What is "low paid"?

The_Honeybadger · 31-03-2010 11:57AM

I can't consider somebody on 35k to be low paid, perhaps if they have a giant mortgage and family etc, but that comes down to lifestyle choices. My own personal opinion is anything under 25k or so, even though a single person with no major financial commitments and a bit of common sense could easily survive on this. We have become accustomed to a lifestyle that we fooled ourselves into thinking we deserved because "sure isn't the country awash with money". I have a feeling there will be envious glances thrown the way of anybody earning 35k in future, new graduates will find that unemployment and other factors are driving down wages and it will become harder to get up to this figure, that is why we need to widen the tax net and get everybody paying tax. SW is also a problem in that for a family man it simply makes no sense whatsoever to come off the dole and take up a job for less than 40-50k, is there a country anywhere else in the world where a situation like this exists? It seems unbelievable.

Gurgle · 31-03-2010 11:58AM

Good grief, once the words 'professional' and 'truck driver' appear in a sentence together theres just no fcuking point. It may be stressful and hard work, it may even be difficult to get the license but it is not a trade, a profession or a 'skilled' job.

donkey balls · 31-03-2010 12:12PM

danman wrote: »

I have to agree with the poster above you. And no disrespect, but driving a truck wouldn't seem to me to me to be a skilled job. You would only need to know how to drive.

The only problem with this, is I know that truck driving can involve a lot of manual labour.
I do think anyone who's job involves manual labour does deserve a certain premium over someone in an unskilled job that sits at a desk.

That's only my personal opinion.

it is very easy for some one who has never driven a truck to say that all you do is steer the thing,i have my licence over 13 years and probely cost in old money £3000 you then have licences for carrying dangerous
goods add another 1000e.
also a truck costs about 100k and depending on the trailer upto 80k,also as a driver you plan ahead scanning your mirrors every few secs looking at the traffic ahead etc.
you also have drivers hours to contend with the roadworthy of the truck if stopped by the Gardai/RSA you could lose your licence in one go. http://www.rsa.ie/Home/upload/File/NEW_PENPOINTS_CHART_APL09.pdf

i should also piont out that the majority of goods exports/imports are moved by HGV through out ireland.

jinghong · 31-03-2010 12:12PM

30k should be more than enough for a family to live comfortably on. A little thought about budgeting and 'lifestlye' design should do the trick. Outside dublin far easier to achieve this.

We are planning travelling europe for 3 months in a camper and another 3 months in australia, remaining 6 months in Ireland. Total income required for 2 of us and child is 23k which will be met one of us working part time

Not so long ago I went travelling for the year, did australia (bought a car and drove 30k km around it), burma, thailand, china, india, laos, and newzealand. Total cost for 2 people living like kings: 15k

Don't have your thoughts formed by union propaganda and conventional wisdom

Starting point is this excellent budget planner in google docs https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tJgFt0-wep-cYxIwQ6SBnUQ

irishh_bob · 31-03-2010 12:29PM

mickeyk wrote: »

I can't consider somebody on 35k to be low paid, perhaps if they have a giant mortgage and family etc, but that comes down to lifestyle choices. My own personal opinion is anything under 25k or so, even though a single person with no major financial commitments and a bit of common sense could easily survive on this. We have become accustomed to a lifestyle that we fooled ourselves into thinking we deserved because "sure isn't the country awash with money". I have a feeling there will be envious glances thrown the way of anybody earning 35k in future, new graduates will find that unemployment and other factors are driving down wages and it will become harder to get up to this figure, that is why we need to widen the tax net and get everybody paying tax. SW is also a problem in that for a family man it simply makes no sense whatsoever to come off the dole and take up a job for less than 40-50k, is there a country anywhere else in the world where a situation like this exists? It seems unbelievable.

my sister having recently qualified as a solicitor , negotiated a salary of 31 k per year , a good deal less than what a nurse starts off on and not much more than a clerical officer

The_Honeybadger · 31-03-2010 12:36PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

my sister having recently qualified as a solicitor , negotiated a salary of 31 k per year , a good deal less than what a nurse starts off on and not much more than a clerical officer

From what I hear she is lucky, I know one experienced solicitor who is now on the dole for over a year. There is actually a thread about private sector wages being driven down on this forum. Starting salaries are definately lower now in many professions.

