The Ugly Sisters Thread - Bad Value Races

Condo131 · 30-03-2010 04:43PM #1

I've been thinking about this for some time, but RDunne's thread gave me the incentive to get the ball rolling, however I don't have a race to include myself as I avoid races that I think are bad value - I'll leave it up to others to name and shame.

I have a *BIG* problem with the pletora of new 'high price' races that have sprung up in the past year or so. It appears that most of these events are being organised by Limited Companies that have absolutely no connection with running or running organisations and the races appear to be primarily profit makers for the business in question.

Many of these races appear to be run over courses that no self-respecting club or athletics organistion would touch with a barge pole. These are well marketed events - AAI, in particular, and BHAA could take marketing lessons from these people! - but apart from the event itself, their contribution to sport appears to be virtually nil. Many are promoted as charity fundraisers but few details are ever published - I find that the genuine charity fundraisers are very up-front about the amount raised for charity.

The unfortunate thing about these business ventures is that they rely very heavily on unpaid volunteers to succeed. Many of the events have no AAI permit (shame on the AAI for not looking after their own backyard (I'm working in the background on rectifying that!))

Few of these events are on roads that are closed to traffic, saving them a fortune versus the Dublin and Cork Marathons - road closures cost an absolute fortune!

What do you guys think? Is it OK for people to organise events purely as a money making business, as opposed to those run by sports people for the good of the sport, with any excess cash raised being ploughed back into the sport?

robinph · 30-03-2010 04:47PM

Condo131 wrote: »

Many of the events have no AAI permit (shame on the AAI for not looking after their own backyard (I'm working in the background on rectifying that!))

Do the AAI publish a list of events that they have actually given a permit or whatever it is to? I've seen AAI mentioned at the bottom of various race flyers, but then hear from other places, usually on here, that the AAI had nothing to do with the event.

meathcountysec · 30-03-2010 04:54PM

robinph wrote: »

Do the AAI publish a list of events that they have actually given a permit or whatever it is to? I've seen AAI mentioned at the bottom of various race flyers, but then hear from other places, usually on here, that the AAI had nothing to do with the event.

AAI have recently been more proactive in this regard by at least including some permitted races (not sure if all) on their fixture calendar.

Regarding permits in general, you don't need a permit to organise a road race. Any Tom, Dick or Harriet, as can be seen with the number of unpermited events, can stage one.

AAI has no power or influence over whether these events can take place or not.

Condo131 · 30-03-2010 04:54PM

robinph wrote: »

Do the AAI publish a list of events that they have actually given a permit or whatever it is to? I've seen AAI mentioned at the bottom of various race flyers, but then hear from other places, usually on here, that the AAI had nothing to do with the event.

No they don't and that's one of the first things I've asked to be done. God knows I've been trying to get them to publish a decent calendar for years and, as per previous threads, there are major issues with the delay in granting permits. Imho, the AAI are doing themselves no favours in neglecting these areas as very few people know what races really have permits.

One of the suggestions I've made is to publish a calendar and have a column stating permit status, e.g., 'permit pending', permit granted' etc. As I indicated in the first post, the AAI have been remiss in this area and it's biting them in the butt now. Will they respond? Who knows?

Condo131 · 30-03-2010 05:00PM

meathcountysec wrote: »

AAI has no power or influence over whether these events can take place or not.

Therein lies the rub. Is the AAI going to be sidelined into a minor player in the running community, with these Companies creaming off huge profits - rumour has it that one of the events cleared over €100k last year!

Another issue is that many of these events are clashing with AAI permit events, being held on the same day, or the day before/after.

....and there are a lot more of these events being held this year.

robinph · 30-03-2010 05:04PM

If an event is claiming on their flyers that they have an AAI permit when they don't then what is the AAI doing about it. They should at the least be making some release about "We didn't give this race a permit" even if actually doing anything more down the legal route is too expensive to bother with.

donothoponpop · 30-03-2010 05:16PM

Condo131 wrote: »

What do you guys think? Is it OK for people to organise events purely as a money making business, as opposed to those run by sports people for the good of the sport, with any excess cash raised being ploughed back into the sport?

