be hacked to run other apps. The PPU is what is in control, and it can enable/disable the SPUs. If people could read/write to the RAM bus (via hardware) we would have probably seen a CFW by now.

    Again, I imagine this is partly why IBM were involved in this device. The broadband architecture is very secure, very fast and very efficient. It would be a hackers dream to control all of that but whatever about Sony and the games industry needing it to stay secure - IBM don't want to lose business in their Blade server line (which run Cell) to people buying hacked PS3's.
    _tony_ wrote: »
    Even if there was/is a PS3 CFW, Sony will block PSN access for those who use it - which is a great thing :) Noone wants modded games on the PSN. And although I have no interest in backups/pirating games, I would love to see VLC and Firefox on my XMB :D

    Sony will be on top of hacks quickly if they come. Updates come from disks on Sony platforms (unlike the 360, IIRC) and they can force users to update to play new titles. Even today, this has always been an issue on PSP units. New titles still require updates, and CFW's often can't find a way around it. Users have to wait for the new CFW or just update. The volume of titles on the PS3 would make that impossible for users.

    Granted, seeing stuff like VLC and Firefox would be great - it also dilutes the business plan of the PS3 for Sony. Just like Apple only allowing Safari on iPhone and iPad.


  • #111
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    eddhorse wrote: »
    Slight bit late for an April Fools joke

    Ehh?

    I thought that I could remember not being allowed look at the browser once, as I had not got the update.

    Granted I do not use it much but it is grand for checking cinema times etc, when I could not be arsed booting up the laptop


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  • #112
    eddhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭eddhorse


    Sorry i thought you meant that you updated your firmware and you couldnt browse the net anymore...

    Generally they dont let you do anything until you update...


  • #113
    spider guardian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 884 ✭✭✭spider guardian


    projectmayhem wrote: »

    Again, read what you're saying. The last bug came from otherOS, and this hack is from otherOS. Why would you spend so much time fixing a feature no one uses?

    This is a very interesting thread and some good points have been raised by people on both sides of the debate. What I think it really comes down to at the end of the day is a how effectively sony think they can remove the piracy threat as cheaply as possible without the vast majority of users even noticing any changes.

    Getting rid of the other OS option is a no-brainer for sony if it hinders the hackers. trying to re-program the other OS feature to exclude hackers AND retain the same functionality would be a development nightmare. why throw good money at a feature that hardly anyone uses?

    Of course it is annoying for people that use the feature but how many people use the ps3 as their main computing system? will people be seriously inconvenienced by this? i don't think so.

    Unfortunately sony and IBM have their business interests to consider and they simply can't afford to let their systems become compromised over a niche feature. the psp has taught sony as much.


  • #114
    _tony_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭_tony_


    spider guardian wrote: »
    What I think it really comes down to at the end of the day is a how effectively sony think they can remove the piracy threat as cheaply as possible without the vast majority of users even noticing any changes.

    Getting rid of the other OS option is a no-brainer for sony if it hinders the hackers. trying to re-program the other OS feature to exclude hackers AND retain the same functionality would be a development nightmare. why throw good money at a feature that hardly anyone uses?

    If removing OtherOS hinders the hackers it certainly is a no brainer - only *very* few customers actually used the feature. Time will tell if they did hinder the hackers though, cos I think right now, there is a bigger demand for the system to be hacked, and more hackers are giving it a second look. I think before geohots hack nobody was trying to hack it - those who tried had failed and given up. After geohots hack a few of the groups were looking into it again but nothing seemed to come of it. This firmware update has created a huge amount of hype on the popular ps3 sites - even geohot's blog - which he had stopped updating and announced he was not working on the ps3 anymore, was getting 100's of comments per hour after sony's announcement (albeit mostly containing very hateful stuff). The few talented (and innocent) people who were using OtherOS to experience Cell development are now put into a position to either 'delete' their years of coding/programs or no longer use their PS3 for new games. These people were not trying to hack the PS3 before, but I guess they may do so now.


  • #115
    spider guardian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 884 ✭✭✭spider guardian


    time will indeed tell if this prevents hacking or not but you can't fault sony for trying. If the cell enthusiasts love programming for it then there is always the option of simply buying a new or second-hand one for playing new and networked games. not an ideal situation but at least the option is there. it's not as if the machine was ever marketed as a programming device.


  • #116
    _tony_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭_tony_


    spider guardian wrote: »
    it's not as if the machine was ever marketed as a programming device.

    This is why some people are so annoyed about this. It certainly was marketed as a programming device. I recieved an email (from Sony through work) around the time they started taking preorders where their marketing angle was that it was an affordable way to get into Cell programming. I also recall seeing Sony representitives discussing it as this as well - the linux support was of particular interest to IBM - as it let people learn how to program a Cell. Otherwise people could never have any experience with programming the Cell before working in a commercial environment on it.