31-03-2010 01:13PM

jinghong wrote: »

30k should be more than enough for a family to live comfortably on. A little thought about budgeting and 'lifestlye' design should do the trick. Outside dublin far easier to achieve this.

We are planning travelling europe for 3 months in a camper and another 3 months in australia, remaining 6 months in Ireland. Total income required for 2 of us and child is 23k which will be met one of us working part time

Not so long ago I went travelling for the year, did australia (bought a car and drove 30k km around it), burma, thailand, china, india, laos, and newzealand. Total cost for 2 people living like kings: 15k

Don't have your thoughts formed by union propaganda and conventional wisdom

Starting point is this excellent budget planner in google docs https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tJgFt0-wep-cYxIwQ6SBnUQ

A family, lets say two adults and two children. How is €30K/annum to provide a comfortable living to them ? Mortgage or rent of €800 month and bills of €200 a month for heating, electricity, refuse charges. That leaves €1500 a month to live on, most families would require a car also. I have also omitted to pay any PRSI or tax/levee of any description. Are you for real ??

The_Honeybadger · 31-03-2010 02:06PM

RoverJames wrote: »

A family, lets say two adults and two children. How is €30K/annum to provide a comfortable living to them ? Mortgage or rent of €800 month and bills of €200 a month for heating, electricity, refuse charges. That leaves €1500 a month to live on, most families would require a car also. I have also omitted to pay any PRSI or tax/levee of any description. Are you for real ??

The family you quote would take home 2,272 monthly (taxcalc.eu), so take out the major expenses.

rent / mortgage 800
utilities 300
food 600
insurance 50
Fuel 150

Total 1900
-childrens allowance 300
1600

I have left off large once off expenses like changing the car every 5 years or so. That leaves 672 euro monthly disposable income, if anybody wants to dispute the figures then ok, we all know other expenses crop up all the time, hardly comfortable, but possible to live on 30k I would say.

31-03-2010 02:21PM

RoverJames wrote: »

How is €30K/annum to provide a comfortable living to them ?

mickeyk wrote: »

hardly comfortable, but possible to live on 30k I would say.

Gurgle · 31-03-2010 04:47PM

mickeyk wrote: »

hardly comfortable, but possible to live on 30k I would say.

Possible, yes.
But its a long long way from comfortable.

Lets also assume the kids don't have birthdays, after school activities, or christmas, won't be going to college. Schools don't send a bill every 3 weeks for computers, photocopying, books, copies, paint, crayons.

Nobody ever gets sick, or goes to the dentist. Certainly a consultant is out of the question.

Holidays? No chance.

Clothes are forever, they grow with the child. Shoes are passed down through generations.

Your car doesn't need servicing, NCT or road tax.

Anyone want to work out what the same family of 4 would get on the dole, taking into account all the freebies from TV license to medical card?

ZYX · 31-03-2010 05:40PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Nobody ever gets sick, or goes to the dentist. Certainly a consultant is out of the question.

Slightly off the point but something that always irritates me. Attendace with a consultant is free whether you have a medical card or not.

murphaph · 31-03-2010 06:11PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Lets also assume the kids don't have birthdays, after school activities, or christmas, won't be going to college. Schools don't send a bill every 3 weeks for computers, photocopying, books, copies, paint, crayons.

That's what happens when the dept. of Education's budget goes on teachers' wages (77% I believe).

Gurgle wrote: »

Clothes are forever, they grow with the child. Shoes are passed down through generations.

