The Ugly Sisters Thread - Bad Value Races

Condo131

I've been thinking about this for some time, but RDunne's thread gave me the incentive to get the ball rolling, however I don't have a race to include myself as I avoid races that I think are bad value - I'll leave it up to others to name and shame.

I have a *BIG* problem with the pletora of new 'high price' races that have sprung up in the past year or so. It appears that most of these events are being organised by Limited Companies that have absolutely no connection with running or running organisations and the races appear to be primarily profit makers for the business in question.

Many of these races appear to be run over courses that no self-respecting club or athletics organistion would touch with a barge pole. These are well marketed events - AAI, in particular, and BHAA could take marketing lessons from these people! - but apart from the event itself, their contribution to sport appears to be virtually nil. Many are promoted as charity fundraisers but few details are ever published - I find that the genuine charity fundraisers are very up-front about the amount raised for charity.

The unfortunate thing about these business ventures is that they rely very heavily on unpaid volunteers to succeed. Many of the events have no AAI permit (shame on the AAI for not looking after their own backyard (I'm working in the background on rectifying that!))

Few of these events are on roads that are closed to traffic, saving them a fortune versus the Dublin and Cork Marathons - road closures cost an absolute fortune!

What do you guys think? Is it OK for people to organise events purely as a money making business, as opposed to those run by sports people for the good of the sport, with any excess cash raised being ploughed back into the sport?

robinph

Condo131 wrote: »

Many of the events have no AAI permit (shame on the AAI for not looking after their own backyard (I'm working in the background on rectifying that!))

Do the AAI publish a list of events that they have actually given a permit or whatever it is to? I've seen AAI mentioned at the bottom of various race flyers, but then hear from other places, usually on here, that the AAI had nothing to do with the event.

meathcountysec

robinph wrote: »

Do the AAI publish a list of events that they have actually given a permit or whatever it is to? I've seen AAI mentioned at the bottom of various race flyers, but then hear from other places, usually on here, that the AAI had nothing to do with the event.

AAI have recently been more proactive in this regard by at least including some permitted races (not sure if all) on their fixture calendar.

Regarding permits in general, you don't need a permit to organise a road race. Any Tom, Dick or Harriet, as can be seen with the number of unpermited events, can stage one.

AAI has no power or influence over whether these events can take place or not.

Condo131

robinph wrote: »

Do the AAI publish a list of events that they have actually given a permit or whatever it is to? I've seen AAI mentioned at the bottom of various race flyers, but then hear from other places, usually on here, that the AAI had nothing to do with the event.

No they don't and that's one of the first things I've asked to be done. God knows I've been trying to get them to publish a decent calendar for years and, as per previous threads, there are major issues with the delay in granting permits. Imho, the AAI are doing themselves no favours in neglecting these areas as very few people know what races really have permits.

One of the suggestions I've made is to publish a calendar and have a column stating permit status, e.g., 'permit pending', permit granted' etc. As I indicated in the first post, the AAI have been remiss in this area and it's biting them in the butt now. Will they respond? Who knows?

Condo131

meathcountysec wrote: »

AAI has no power or influence over whether these events can take place or not.

Therein lies the rub. Is the AAI going to be sidelined into a minor player in the running community, with these Companies creaming off huge profits - rumour has it that one of the events cleared over €100k last year!

Another issue is that many of these events are clashing with AAI permit events, being held on the same day, or the day before/after.

....and there are a lot more of these events being held this year.

robinph

If an event is claiming on their flyers that they have an AAI permit when they don't then what is the AAI doing about it. They should at the least be making some release about "We didn't give this race a permit" even if actually doing anything more down the legal route is too expensive to bother with.

donothoponpop

Condo131 wrote: »

What do you guys think? Is it OK for people to organise events purely as a money making business, as opposed to those run by sports people for the good of the sport, with any excess cash raised being ploughed back into the sport?

There has to be a place for privately-run races, but the blatant capitalism of many of the new events springing up would make you wonder. Over-enthuse about your event, charge a high entry fee, make a nod to "charity", and you're in business. In a recession, this model will eat itself quickly, and will take with it many disgruntled punters, unless some standards are kept.

If Boards can help champion better value-for-money, club races, via some sort of rating system, it might help money stay in athletics.

catweazle

I will get the ball rolling on this, ye are getting sidetracked above.

