Gracie Combatives belts in irish BJJ competition

JohnMc1 · 24-03-2010 11:33PM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

What if the gracie combatives blue belt is of a blue belt standard? .

You can watch videos people submit to GC to be graded. As an MA practicioner it makes you sad to see what is considered "passing" in that system. Its like Rorian and his sons are everything possible to destroy what the Gracie have built in the MA world.

da-bres wrote:

Is there a governing body of irish BJJ?

BJJ's problem and possible downfall is that there is no governing body anywhere.

Sid_Justice · 24-03-2010 11:36PM

itch53 wrote: »

Hey,

No problem at all, glad to be getting information on this myself!

Stephen

Thanks again for posting your story here. Just wondering if it was Gracie combatives itself (the self-defence focus) that attracted you to it,or the fact it can be trained online. I mean, if you could train in pure BJJ online (like following bj penn's video's etc) would you? Or do you prefer the combatives?

To be honest, there aren't many people that start from scratch, train 3 times a week in a Dublin bjj club (or any bjj club) and get to blue belt level in <6 months. That kind of development is rare.

BobbyOLeary · 25-03-2010 12:59AM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

You can watch videos people submit to GC to be graded. As an MA practicioner it makes you sad to see what is considered "passing" in that system. Its like Rorian and his sons are everything possible to destroy what the Gracie have built in the MA world.

I hear ya and I'd agree that the chances of a GC Blue Belt matching up to a Sport BJJ blue belt (didn't even know it was called that, I usually go with just Jitz) are slim. My point was more philosophical really. If and when a GC Blue Belt arrives who is of blue belt standard (which is what exactly?) will they be allowed on the list?

That said, if someone has achieved a blue belt without the explicit need to show their abilities in live rolling then they can hardly be a BJJ Blue Belt, or any coloured belt for that matter.

Tim_Murphy · 25-03-2010 08:20AM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

What purple belts would you bash Tim in the gi btw?

Ha ha, I never said I'd bash them, I said I'd whoop them!

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I'm amazed at the amount of guys still blue belts after 4+ years who have been training fairly consistently.

A fair share of these IMO would a) not have anybody to grade them and/or b) spend a lot of their training time focusing on no-gi, wrestling or MMA instead of gi BJJ.

cowzerp · 25-03-2010 08:55AM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

I hear ya and I'd agree that the chances of a GC Blue Belt matching up to a Sport BJJ blue belt (didn't even know it was called that, I usually go with just Jitz) are slim. My point was more philosophical really. If and when a GC Blue Belt arrives who is of blue belt standard (which is what exactly?) will they be allowed on the list?

That said, if someone has achieved a blue belt without the explicit need to show their abilities in live rolling then they can hardly be a BJJ Blue Belt, or any coloured belt for that matter.

Dont mean to be smart but the grade is not a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu grade, its something else-so your a BJJ white belt, now with that said, if you are up to BJJ blue belt level competitively like some other non graded sub wrestling folk then you should probably enter in the division that you are best suited, Judo black belts tend to enter straight into blue belt level so you can enter in like that..

lawrencesummers · 25-03-2010 09:35AM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

...

BJJ's problem and possible downfall is that there is no governing body anywhere.

This is the internatioal bjj federation,
http://www.ibjjf.org/

Some countries also have their own federations, france and portugal are just two that i know.
http://www.fpjjb.com/index.php?lx

One of the things that i admire about bjj is the lineage that instructors and students can prove and are proud of, just because a club is part of the national federation of whatever MA it is doesnt mean the level is any good or bad, in bjj if you want to know how good an instructor is you just look at who promoted him/her and that speaks for itself.

BobbyOLeary · 25-03-2010 10:32AM

cowzerp wrote: »

Dont mean to be smart but the grade is not a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu grade, its something else-so your a BJJ white belt, now with that said, if you are up to BJJ blue belt level competitively like some other non graded sub wrestling folk then you should probably enter in the division that you are best suited, Judo black belts tend to enter straight into blue belt level so you can enter in like that..

Just a point Paul, it's not me who's the GC blue belt. I'm still a white belt, I think in total I've spent 4 or 5 hours in the gi in the last three years with the rest being no-gi.

Not trying to be smart myself but what is a BJJ grade then? I was always of the opinion, perhaps wrongly, that a BJJ grade was simply a matter of rolling and technical ability so if the GCJJ guy can hang with BJJ blue belts is he not a blue?

A big part of the attraction for me with jitz was the lack of emphasis put on belts, this seems to be rearing up again with people talking about GC blue belts not being true blue belts. If they're good enough to roll with blues then in my opinion they're blues themselves.

cletus · 25-03-2010 10:38AM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

If they're good enough to roll with blues then in my opinion they're blues themselves.

I think thats the issue. They have not had to roll with other blue belts, they havent been exposed to it in their training, so that why i suggested to Stephen that he try to get to a club to help him guage where he is

cowzerp · 25-03-2010 11:48AM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Just a point Paul, it's not me who's the GC blue belt. I'm still a white belt, I think in total I've spent 4 or 5 hours in the gi in the last three years with the rest being no-gi.