Children grow fast. Here in berlin it is quite common for people to hand on their children's clothes and shoes, socks, underwear, everything really to a friend with a baby/child coming into that age. People tend to be less sentimantal about such things here and are in no rush to go out and buy new things for a baby they know will have outgrown it's clothes in a matter of weeks. AFAICR this is the way it used to be in Ireland before we got notions of our "wealth".

Gurgle wrote: »

Your car doesn't need servicing, NCT or road tax.

Back in the 80's, most men would be well able to service their own vehicle (I say vehicle because Honda 50's were popular and many had only shank's mare for transport)

Gurgle wrote: »

Anyone want to work out what the same family of 4 would get on the dole, taking into account all the freebies from TV license to medical card?

Comparing everything to the dole only goes to prove one thing...Social Welfare benefits are too high and have been for some time.

A certain amount of "getting back to basics" needs to happen in Ireland.

Mister men · 31-03-2010 06:21PM

That's half the problem with this country. People view a wage of 30k a year as a low wage. Wish i earned that much.

dvpower · 31-03-2010 06:50PM

EF wrote: »

A CO earning 35,000 will have to have worked for 12 years and they wont get to 36,700 before they work 15 years. I agree it is not a bad wage, but after 15 years full time work I think it is reasonable to expect to be on a half decent wage if you are any good at your job and have put in the effort.

If you're good at your job and have put in the effort, you'd have made EO in 15 years.

Gurgle · 31-03-2010 07:54PM

ZYX wrote: »

Slightly off the point but something that always irritates me. Attendace with a consultant is free whether you have a medical card or not.

Sure, if you're willing to wait 2 to 3 years.
Going privately, you will be lucky to see one within 6 months.
Yes, I've been there.

Gurgle · 31-03-2010 08:00PM

murphaph wrote: »

That's what happens when the dept. of Education's budget goes on teachers' wages (77% I believe).

Nice spin.

The rest...

Here in berlin it is quite common for people to hand on their children's clothes and shoes, socks, underwear, everything really to a friend with a baby/child coming into that age...

Back in the 80's, most men would be well able to service their own vehicle...

Comparing everything to the dole only goes to prove one thing...Social Welfare benefits are too high and have been for some time.

A certain amount of "getting back to basics" needs to happen in Ireland.

Couldn't agree more.

But there are still a lot of unavoidable costs involved in raising a family, I sincerely doubt you could do it comfortably on €30k in Berlin either.

changes · 31-03-2010 09:08PM

cson wrote: »

To qualify this, I wouldn't rate clerical work as skilled - answering phones, typing letters and inputting data for the most part could be taught to anyone within 2-3 days in my opinion.

There are not that many jobs in the PS that could be taught to someone in 2 or 3 days. Its funny that people think all CO's do is photocopy, stamp forms or answer phone. There are CO's in very busy offices working on software systems where errors can be very costly and wreak havoc. To say they have no responsibility is just not true.

It would be interesting to see a new CO go into the salaries dept of a busy hospital or the accounts dept and leave them to their own devices after 2 or 3 days.

Liam Byrne · 01-04-2010 12:19AM

Gurgle wrote: »

But there are still a lot of unavoidable costs involved in raising a family

But isn't having a family as much of a choice as having a foreign holiday or buying a new car ?

And therefore "avoidable" in itself ?

nesf · 01-04-2010 12:26AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But isn't having a family as much of a choice as having a foreign holiday or buying a new car ?

And therefore "avoidable" in itself ?

You can't accidentally find yourself skiing in the Alps or sunning yourself in the Costa del Sol. Even while taking precautions you can still end up with a child you know.

WalterMitty · 01-04-2010 05:55AM

nesf wrote: »

You can't accidentally find yourself skiing in the Alps or sunning yourself in the Costa del Sol. Even while taking precautions you can still end up with a child you know.

in nearly all cases it can be avoided if both partners are responsible.

murphaph · 01-04-2010 07:45AM

Gurgle wrote: »

But there are still a lot of unavoidable costs involved in raising a family, I sincerely doubt you could do it comfortably on €30k in Berlin either.