My favourite bugbear The Galway Bay 10k Charity Race 2009 = 60 euros

When I emailed Cancercare inquiring about this expensive price I told her I was happy to pay it if most of the money was going to Cancercare. I was informed that no the 60 euro fee was the charge the organiser was charging, anything that you donated above 60 euros would go to Cancercare. I said the organisers should hang their heads in shame screwing a charity with charges like that

I see now they have reduced their 10k fee to 45 euros for this year, all of it again I presume going to the organisers. This is for no closed off roads, I was told most of the marshalls were volunteers last year helping out the charity, a goody bag and T-shirt which was sponsored by Elverys.

I hope the organisers were at the Craughwell 10 mile last week and to see the spread put on by the club for less than half that price. They are filling their boots off a charity in my opinion.

Kissy Lips

Condo131 wrote: »

What do you guys think? Is it OK for people to organise events purely as a money making business, as opposed to those run by sports people for the good of the sport, with any excess cash raised being ploughed back into the sport?

Yes it's perfectly ok. I agree with you but they can do what they like, so Yes.

Also out of interest could name some of these races you are opposed to. Are you talking about the likes of Achill & Dingle half marathons for example?

dietryin

If I was to give out bad value for money it would have to be the Wexford Half Marathon 2009. Now that was very bad value and to boot the organiser was so rude to participants that it seemed hard to believe I actually put my hand in my pocket and paid to be so badly treated! Swore that when I finished I would never enter again...and I won't. I saw him at other races in the South East after that and instead of helping out he just stood back, hands in pockets and did nothing. Thought it very bad form as all races held around about usually involve the local clubs helping each other out with no problem!

kit3

Kissy Lips wrote: »

Yes it's perfectly ok. I agree with you but they can do what they like, so Yes.

Also out of interest could name some of these races you are opposed to. Are you talking about the likes of Achill & Dingle half marathons for example?

Achill is steep at €60. However, they donated a total of €30,000 to local charities/community groups and their two sponsored charities last year - photos of presentations on website

Aimman

kit3 wrote: »

Achill is steep at €60. However, they donated a total of €30,000 to local charities/community groups and their two sponsored charities last year - photos of presentations on website

I'd be interested in Achill this year, but it is quite steep. I suppose you have to stay over the night before which adds to it, and I'd like to stay the night after for the craic, but at €60 for the race, it cuts into the budget.

Yet the Longford Marathon is €48.50 for the full and €43.50 for the half. And to rub salt into the wounds, the Galway City Marathon has set it's date smack bang on the same day, probably taking competitors from the Longford race.

I have read that the Galway race has to be on a particular date because it has to slot into the official race calendar for the Ultra race, but just ends up splitting the racing community on the day and thinning out the amount of people that participate. Opps, think i drifted off topic there. sorry.

Husavik

How about listing the events that people thought were good in 2009 with respect to how well they were organised and run and the not so good ones.

For my part I have only ran in two official races - the half and full Dublin marathons last year. Very enjoyable, well run and good value but as such don't have much to go on for this year. I was lining up the Wexford and Wicklow halves in preparation for the DCM this year and have noted dietryin's remarks.

So what races out there would people recommend for the rest of this year and absolutely not recommend.

Thanks.

robinph

We really need to figure out some rating system.

Husavik

Husavik wrote: »

How about listing the events that people thought were good in 2009 with respect to how well they were organised and run and the not so good ones.

For my part I have only ran in two official races - the half and full Dublin marathons last year. Very enjoyable, well run and good value but as such don't have much to go on for this year. I was lining up the Wexford and Wicklow halves in preparation for the DCM this year and have noted dietryin's remarks.

So what races out there would people recommend for the rest of this year and absolutely not recommend.

Thanks.

'Great value races' thread noted by rdunne.

eliwallach

Husavik wrote: »

'Great value races'.

Don't know if this has AAI permission (but most probably does), but the Dungarvan 10 mile organised by West Waterford AC has got to be the best value race in the country. The entry fee was so insignificant I can't even recall how much now (€20?).

For this you get a perfectly organised race (with a huge field), chip-timing, finisher tech t-shirt, legendary post race spread, showers, hospitality (and a sunny day in January ).