Not trying to be smart myself but what is a BJJ grade then? I was always of the opinion, perhaps wrongly, that a BJJ grade was simply a matter of rolling and technical ability so if the GJJ guy can hang with BJJ blue belts is he not a blue?

A big part of the attraction for me with jitz was the lack of emphasis put on belts, this seems to be rearing up again with people talking about GC blue belts not being true blue belts. If they're good enough to roll with blues then in my opinion they're blues themselves.

Sorry Bobby i just qouted yours as it was easier!!

A bjj grade is a grade for the art BJJ, GCJJ is a made up gimmick that is a self defense grade, not an actual recognised bjj belt, it might aswell be a kung fu belt.

Belts mean lots in BJJ even though its not elitist like in other arts, The thing is there not easily got and tarnished

on a side note-if there good enough to roll with blue belts fine-then grade in BJJ and they'll get there blue

(also 6 months GCJJ is not going to make you handle BJJ Blue belts who usually take 2-3 years to get) unless the person is gifted. its just not the same thing and the point is its not meant to be-its just a tool for the Gracie to make a few quid on the side..

Sid_Justice · 25-03-2010 12:13PM

Hold on, I think we're mixing up terminology.

GJJ - gracie jitjisu - the exact same as BJJ except this is the copyrighted term or what ever used by Rorion and his friends
BJJ - we know what this is
Gracie Combatives - a self defence thingymajiggy with bits of GJJ thrown in (called GJJ because it's organised by Rorion etc.).

itch53 · 25-03-2010 12:24PM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Thanks again for posting your story here. Just wondering if it was Gracie combatives itself (the self-defence focus) that attracted you to it,or the fact it can be trained online. I mean, if you could train in pure BJJ online (like following bj penn's video's etc) would you? Or do you prefer the combatives?

To be honest, there aren't many people that start from scratch, train 3 times a week in a Dublin bjj club (or any bjj club) and get to blue belt level in <6 months. That kind of development is rare.

Hey,

It was more so the flexibility in training the online course brought. What I mean by that is that I work a job with very odd hours, so making it to a class regularly enough to progress is a difficulty. With the online course basically myself and my friends and other guys in this situation could train when we had the free time and still make some progress.

Just to clarify to the other guys (sorry for only using the one quote), we're not saying as we have Blue Belts in this offshoot that we are at the level of BJJ Blue belts and should be let compete there, we're quite aware that it's not a sport BJJ level grade. Basically all we wanted to ask was if we were to enter a Gi competition which belt class would we land in? Blue is honestly too advanced for us at the moment, but I wouldn't want to tarnish any potential wins at white belt due to having a Blue in this Brand of Jiu Jitsu. That's all!

Cletus - Thanks for the advice, I really think that is a good way to guage progress, I hope to attend a few open mat days over the next few months to see exactly where I sit!

cletus · 25-03-2010 01:37PM

No disrespect intended here Stephen, but if you yourself dont feel that you are at a blue belt level, why would you want to be listed as such

itch53 · 25-03-2010 01:42PM

cletus wrote: »

No disrespect intended here Stephen, but if you yourself dont feel that you are at a blue belt level, why would you want to be listed as such

Well this is what I'm asking, I'm not trying to argue that we should be blue belts, and listed as BJJ blue belt holders, I'm completely aware of the differences between what we're doing and what BJJ schools are doing. Is it sort of similar to having a belt colour in say Taekwondo? As in completely inapplicable on the crossover? Or as it's also more closely tied in as it's a lot of the same techniques as BJJ, just a different application of them, does the belt create some sort of grey area?

Basically the clarification I'm looking for is, is it ok to enter competitions as white belt or does this GJJ belt make me ineligible? Or should I be entering at Blue belt in the interests of fairness and just earn my stripes there? I'm not trying to fight for recognitition as a BJJ Blue belt, I just really want to know where I would compete when I do look to enter competitions.

I know there is a Gracie Garage after opening up in Meath, and there are a few other students listed on the Gracie University site, so I think this will start to crop up more in the future, so basically I'm just looking for clarification on how everyone feels about which class to enter at.

Again, just to clear things up, we're not looking to be listed as BJJ Blue belt holders, we know that's not what we have graded in, we're just asking which is the fairest/best way to sign up for competitions. I just wouldn't feel right signing up for a white belt tournament if people felt that having the GJJ grade is an unfair disadvantage, that's all!

Thanks

Stephen

BobbyOLeary · 25-03-2010 02:47PM

cowzerp wrote: »

Sorry Bobby i just qouted yours as it was easier!!

A bjj grade is a grade for the art BJJ, GCJJ is a made up gimmick that is a self defense grade, not an actual recognised bjj belt, it might aswell be a kung fu belt.