I think you could tbh, but it would be dependent on how many kids! A single child or even 2 children should be comfortable on that sort of money in Berlin. Then again, most people don't run a car as the benefit of living in a large city with a dense population, means public transport is more than adequate for when one even needs to leave one's borough. The kindergartens and schools are all within walking distance of everyone and if not it's generally quite safe for even young children to travel on the train/bus here without fear.

Of course, Germans pay more tax and their public sector is paid less, so more services are provided that would cost money from your pocket in Ireland (childcare for example is heavily subsidised).

Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't done the sums yet and tbh I won't be, we want kids and if we have to scrimp by a bit to have them, then that's part of life. If people genuinely feel they can't afford kids, they should make sure they don't have them (and there are ways to be 99.9% sure you don't).

The_Honeybadger · 01-04-2010 09:54AM

murphaph wrote: »

I think you could tbh, but it would be dependent on how many kids! A single child or even 2 children should be comfortable on that sort of money in Berlin. Then again, most people don't run a car as the benefit of living in a large city with a dense population, means public transport is more than adequate for when one even needs to leave one's borough. The kindergartens and schools are all within walking distance of everyone and if not it's generally quite safe for even young children to travel on the train/bus here without fear.

Of course, Germans pay more tax and their public sector is paid less, so more services are provided that would cost money from your pocket in Ireland (childcare for example is heavily subsidised).

Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't done the sums yet and tbh I won't be, we want kids and if we have to scrimp by a bit to have them, then that's part of life. If people genuinely feel they can't afford kids, they should make sure they don't have them (and there are ways to be 99.9% sure you don't).

I doubt you are wrong, and perhaps we should be looking at the German tax model as something to emulate, childcare costs are outrageous in this country and our dependence on consumer taxes have cost us dearly now that we are in recession.

Believe it or not there are couples who have children quite deliberately to avail of the goodies that our SW system provides, rent supplement, CA and JA as well as single mothers payment in some cases :eek:

WalterMitty · 01-04-2010 05:30PM

murphaph wrote: »

I think you could tbh, but it would be dependent on how many kids! A single child or even 2 children should be comfortable on that sort of money in Berlin. Then again, most people don't run a car as the benefit of living in a large city with a dense population, means public transport is more than adequate for when one even needs to leave one's borough. The kindergartens and schools are all within walking distance of everyone and if not it's generally quite safe for even young children to travel on the train/bus here without fear.

Of course, Germans pay more tax and their public sector is paid less, so more services are provided that would cost money from your pocket in Ireland (childcare for example is heavily subsidised).

Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't done the sums yet and tbh I won't be, we want kids and if we have to scrimp by a bit to have them, then that's part of life. If people genuinely feel they can't afford kids, they should make sure they don't have them (and there are ways to be 99.9% sure you don't).

Yeah the unions always claim to want a scandinavian/norhern european style system here BUT can you imagine them trying to convince their PS members that in scandinavia public servants get a whole let less than here and pay more tax! Cost of living is similar too so no argument there. The PS workers we can safely say ,dont want scandinavian model judging by how hard they seem to want to keep such high levels of bubble era of pay. Shows how selfish they are, GNP is down 20% and they want to take a lot less than 20% hit in their pay and pensions and ignore things like falling cost of living which actually cancels out a fair bit of cuts.

Tail Wagger · 01-04-2010 05:35PM

pietromas wrote: »

Everybody else seems to know because they are always talking about the "low paid" workers. I want to know so I can join in the conversation. Is it different in the public and private sectors?