There has to be a place for privately-run races, but the blatant capitalism of many of the new events springing up would make you wonder. Over-enthuse about your event, charge a high entry fee, make a nod to "charity", and you're in business. In a recession, this model will eat itself quickly, and will take with it many disgruntled punters, unless some standards are kept.

If Boards can help champion better value-for-money, club races, via some sort of rating system, it might help money stay in athletics.

catweazle · 30-03-2010 05:29PM

I will get the ball rolling on this, ye are getting sidetracked above.

My favourite bugbear The Galway Bay 10k Charity Race 2009 = 60 euros

When I emailed Cancercare inquiring about this expensive price I told her I was happy to pay it if most of the money was going to Cancercare. I was informed that no the 60 euro fee was the charge the organiser was charging, anything that you donated above 60 euros would go to Cancercare. I said the organisers should hang their heads in shame screwing a charity with charges like that

I see now they have reduced their 10k fee to 45 euros for this year, all of it again I presume going to the organisers. This is for no closed off roads, I was told most of the marshalls were volunteers last year helping out the charity, a goody bag and T-shirt which was sponsored by Elverys.

I hope the organisers were at the Craughwell 10 mile last week and to see the spread put on by the club for less than half that price. They are filling their boots off a charity in my opinion.

Kissy Lips · 30-03-2010 07:19PM

Condo131 wrote: »

What do you guys think? Is it OK for people to organise events purely as a money making business, as opposed to those run by sports people for the good of the sport, with any excess cash raised being ploughed back into the sport?

Yes it's perfectly ok. I agree with you but they can do what they like, so Yes.

Also out of interest could name some of these races you are opposed to. Are you talking about the likes of Achill & Dingle half marathons for example?

dietryin · 30-03-2010 07:20PM

If I was to give out bad value for money it would have to be the Wexford Half Marathon 2009. Now that was very bad value and to boot the organiser was so rude to participants that it seemed hard to believe I actually put my hand in my pocket and paid to be so badly treated! Swore that when I finished I would never enter again...and I won't. I saw him at other races in the South East after that and instead of helping out he just stood back, hands in pockets and did nothing. Thought it very bad form as all races held around about usually involve the local clubs helping each other out with no problem!

kit3 · 30-03-2010 07:45PM

Kissy Lips wrote: »

Yes it's perfectly ok. I agree with you but they can do what they like, so Yes.

Also out of interest could name some of these races you are opposed to. Are you talking about the likes of Achill & Dingle half marathons for example?

Achill is steep at €60. However, they donated a total of €30,000 to local charities/community groups and their two sponsored charities last year - photos of presentations on website

Aimman · 30-03-2010 08:49PM

kit3 wrote: »

Achill is steep at €60. However, they donated a total of €30,000 to local charities/community groups and their two sponsored charities last year - photos of presentations on website

I'd be interested in Achill this year, but it is quite steep. I suppose you have to stay over the night before which adds to it, and I'd like to stay the night after for the craic, but at €60 for the race, it cuts into the budget.

Yet the Longford Marathon is €48.50 for the full and €43.50 for the half. And to rub salt into the wounds, the Galway City Marathon has set it's date smack bang on the same day, probably taking competitors from the Longford race.

I have read that the Galway race has to be on a particular date because it has to slot into the official race calendar for the Ultra race, but just ends up splitting the racing community on the day and thinning out the amount of people that participate. Opps, think i drifted off topic there. sorry.

Husavik · 30-03-2010 08:52PM

How about listing the events that people thought were good in 2009 with respect to how well they were organised and run and the not so good ones.

For my part I have only ran in two official races - the half and full Dublin marathons last year. Very enjoyable, well run and good value but as such don't have much to go on for this year. I was lining up the Wexford and Wicklow halves in preparation for the DCM this year and have noted dietryin's remarks.

So what races out there would people recommend for the rest of this year and absolutely not recommend.

Thanks.

robinph · 30-03-2010 09:00PM

We really need to figure out some rating system.

Husavik · 30-03-2010 09:01PM

Husavik wrote: »

How about listing the events that people thought were good in 2009 with respect to how well they were organised and run and the not so good ones.