    The sucess of the Cell itself was, in the early days, attached closely to the PS3 linux support as for the Cell to be utilised, programs have to essentially be re-written and noone was going to buy a farm of IBM Cell blades if no software can utilise the Cell hardware. If you wanted to run generic ports (i.e. PPU-based) of software you could get much more bang for your buck with Intel/AMD (not in terms of theoretical TFLOPS, but in real application running time).


  • #117
    spider guardian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 884 ✭✭✭spider guardian


    Well how many serious programmers are using a games console to develop systems? surely at this stage there is proper support out there for cell development.

    and they did market it as a development machine at the start? news to me. big business can a short memory when the bottom line is threatened!


  • #118
    _tony_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭_tony_


    spider guardian wrote: »
    Well how many serious programmers are using a games console to develop systems? surely at this stage there is proper support out there for cell development.

    and they did market it as a development machine at the start? news to me. big business can a short memory when the bottom line is threatened!

    I'd say it's only a few businesses that are using them - maybe some Cell software development specialists. An IBM Cell Blade costs about 8k last time I checked. I think a PS3 sells for about 250 these days? So if you want to do Cell development, and have 8k to spend - you could have 1 Blade server, or 32 PS3s. Easy decision for any small company :) (at least up until now :P)

    Maybe this was a factor in the decision to stop OtherOS - Maybe not enough (any?) open source Cell development was happening on PS3 anymore - Sony looses money per unit sold, and in some cases, people buy them instead of a real Cell Blade. If companies buy a bunch of PS3s for development they probably buy no games either. So both IBM and Sony loose out, while at the same time OtherOS lets people try to hack the system. Simple decision there! :)

    I'm just glad I decided not to go the PS3 Cell route in work - I'd be in some trouble now :D

    Another thing I hadn't thought of before - If someone decides to not upgrade, and stay using OtherOS/Cell development, then if their PS3 breaks...i guess Sony will refuse to repair without update? don't think they made any comments about this.

    Ah well....glad I avoided Cell development :pac:


  • #119
    projectmayhem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,480 ✭✭✭projectmayhem


    _tony_ wrote: »
    I'd say it's only a few businesses that are using them - maybe some Cell software development specialists. An IBM Cell Blade costs about 8k last time I checked. I think a PS3 sells for about 250 these days? So if you want to do Cell development, and have 8k to spend - you could have 1 Blade server, or 32 PS3s. Easy decision for any small company :) (at least up until now :P)

    Keep in mind Sony never sold clusters of PS3's as-is. They custom-built them for companies like medical research agencies and the US military. That is likely to continue. If you're a developer looking to use cell you probably weren't using a PS3 anyway. Any development house worth their salt as €8k worth of investment. Even if it is two or three dudes in a room, they can still buy a PS3, pull cell out of it and build a new system around it.
    _tony_ wrote: »
    Maybe this was a factor in the decision to stop OtherOS - Maybe not enough (any?) open source Cell development was happening on PS3 anymore - Sony looses money per unit sold, and in some cases, people buy them instead of a real Cell Blade. If companies buy a bunch of PS3s for development they probably buy no games either. So both IBM and Sony loose out, while at the same time OtherOS lets people try to hack the system. Simple decision there! :)

    I don't think the decision to remove otherOS was in any way influenced by this. It was purely down to hackers. I think you may be over-estimating Cell development, it really is utilised as a pure server-side number cruncher rather then a place to develop applications outside of that world.
    _tony_ wrote: »
    Another thing I hadn't thought of before - If someone decides to not upgrade, and stay using OtherOS/Cell development, then if their PS3 breaks...i guess Sony will refuse to repair without update? don't think they made any comments about this.

    Usually if your product breaks and you didn't bother doing an update, any company will tell you to get lost!


  • #120
    eddhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭eddhorse


    Usually if your product breaks and you didn't bother doing an update, any company will tell you to get lost!

    Agreed, plus the people that are using the PS3 for Cell development/research etc surely arent using the PSN so they can leave the firmware as is. (And dont call me Shirley).


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  • #121
    Varik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,518 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    mixednuts wrote: »
    Same cost and overhead would have been built into the RRP from the PS3 Phat ... so where is the compensation for removal of a feature that they have costed and charged the end user for ?

    Dont tell me again about how little use the Other OS got so removal is not an issue .
    Not an issue for the majority , but the minority have also spent good money on a machine which has now been doctored .(post purchase)


    the ps3 made a loss of over $240 on each unit they did not add anything to the price or include any charge for the otherOS. Sony just decided how much they were willing to lose when charging less than it was worth.

    the otherOS was put on the ps3 as a deal/favour to IBM to help programmers, none of you money went to adding it to the ps3.


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