BHAA races are of course fantastic value for money.
Here in Cork most races have a token fee of €7 :eek: (€5 if your registered!!) with impeccable organisation, timing and post race refreshments.

But Dungarvan gets my nod for the best value for money .

Think the Bay Run (while a lovely race) is more than a little steep at €50 :mad: (I know there is a cheaper registration fee, but you must enter before Christmas, or something ridiculous like that).

RoyMcC

robinph wrote: »

We really need to figure out some rating system.

Yep, we talked about this but it drifted away.

Krusty_Clown

I'm have no association with the association (pardon the pun) but, would I be right in saying that I could organize a race tomorrow, charge what I will, apply for an AAI permit, and then when handing out flyers, include the text "AAI permit pending" (have a sniff around the races in the Events forum). If you don't get an AAI permit, you're hardly going to go to the trouble of updating your literature (which has probably already been handed out). You might remove the text from your website, at which point the damage has already been done, and the mental association with the AAI has already been created.

The first AAI permit reform should be a 'guilty until proved innocent' process. Where no race can mention AAI permits until they actually have one. If they mention AAI permits without having been awarded one, then make it clear, that they absolutely will not receive an AAI permit.

dario28

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

Some examples - Dingle & Conemmara

On the same day you can race Derry for 20....

RayCun

You could break it down into hard facts which should be available beforehand, and other things which are more subjective...

Race name?
Date?
Location?
Website?
Distance?
Measured how?
Cost?

Where does the money go? (local club, private company, set amount for charity)
AAI permit?
Chip timing?
Approx size of field
Flat or Hilly?
Laps or a single loop?

Starting bands? (Yes/Not necessary/Yes, but poorly policed/No, and there should be)
Clearly marked course (including distance markers)?
Does course contain chokepoints?
General organisation? (starting on time, no problems with numbers, good stewarding, medical personnel available)
Goody bag/food afterwards?

macinalli

dario28 wrote: »

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

Some examples - Dingle & Conemmara

On the same day you can race Derry for 20....

I see that there are 3 half marathons in May:
Kildare: €45
Wicklow: €40
Dundalk: €25

I have no link to any of the 3 but am looking for a race around then and will be going to Dundalk!

Just noticed: todays the last day for the €25 fee for Dundalk - goes up to €30 from tomorrow!

RoyMcC

dario28 wrote: »

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

Some examples - Dingle & Conemmara

On the same day you can race Derry for 20....

I believe that's too simplistic and takes no account of facilities provided and costs to the organiser. (Unfortunately organisers do themselves no favours by keeping costs information to themselves.) Conn for example will have a huge transport bill.

As robinph says we really ought to revive the idea of a ratings system, which was discussed previously. There is a good cross section of runners on here who can provide information/opinion. It just needs someone to formulate a simple system, with the mods support.

griffin100

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

Then why do they continue to sell out? Why do we still pay these prices? We have no one to blame but ourselves.

If people stop paying ridiculous prices to enter races then the organisers will either have to reduce the prices or cancel the events. If you have an objection to running a race that makes money for an organising company or is too expensive then dont enter. For the most part I dont care who organises a race and how much money they make from it as long as its well run - Connemara is a good example, every year there are lots on people online whinging about the costs yet it continues to sell out well before the race date - having done the half last year I can say that whilst it was expensive it was worth it.

Whilst I will enter 'corporate' races and pay the higher prices if I think its worth it I think that locally run races are still the backbone of the athletics / tri calandar and I would hate to see a situation where most of the larger events are run by companies whose priority is to make money. I think the sport would be a lot poorer if we ended up in that situation which seems to be the way that the UK Tri calander has gone.

What I do strongly object to is the throwaway 'charity' label that organisers can put on a race as long as they are donating some unspecified amount.

In my limited experience:

Examples of well run locally organised good value races:

• Dunsaughlan 10km - what can I say - fantastic is every respect
• Tinryland Rockford Roof Tiles Run
• Carrick On Suir Triathlon

Example of a well run 'expensive race': Connemara Marathon


Examples of poor value high price races:

• Athlone triathlon - a money making day for waterways ireland
• Wexford HM
• Eireman
• London Tri (ok not Irish but overpriced and bad value - the way a lot of Irish tri's are heading)

lecheile

This is an issue that I'm really torn between the two arguments.