For my part I have only ran in two official races - the half and full Dublin marathons last year. Very enjoyable, well run and good value but as such don't have much to go on for this year. I was lining up the Wexford and Wicklow halves in preparation for the DCM this year and have noted dietryin's remarks.

So what races out there would people recommend for the rest of this year and absolutely not recommend.

Thanks.

'Great value races' thread noted by rdunne.

eliwallach · 31-03-2010 09:49AM

Husavik wrote: »

'Great value races'.

Don't know if this has AAI permission (but most probably does), but the Dungarvan 10 mile organised by West Waterford AC has got to be the best value race in the country. The entry fee was so insignificant I can't even recall how much now (€20?).

For this you get a perfectly organised race (with a huge field), chip-timing, finisher tech t-shirt, legendary post race spread, showers, hospitality (and a sunny day in January

).

BHAA races are of course fantastic value for money.
Here in Cork most races have a token fee of €7 :eek: (€5 if your registered!!) with impeccable organisation, timing and post race refreshments.

But Dungarvan gets my nod for the best value for money

.

Think the Bay Run (while a lovely race) is more than a little steep at €50 :mad: (I know there is a cheaper registration fee, but you must enter before Christmas, or something ridiculous like that).

RoyMcC · 31-03-2010 09:59AM

robinph wrote: »

We really need to figure out some rating system.

Yep, we talked about this but it drifted away.

Krusty_Clown · 31-03-2010 10:18AM

I'm have no association with the association (pardon the pun) but, would I be right in saying that I could organize a race tomorrow, charge what I will, apply for an AAI permit, and then when handing out flyers, include the text "AAI permit pending" (have a sniff around the races in the Events forum). If you don't get an AAI permit, you're hardly going to go to the trouble of updating your literature (which has probably already been handed out). You might remove the text from your website, at which point the damage has already been done, and the mental association with the AAI has already been created.

The first AAI permit reform should be a 'guilty until proved innocent' process. Where no race can mention AAI permits until they actually have one. If they mention AAI permits without having been awarded one, then make it clear, that they absolutely will not receive an AAI permit.

dario28 · 31-03-2010 10:21AM

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

Some examples - Dingle & Conemmara

On the same day you can race Derry for 20....

RayCun · 31-03-2010 10:30AM

You could break it down into hard facts which should be available beforehand, and other things which are more subjective...

Race name?
Date?
Location?
Website?
Distance?
Measured how?
Cost?

Where does the money go? (local club, private company, set amount for charity)
AAI permit?
Chip timing?
Approx size of field
Flat or Hilly?
Laps or a single loop?

Starting bands? (Yes/Not necessary/Yes, but poorly policed/No, and there should be)
Clearly marked course (including distance markers)?
Does course contain chokepoints?
General organisation? (starting on time, no problems with numbers, good stewarding, medical personnel available)
Goody bag/food afterwards?

macinalli · 31-03-2010 10:45AM

dario28 wrote: »

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

Some examples - Dingle & Conemmara

On the same day you can race Derry for 20....

I see that there are 3 half marathons in May:
Kildare: €45
Wicklow: €40
Dundalk: €25

I have no link to any of the 3 but am looking for a race around then and will be going to Dundalk!

Just noticed: todays the last day for the €25 fee for Dundalk - goes up to €30 from tomorrow!

RoyMcC · 31-03-2010 10:47AM

dario28 wrote: »

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

Some examples - Dingle & Conemmara

On the same day you can race Derry for 20....

I believe that's too simplistic and takes no account of facilities provided and costs to the organiser. (Unfortunately organisers do themselves no favours by keeping costs information to themselves.) Conn for example will have a huge transport bill.

As robinph says we really ought to revive the idea of a ratings system, which was discussed previously. There is a good cross section of runners on here who can provide information/opinion. It just needs someone to formulate a simple system, with the mods support.

griffin100 · 31-03-2010 10:49AM

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

Then why do they continue to sell out? Why do we still pay these prices? We have no one to blame but ourselves.

If people stop paying ridiculous prices to enter races then the organisers will either have to reduce the prices or cancel the events. If you have an objection to running a race that makes money for an organising company or is too expensive then dont enter. For the most part I dont care who organises a race and how much money they make from it as long as its well run - Connemara is a good example, every year there are lots on people online whinging about the costs yet it continues to sell out well before the race date - having done the half last year I can say that whilst it was expensive it was worth it.