Low pay means, not being able to survive on what your earning from week to week. When your costs to live from week to week fall short... when you can't afford to buy your weekly shop, in the local Supermarket.
When you are eating soup and potatoes for your dinner 7 days a week.
When you can't let your kids go to school because you can't afford to buy their school uniforms/books/sports wear etc.
When you can't give your children pocket money on the weekends,
When you can't afford to purchase a bag of coal to heat your home,
When you go to the local butchers looking for breast of mutton to make a stew for your Sunday dinner,
When the Banks are sending you letters twice a week asking you to pay back your overdraft immediately.
When the Gas Board are threatening to cut off your Gas/light.
When the finance Company are looking for the very chairs your sitting on..

If I have forgotten anything else, I'm sure someone else will enlighten you...
hope this might help you to define your enquiry.

sceptre · 01-04-2010 06:40PM

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Low pay means, not being able to survive on what your earning from week to week. When your costs to live from week to week fall short... when you can't afford to buy your weekly shop, in the local Supermarket.
When you are eating soup and potatoes for your dinner 7 days a week.
When you can't let your kids go to school because you can't afford to buy their school uniforms/books/sports wear etc.
When you can't give your children pocket money on the weekends,
When you can't afford to purchase a bag of coal to heat your home,
When you go to the local butchers looking for breast of mutton to make a stew for your Sunday dinner,
When the Banks are sending you letters twice a week asking you to pay back your overdraft immediately.
When the Gas Board are threatening to cut off your Gas/light.
When the finance Company are looking for the very chairs your sitting on..

If I have forgotten anything else, I'm sure someone else will enlighten you...
hope this might help you to define your enquiry.

I'd call that "poverty". Especially if you include "when you can't buy a new pair of shoes". "Low paid" is a little higher than that.

danman · 01-04-2010 06:57PM

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Low pay means, not being able to survive on what your earning from week to week. When your costs to live from week to week fall short... when you can't afford to buy your weekly shop, in the local Supermarket.
When you are eating soup and potatoes for your dinner 7 days a week.
When you can't let your kids go to school because you can't afford to buy their school uniforms/books/sports wear etc.
When you can't give your children pocket money on the weekends,
When you can't afford to purchase a bag of coal to heat your home,
When you go to the local butchers looking for breast of mutton to make a stew for your Sunday dinner,
When the Banks are sending you letters twice a week asking you to pay back your overdraft immediately.
When the Gas Board are threatening to cut off your Gas/light.
When the finance Company are looking for the very chairs your sitting on..

If I have forgotten anything else, I'm sure someone else will enlighten you...
hope this might help you to define your enquiry.

Even the minimum wage would leave you better off than that.
Unless you have too big of a mortgage.

irishh_bob · 01-04-2010 09:34PM

mickeyk wrote: »

From what I hear she is lucky, I know one experienced solicitor who is now on the dole for over a year. There is actually a thread about private sector wages being driven down on this forum. Starting salaries are definately lower now in many professions.

lucky , yes , but nurses and clerical officers have horse shoes up their asses

ei.sdraob · 01-04-2010 09:57PM

danman wrote: »

Unless you have too big of a mortgage.

nobody made this person sign the contract for too big a mortgage

in many cases this person faked their income in order to obtain more credit

01-04-2010 10:51PM

changes wrote: »

There are not that many jobs in the PS that could be taught to someone in 2 or 3 days. Its funny that people think all CO's do is photocopy, stamp forms or answer phone. There are CO's in very busy offices working on software systems where errors can be very costly and wreak havoc. To say they have no responsibility is just not true.

It would be interesting to see a new CO go into the salaries dept of a busy hospital or the accounts dept and leave them to their own devices after 2 or 3 days.

What about the folks in motor tax office and the parking fines place, that's hardly rocket science, are they not COs too ?

Pittens · 01-04-2010 11:07PM

The real answer to this question is simple: the bottom 90% is low paid. The top 10% is comfortable. The top 10% earn 90% of income.

The top 1% earn 90% of what the top 10% earn. And so on.

The other problem here is we measure PAYE wages for the average, which tend to ignore what the real rich earn in bonuses, contracts etc.

What is "low paid"?

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