The capitalist in me encourages free enterprise and risk-taking associated with commercial events that are well promoted, highly priced and continue to attract many thousands of runners.
The club member in my sees the time and effort invested, the length and breadth of the country, by volunteers trying to run, fund and develop athletics for all to enjoy.

My difficulty with, what appears to be a fast growing number of, 'commercial' events is where they

• Do not make public the nature of the contribution to the designated charity
• Misrepresent the status of the AAI permit, and even when AAI permit has been received there is nothing at all given back to athletics (save the meagre fee)
• Declare a course as being accurately measured when it is clearly not

I believe that the AAI permit system (which has its faults and needs overhauling – don’t get me started!!) could have a role to play in helping to ensure that these 'commercial' events are encouraged to contribute to the development of Athletics in Ireland.

For many, the existence or not of an AAI permit is not be a factor in deciding whether they take part in a race, the rules associated with AAI members not competing in non AAI affiliated events is rarely applied. If you could turn this around and ensure that race organisers understood the value of an AAI permit (because you are not likely to get many AAI members without it) you can then start leveraging that value.

It could be as simple as applying an AAI levy for each participant of an event (make it a percentage, so that high price commercial events contribute more) to be given to the local AAI County Board (where the permit will be granted). In such a scenario the money gets invested back into the local athletics development and local county boards and clubs could take a more proactive (as it will be revenue generating) approach to supporting and developing races in the county.

RayCun

dario28 wrote: »

Any half marathon that charges more than 40 euros is a rip off

I wouldn't mind that, if I knew that the race was well-organised and the money was going to support local clubs and/or charities.
20 euro would be a rip-off for a badly-run, for-profit event.

tunney

griffin100 wrote: »

Then why do they continue to sell out? Why do we still pay these prices? We have no one to blame but ourselves.

If people stop paying ridiculous prices to enter races then the organisers will either have to reduce the prices or cancel the events. If you have an objection to running a race that makes money for an organising company or is too expensive then dont enter. For the most part I dont care who organises a race and how much money they make from it as long as its well run - Connemara is a good example, every year there are lots on people online whinging about the costs yet it continues to sell out well before the race date - having done the half last year I can say that whilst it was expensive it was worth it.

Whilst I will enter 'corporate' races and pay the higher prices if I think its worth it I think that locally run races are still the backbone of the athletics / tri calandar and I would hate to see a situation where most of the larger events are run by companies whose priority is to make money. I think the sport would be a lot poorer if we ended up in that situation which seems to be the way that the UK Tri calander has gone.

What I do strongly object to is the throwaway 'charity' label that organisers can put on a race as long as they are donating some unspecified amount.

In my limited experience:

Examples of well run locally organised good value races:

• Dunsaughlan 10km - what can I say - fantastic is every respect
• Tinryland Rockford Roof Tiles Run
• Carrick On Suir Triathlon

Example of a well run 'expensive race': Connemara Marathon


Examples of poor value high price races:

• Athlone triathlon - a money making day for waterways ireland
• Wexford HM
• Eireman
• London Tri (ok not Irish but overpriced and bad value - the way a lot of Irish tri's are heading)

I'm biting my tongue on sh!te value, sh!t run races but I ahve to correct the above.

Athlone is not run by Waterways Ireland and afaik Athlone does not give money to Waterways Ireland but rather the other way around. Waterways Ireland are to be commended for the sponsroship of races and their promotion of the use of the lakes and rivers of Ireland. Some of which are prestine and massively under utilised.

robinph

RoyMcC wrote: »

As robinph says we really ought to revive the idea of a ratings system, which was discussed previously. There is a good cross section of runners on here who can provide information/opinion. It just needs someone to formulate a simple system, with the mods support.

Unfortunately, with the vBulletin system, we are limited to having one poll per thread so would only be able to have an overall rating out of 5/10/whatever and could not give a rating out of 5 for course and another out of 5 for goodie bag or anything along those lines.

I'd not want to be coming up with any ideas that would be increasing the mod workload, but would something along the lines of this be workable and actually give a fairer system of rating:

Poll out of 5 or 10 for overall opinion of race.
You only vote in the poll though if you also post in that thread, or the poll must be public, so that we kind of limit the voting to people that have actually done that race.
One post per person, so it remains a rating thread and not a ranting thread or chatting about results thread.
Each poster gives a rating out of 5 for the separate area like course, goodie bag, price ,and their overall mark out of X in their post.
After X months after the race the thread is locked and the separate scores averaged and wiki'ed.