Whilst I will enter 'corporate' races and pay the higher prices if I think its worth it I think that locally run races are still the backbone of the athletics / tri calandar and I would hate to see a situation where most of the larger events are run by companies whose priority is to make money. I think the sport would be a lot poorer if we ended up in that situation which seems to be the way that the UK Tri calander has gone.

What I do strongly object to is the throwaway 'charity' label that organisers can put on a race as long as they are donating some unspecified amount.

In my limited experience:

Examples of well run locally organised good value races:

Dunsaughlan 10km - what can I say - fantastic is every respect
Tinryland Rockford Roof Tiles Run
Carrick On Suir Triathlon

Example of a well run 'expensive race': Connemara Marathon

Examples of poor value high price races:

Athlone triathlon - a money making day for waterways ireland
Wexford HM
Eireman
London Tri (ok not Irish but overpriced and bad value - the way a lot of Irish tri's are heading)

lecheile · 31-03-2010 10:54AM

This is an issue that I'm really torn between the two arguments.

The capitalist in me encourages free enterprise and risk-taking associated with commercial events that are well promoted, highly priced and continue to attract many thousands of runners.
The club member in my sees the time and effort invested, the length and breadth of the country, by volunteers trying to run, fund and develop athletics for all to enjoy.

My difficulty with, what appears to be a fast growing number of, 'commercial' events is where they

Do not make public the nature of the contribution to the designated charity
Misrepresent the status of the AAI permit, and even when AAI permit has been received there is nothing at all given back to athletics (save the meagre fee)
Declare a course as being accurately measured when it is clearly not

I believe that the AAI permit system (which has its faults and needs overhauling – don’t get me started!!) could have a role to play in helping to ensure that these 'commercial' events are encouraged to contribute to the development of Athletics in Ireland.

For many, the existence or not of an AAI permit is not be a factor in deciding whether they take part in a race, the rules associated with AAI members not competing in non AAI affiliated events is rarely applied. If you could turn this around and ensure that race organisers understood the value of an AAI permit (because you are not likely to get many AAI members without it) you can then start leveraging that value.

It could be as simple as applying an AAI levy for each participant of an event (make it a percentage, so that high price commercial events contribute more) to be given to the local AAI County Board (where the permit will be granted). In such a scenario the money gets invested back into the local athletics development and local county boards and clubs could take a more proactive (as it will be revenue generating) approach to supporting and developing races in the county.

RayCun · 31-03-2010 11:06AM

dario28 wrote: »

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

I wouldn't mind that, if I knew that the race was well-organised and the money was going to support local clubs and/or charities.
20 euro would be a rip-off for a badly-run, for-profit event.

tunney · 31-03-2010 11:11AM

griffin100 wrote: »

Then why do they continue to sell out? Why do we still pay these prices? We have no one to blame but ourselves.

If people stop paying ridiculous prices to enter races then the organisers will either have to reduce the prices or cancel the events. If you have an objection to running a race that makes money for an organising company or is too expensive then dont enter. For the most part I dont care who organises a race and how much money they make from it as long as its well run - Connemara is a good example, every year there are lots on people online whinging about the costs yet it continues to sell out well before the race date - having done the half last year I can say that whilst it was expensive it was worth it.

Whilst I will enter 'corporate' races and pay the higher prices if I think its worth it I think that locally run races are still the backbone of the athletics / tri calandar and I would hate to see a situation where most of the larger events are run by companies whose priority is to make money. I think the sport would be a lot poorer if we ended up in that situation which seems to be the way that the UK Tri calander has gone.

What I do strongly object to is the throwaway 'charity' label that organisers can put on a race as long as they are donating some unspecified amount.

In my limited experience:

Examples of well run locally organised good value races:
Dunsaughlan 10km - what can I say - fantastic is every respect

Tinryland Rockford Roof Tiles Run

Carrick On Suir Triathlon

Example of a well run 'expensive race': Connemara Marathon

Examples of poor value high price races:
Athlone triathlon - a money making day for waterways ireland

Wexford HM

Eireman

London Tri (ok not Irish but overpriced and bad value - the way a lot of Irish tri's are heading)

I'm biting my tongue on sh!te value, sh!t run races but I ahve to correct the above.