Anything else? What won't work? What will be too much hassle for the mods?

griffin100

Athlone is not run by Waterways Ireland and afaik Athlone does not give money to Waterways Ireland but rather the other way around. Waterways Ireland are to be commended for the sponsroship of races and their promotion of the use of the lakes and rivers of Ireland. Some of which are prestine and massively under utilised.

My mistake . I still think its an overpriced poorly run event based on my experiences of last year.

RoyMcC

robinph wrote: »

Unfortunately, with the vBulletin system, we are limited to having one poll per thread so would only be able to have an overall rating out of 5/10/whatever and could not give a rating out of 5 for course and another out of 5 for goodie bag or anything along those lines.

I'd not want to be coming up with any ideas that would be increasing the mod workload, but would something along the lines of this be workable and actually give a fairer system of rating:

Poll out of 5 or 10 for overall opinion of race.
You only vote in the poll though if you also post in that thread, or the poll must be public, so that we kind of limit the voting to people that have actually done that race.
One post per person, so it remains a rating thread and not a ranting thread or chatting about results thread.
Each poster gives a rating out of 5 for the separate area like course, goodie bag, price ,and their overall mark out of X in their post.
After X months after the race the thread is locked and the separate scores averaged and wiki'ed.

Anything else? What won't work? What will be too much hassle for the mods?

So it's not a poll as such, but a thread? Might work if people work to the same format and not start inventing their own categories

Unashamedly cribbing from Runner's World their contributers vote out of 10 on
Overall score
Would you do it again
Scenery
PB potential
Atmosphere
Organisation
Value
Beginner-friendliness

Not saying we need to replicate that but

How about we try it for (say) the Conn Half as that should get decent feedback.

robinph

RoyMcC wrote: »

So it's not a poll as such, but a thread? Might work if people work to the same format and not start inventing their own categories

Unashamedly cribbing from Runner's World their contributers vote out of 10 on
Overall score
Would you do it again
Scenery
PB potential
Atmosphere
Organisation
Value
Beginner-friendliness

Not saying we need to replicate that but

How about we try it for (say) the Conn Half as that should get decent feedback.

Well as the poll options are limited it does restrict us, but we can make use of the poll options for just giving an overall score. I think it does need to be policed to prevent it going off topic and would need to be "one runner, one post" and you should only post following something like that format of ratings areas you've listed. Discussing the actual race should be a separate thread I think, which we already have for each race anyway.

Dingle half marathon was a particular rip-off at €65 and can't see any evidence of any of that going to charity. I'd say that the organiser did very well out of that one.

bart simpson

robinph wrote: »

Unfortunately, with the vBulletin system, we are limited to having one poll per thread so would only be able to have an overall rating out of 5/10/whatever and could not give a rating out of 5 for course and another out of 5 for goodie bag or anything along those lines.

I'd not want to be coming up with any ideas that would be increasing the mod workload, but would something along the lines of this be workable and actually give a fairer system of rating:

Poll out of 5 or 10 for overall opinion of race.
You only vote in the poll though if you also post in that thread, or the poll must be public, so that we kind of limit the voting to people that have actually done that race.
One post per person, so it remains a rating thread and not a ranting thread or chatting about results thread.
Each poster gives a rating out of 5 for the separate area like course, goodie bag, price ,and their overall mark out of X in their post.
After X months after the race the thread is locked and the separate scores averaged and wiki'ed.

Anything else? What won't work? What will be too much hassle for the mods?

could you set up another "index of key ART theads" where a a simple rating poll is attached to each event
example
how do you rate xxxx event
100-80
80-60
60-40
40-20
20-0

when rating award up to a maximium of 20 from the following five categories, the sum of these five is your final rating with which you will poll above.

Price/Goody Bag/Value.....
Marshalling....
Facilities.....
Course.....
Other.....

An example
Dungarvan 10 Mile
Price/Goody Bag/Value..... 17/20
Marshalling.... 15/20
Facilities..... 18/20
Course..... 17/20
Other..... 16/20
total..... 83/100

at which point i would pick the 100-80 on the poll!