Athlone is not run by Waterways Ireland and afaik Athlone does not give money to Waterways Ireland but rather the other way around. Waterways Ireland are to be commended for the sponsroship of races and their promotion of the use of the lakes and rivers of Ireland. Some of which are prestine and massively under utilised.

robinph · 31-03-2010 11:13AM

RoyMcC wrote: »

As robinph says we really ought to revive the idea of a ratings system, which was discussed previously. There is a good cross section of runners on here who can provide information/opinion. It just needs someone to formulate a simple system, with the mods support.

Unfortunately, with the vBulletin system, we are limited to having one poll per thread so would only be able to have an overall rating out of 5/10/whatever and could not give a rating out of 5 for course and another out of 5 for goodie bag or anything along those lines.

I'd not want to be coming up with any ideas that would be increasing the mod workload, but would something along the lines of this be workable and actually give a fairer system of rating:

Poll out of 5 or 10 for overall opinion of race.
You only vote in the poll though if you also post in that thread, or the poll must be public, so that we kind of limit the voting to people that have actually done that race.
One post per person, so it remains a rating thread and not a ranting thread or chatting about results thread.
Each poster gives a rating out of 5 for the separate area like course, goodie bag, price ,and their overall mark out of X in their post.
After X months after the race the thread is locked and the separate scores averaged and wiki'ed.

Anything else? What won't work? What will be too much hassle for the mods?

griffin100 · 31-03-2010 11:43AM

Athlone is not run by Waterways Ireland and afaik Athlone does not give money to Waterways Ireland but rather the other way around. Waterways Ireland are to be commended for the sponsroship of races and their promotion of the use of the lakes and rivers of Ireland. Some of which are prestine and massively under utilised.

My mistake

. I still think its an overpriced poorly run event based on my experiences of last year.

RoyMcC · 31-03-2010 12:28PM

robinph wrote: »

Unfortunately, with the vBulletin system, we are limited to having one poll per thread so would only be able to have an overall rating out of 5/10/whatever and could not give a rating out of 5 for course and another out of 5 for goodie bag or anything along those lines.

I'd not want to be coming up with any ideas that would be increasing the mod workload, but would something along the lines of this be workable and actually give a fairer system of rating:

Poll out of 5 or 10 for overall opinion of race.
You only vote in the poll though if you also post in that thread, or the poll must be public, so that we kind of limit the voting to people that have actually done that race.
One post per person, so it remains a rating thread and not a ranting thread or chatting about results thread.
Each poster gives a rating out of 5 for the separate area like course, goodie bag, price ,and their overall mark out of X in their post.
After X months after the race the thread is locked and the separate scores averaged and wiki'ed.

Anything else? What won't work? What will be too much hassle for the mods?

So it's not a poll as such, but a thread? Might work if people work to the same format and not start inventing their own categories

Unashamedly cribbing from Runner's World their contributers vote out of 10 on
Overall score
Would you do it again
Scenery
PB potential
Atmosphere
Organisation
Value
Beginner-friendliness

Not saying we need to replicate that but

How about we try it for (say) the Conn Half as that should get decent feedback.

robinph · 31-03-2010 12:40PM

RoyMcC wrote: »

So it's not a poll as such, but a thread? Might work if people work to the same format and not start inventing their own categories

Unashamedly cribbing from Runner's World their contributers vote out of 10 on
Overall score
Would you do it again
Scenery
PB potential
Atmosphere
Organisation
Value
Beginner-friendliness

Not saying we need to replicate that but

How about we try it for (say) the Conn Half as that should get decent feedback.

Well as the poll options are limited it does restrict us, but we can make use of the poll options for just giving an overall score. I think it does need to be policed to prevent it going off topic and would need to be "one runner, one post" and you should only post following something like that format of ratings areas you've listed. Discussing the actual race should be a separate thread I think, which we already have for each race anyway.

31-03-2010 12:51PM

Dingle half marathon was a particular rip-off at €65 and can't see any evidence of any of that going to charity. I'd say that the organiser did very well out of that one.

The Ugly Sisters Thread - Bad Value Races

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