DustyBin

RoyMcC wrote: »

So it's not a poll as such, but a thread? Might work if people work to the same format and not start inventing their own categories

Unashamedly cribbing from Runner's World their contributers vote out of 10 on
Overall score
Would you do it again
Scenery
PB potential
Atmosphere
Organisation
Value
Beginner-friendliness

Not saying we need to replicate that but

How about we try it for (say) the Conn Half as that should get decent feedback.

How about using a table instead of a poll?
Each boardsie who competed in the event could quote and update the table similar to how both the 1000 mile and swim/cycle/run threads currently operate. After a defined cut off point someone could copy & paste the table into excel to quickly work out averages. Maybe someone like robinph could figure out how to add an average field to the bottom of the table within the boards table? (not sure if possible or not)

Might look something like:

Connemara Half
Name|Overall score|Would you do it again|Scenery|PB potential|Atmosphere|Organisation|Value|Beginner-friendliness
DustyBin|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9


My comments on the above event are blah,blah,blah




Would that work?

bart simpson

DustyBin wrote: »

How about using a table instead of a poll?
Each boardsie who competed in the event could quote and update the table similar to how both the 1000 mile and swim/cycle/run threads currently operate. After a defined cut off point someone could copy & paste the table into excel to quickly work out averages. Maybe someone like robinph could figure out how to add an average field to the bottom of the table within the boards table? (not sure if possible or not)

Might look something like:

Connemara Half
Name|Overall score|Would you do it again|Scenery|PB potential|Atmosphere|Organisation|Value|Beginner-friendliness
DustyBin|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9


My comments on the above event are blah,blah,blah




Would that work?

yeah i say that would work great alright, i think we would need to get uniform set of criteria for all the races though, maybe we should have a poll to decide that;) at the end of the year all events could be placed in a chart with they scores they got from these charts to give a best of 2010 event guide!

Condo131

glasso wrote: »

Dingle half marathon was a particular rip-off at €65 and can't see any evidence of any of that going to charity. I'd say that the organiser did very well out of that one.

Touche!
.....and the same guy who organised Dingle in organising........wait for it........Limerick!


This morning I got an email from yet another Limited Company asking for their race to be listed in my club's on-line fixture list. Charge is €50 for a 15 mile race in Killarney. The Cork to Cobh 15 will cost you €20.

I'm going to check round with the rest of the Club committee, with the idea of listing commercial races separately and also emailing each company a questionnaire (yet to be drafted), which will be linked to their listing.

Another thing that bugs be about these commercials is it is sometimes very hard to find out who is running them, e.g. mick@somewhere.com, 08x-(whatever). Afaik, ALL commercial entities must list their VAT number, directors etc on ALL documentation. A quick check of some of these commercial races websites show that they are not compliant with this.

Edit: One high profile ling distance event in County Cork appears not to have had an AAI permit for the past few years. The AAI are looking into it - what they're going to do, I don't know.

robinph

DustyBin wrote: »

How about using a table instead of a poll?
Each boardsie who competed in the event could quote and update the table similar to how both the 1000 mile and swim/cycle/run threads currently operate. After a defined cut off point someone could copy & paste the table into excel to quickly work out averages. Maybe someone like robinph could figure out how to add an average field to the bottom of the table within the boards table? (not sure if possible or not)

Might look something like:

Connemara Half
Name|Overall score|Would you do it again|Scenery|PB potential|Atmosphere|Organisation|Value|Beginner-friendliness
DustyBin|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9


My comments on the above event are blah,blah,blah




Would that work?

I like that idea with the table.

I don't think it will be possible to do an averaging calculation on the numbers using BBCode, but just having the numbers in a table like that makes it relatively simple to figure out or, just add to the thread after a cut-off and the thread gets locked for that event.

Peckham

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm have no association with the association (pardon the pun) but, would I be right in saying that I could organize a race tomorrow, charge what I will, apply for an AAI permit, and then when handing out flyers, include the text "AAI permit pending" (have a sniff around the races in the Events forum).

As you're an AAI member through your Boards AC membership, you'd get a slap on the wrists for this!

MrCreosote

glasso wrote: »

Dingle half marathon was a particular rip-off at €65 and can't see any evidence of any of that going to charity. I'd say that the organiser did very well out of that one.

I did this last year- it was a bit overpriced probably, at least relative to the full marathon, but I wouldn't say it was a particular rip-off.

We got a completely closed road around Slea Head which was tough enough to arrange I'd imagine. The weather on the day helped of course, and the fact I didn't have to arrange accommodation for it but personally I had a great day.

Expensive? definitely overpriced? a little, Rip-off? No

umpire bat

Its up to the clubs and those within the AAI at county, provincial or national level to put a stronger case for " non commercial races"
Most club races give excellent hospitality, post race videos, all category prizes, goody bags and more often than not changing faciclities. Chip timing is increasingly used. Its up to us to promote in a brasher fashion.
Use the word "run" instead of race is usually a good way of encouraging newbies..And use Boards, Facebook, Twitter etc...to spread the word.
Dont be afraid to put leaflets into commercial gyms. Most of those who fork out 50 or 60 euro to race train on treadmills!! If they didnt they'd know people in clubs who would wise them up!

--amadeus--

Commercial entities playing the charity card is bad. Equaly bad in my opinion are the charities themselves who leap in and organise a road race as a fundraising event in the same way they would organise a raffle or bag packing. Often these races are botched together by people with little interest in and minimal experience of running and they just don't "get" what runners want. I have heard stories of people finishing "race for life" events in the UK and being delighted with a PB only to be told that the course was only approximate distance because "it's only for fun". That kind of attitude is seeping in over here now.

And even if the races are well organised some of teh charity races are eye wateringly expensive. This for example is a trail race that is only €20 to enter. Plus "we will be asking all participants to fundraise minimum €50 for DEBRA Ireland", if it's non negotiable fundraising then it's a €70 entry, at least be honest about it (yes, I know it's a tax dodge). And the ironic thing is that (as the event thread says) you could do an almost identical event a few days later for one tenth the cost!

Condo131

Looks like the first official AAI shots are finally being fired. This is only the first move in the process. There are other processes in train.

Contents of email from AAI Cork County Board:
"March 31 – County Board Notice regarding The Bay Run and other races without AAI permits The Bay Run Half Marathon (Glengarriff to Bantry) takes place on May 2nd 2010. This race does NOT have an Athletics Ireland permit. Cork County Board was not approached directly or indirectly via a Cork club regarding this event. The Board is requesting that all Cork clubs advise their athletes not to support or participate in this event or any other athletics event that does not have a permit from Athletics Ireland."

eliwallach

Condo131 wrote: »

"March 31 – County Board Notice regarding The Bay Run and other races without AAI permits The Bay Run Half Marathon (Glengarriff to Bantry) takes place on May 2nd 2010. This race does NOT have an Athletics Ireland permit. Cork County Board was not approached directly or indirectly via a Cork club regarding this event. The Board is requesting that all Cork clubs advise their athletes not to support or participate in this event or any other athletics event that does not have a permit from Athletics Ireland."

Bit late for those already entered,... unless they want to forego their €50 to make a stand on behalf of AAI and the Cork County Board.

Condo131

eliwallach wrote: »

Bit late for those already entered,... unless they want to forego their €50 to make a stand on behalf of AAI and the Cork County Board.

I agree. For anyone already entered, making a stand won't reduce the organisers profit by one cent.

As I said before, I believe that the AAI have not been minding their own 'turf' and they now have a battle on their hands with these commercial races. It's not going to be easy to win. Oth, if the AAI gets the finger out wrt permits AND letting everyone see easily which races have permits, if AAI members - and members of other official sporting bodies also - then do not enter, the cut in entries may be enough to cut profits sufficent discourage the profiteers.

mitresize5

displaying pure ingnorance here but what does AAI accreditation add to a properly run commercial event

meathcountysec

mitresize5 wrote: »

displaying pure ingnorance here but what does AAI accreditation add to a properly run commercial event

In theory it means that AAI registered athletes are allowed to participate.

baza1976

Condo131 wrote: »

I've been thinking about this for some time, but RDunne's thread gave me the incentive to get the ball rolling, however I don't have a race to include myself as I avoid races that I think are bad value - I'll leave it up to others to name and shame.

Why leave it up to others to name and shame? I think it is cheap of you to start a thread liek this and not name races you have a n issue with, but you want the rest of us to build a case for you. You like the rest of us should name and shame

Many are promoted as charity fundraisers but few details are ever published - I find that the genuine charity fundraisers are very up-front about the amount raised for charity.

I fully agree with the above, race organisors shouldn't be so defensive when asked about the above, makes them look guilty if yuo aske me

The unfortunate thing about these business ventures is that they rely very heavily on unpaid volunteers to succeed.
true again, bt don't clubs do this too??

What do you guys think?

I think it is a shame that I have to be a member of a club to run in most races or cross country events set up by a club. why not charge me an extra €2 or a fiver, take a leaf from the IMRA book.
And before anyone starts I don't have the time or do I want to join a club.

From what I can make out, the clubs are seeing all these people running on the streets and asking themselves "why won't they join us". well let me tell you what I think. I think you should be more pro active, go to the houses, estates, put some leaflets in the doors of these homes just like the local gaa, soccer and rugby clubs do. Get into the local papers more, jezzzzzz where I live you wouldn't think there wasa running club with in 20 miles.

It's becasue of the above that these new races are been set up. people go jogging to stay fit. they don't know there is a club around the corner. They are not encouraged to join this club and/or they don't know who to contact. Then they see/hear a race advertised on local radio/paper, .........off they go.

Now the clubs see the money being generated and either want a slice or don't want anyone else getting it. Sounds liek clubs feel cheated.

Condo131 wrote: »

Touche!
.....and the same guy who organised Dingle in organising........wait for it........Limerick!

Yeah, I have a bad feling about this one, sadly. There was someone on here mouthing on about how good this was going to be, saying it was to be better than dingle (see first few pages of great limerick run thread). Now there isn't a whisper from them. .

Well

This morning I got an email from yet another Limited Company asking for their race to be listed in my club's on-line fixture list. Charge is €50 for a 15 mile race in Killarney. The Cork to Cobh 15 will cost you €20.

I'm going to check round with the rest of the Club committee, with the idea of listing commercial races separately and also emailing each company a questionnaire (yet to be drafted), which will be linked to their listing.
This is a good idea

Another thing that bugs be about these commercials is it is sometimes very hard to find out who is running them, e.g. mick@somewhere.com, 08x-(whatever).

yes I agree

RayCun

Veering off-topic, but I think it's a mistake to assume that runners would join clubs if only they knew about them. Team sports like football, rugby, lawn bowls - you need a group of people to play with, you need people to play against, you need to be a member of a club. But running (cycling, swimming) you can do on your own. There may be advantages to joining a club, but it's not necessary. For anti-social bastards like myself that's a plus point.

Stupid_Private

baza1976 wrote: »

I think it is a shame that I have to be a member of a club to run in most races or cross country events set up by a club. why not charge me an extra €2 or a fiver, take a leaf from the IMRA book.
And before anyone starts I don't have the time or do I want to join a club.

The only races you can't take part in are AAI championship races. There are very few championship races each year so you aren't blocked from "most races". After that there's no club races that are closed to non-AAI members that I can think of. Raheny 5 Mile, Jingle Bells 5k and New Years Tom Brennan 5k are the first races that pop into my head organised in Dublin by clubs with zero restrictions on people taking part.

baza1976

Stupid_Private wrote: »

The only races you can't take part in are AAI championship races. There are very few championship races each year so you aren't blocked from "most races". After that there's no club races that are closed to non-AAI members that I can think of. Raheny 5 Mile, Jingle Bells 5k and New Years Tom Brennan 5k are the first races that pop into my head organised in Dublin by clubs with zero restrictions on people taking part.

But I don't live in Dublin!! In the Limerick/Tipp/Clare area there are very few club races open to the non member that I am aware of.

There are about 3 around Christmas time, I think Bilboa have 1 every year too.

That is why you have all these "new" races appearing.

bart simpson

baza1976 wrote: »

But I don't live in Dublin!! In the Limerick/Tipp/Clare area there are very few club races open to the non member that I am aware of.

There are about 3 around Christmas time, I think Bilboa have 1 every year too.

That is why you have all these "new" races appearing.

kilinaboy 10 mile is on april 11th if your interested

meathcountysec

Any club race that gets an AAI permit is open to all to take part. The permit means that the event is covered by the appropriate insurance for all participants of whatever persuasion..