Belts mean lots in BJJ even though its not elitist like in other arts, The thing is there not easily got and tarnished

on a side note-if there good enough to roll with blue belts fine-then grade in BJJ and they'll get there blue

(also 6 months GCJJ is not going to make you handle BJJ Blue belts who usually take 2-3 years to get) unless the person is gifted. its just not the same thing and the point is its not meant to be-its just a tool for the Gracie to make a few quid on the side..

Ha no worries mate. I think we agree on the whole thing actually, we both think the belts should be performance based and not just due to some money paid and katas.

I dunno, maybe it's just me but I'm not a huge fan of BJJ gradings. A longer period of observation by the head coach is what's needed in my opinion, not just what happens on the day. That said, I'm only a white belt so maybe my opionion will change as time moves on.

BobbyOLeary · 25-03-2010 02:49PM

cletus wrote: »

I think thats the issue. They have not had to roll with other blue belts, they havent been exposed to it in their training, so that why i suggested to Stephen that he try to get to a club to help him guage where he is

You're right of course. My point was only philosophical. As I said earlier, the chances of a GCJJ guy holding it to a normal BJJ guy are slim so it doesn't really matter.

gstack · 25-03-2010 03:02PM

Bobby every bjj school is different when it comes to giving out the belts.
Some give the belts after sucess in comps etc or if they feel the studentb has reached a sufficient level. Some do formal gradings , just depends.

Will Heffernan · 25-03-2010 03:08PM

gstack wrote: »

Bobby every bjj school is different when it comes to giving out the belts.
Some give the belts after sucess in comps etc or if they feel the studentb has reached a sufficient level. Some do formal gradings , just depends.

In some schools it doesn't matter what your experience or level is...some gorilla just comes along grabs the back of your gi and makes your life miserable 5 minutes at a time

cowzerp · 25-03-2010 03:09PM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

I dunno, maybe it's just me but I'm not a huge fan of BJJ gradings. A longer period of observation by the head coach is what's needed in my opinion, not just what happens on the day. That said, I'm only a white belt so maybe my opionion will change as time moves on.

In my experiences the gradings are done by the method you say, its your actual level and how you perform on the mats consistently and in competitions also, The day grading i feel is just a formality, i dont think anyone ever just stands out and is given a belt tbh..

its up to your instructor to know your level and grade as such..

BobbyOLeary · 25-03-2010 03:12PM

gstack wrote: »

Bobby every bjj school is different when it comes to giving out the belts.
Some give the belts after sucess in comps etc or if they feel the studentb has reached a sufficient level. Some do formal gradings , just depends.

Oh no doubt. That doesn't stop me having an opinion on what way is best though. The competition idea appeals to me too, if you can win the Irish Open at the white belt level it's a pretty good sign you're on the way to blue. I dunno how this applies higher up though as the herd thins out dramatically after that.

Will Heffernan · 25-03-2010 03:17PM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Oh no doubt. That doesn't stop me having an opinion on what way is best though. The competition idea appeals to me too, if you can win the Irish Open at the white belt level it's a pretty good sign you're on the way to blue. I dunno how this applies higher up though as the herd thins out dramatically after that.

Cool...that means I was on my way to blue after a few classes

BobbyOLeary · 25-03-2010 03:30PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Cool...that means I was on my way to blue after a few classes

Don't think it counts if there's only 2 in your division Will :pac:

I was at the Irish Open coincidentally, did you not lose to that young lad from Monasterevin or Athy or wherever that club is in Kildare? If not I have you mixed up with another large Australian.....

Will Heffernan · 25-03-2010 03:46PM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Don't think it counts if there's only 2 in your division Will :pac:

I think there was 4 actually...maybe it was 3...I've been complaining for ages about the lack of fatties getting around

...I'm actually out of that class now...I'm a skinny little wretch now...fighting MMA at 92kg and will play bjj as an under 100.5kg. The funniest bit of that day was the fact that 1. I had to get coached through the final...and if you there you would of got to see me arguing with Barry during the final. 2. The look on Barry's face was priceless when I was asked what I won with and I said 'Armbar'...I'll say no more than it wasn't an armbar...I'm mainly saying no more because I still don't know what it was I won with

. 3. That day has lived on...because every submission I ever get someone with to this day is an 'armbar'...we're toying with the idea of producing a '101 armbar's' DVD.

I was at the Irish Open coincidentally, did you not lose to that young lad from Monasterevin or Athy or wherever that club is in Kildare? If not I have you mixed up with another large Australian.....

Yes...it haunts me to this day

. It was actually in the absolute.

I was so clueless....I missed out on the class where Barry actually went through 1. The rules and 2. The points system.

Personally I think all competitions should be to submission...that would be heaps more fun...spoken like a complete amateur I know. I can not wait to get back to competition and fighting.

I think I'm a bit better equipped for competition now thanks to the time that Barry mainly and others have put into my BJJ. If I'm allowed/able I think my next competition will be as a blue belt if only to get my ass well truly kicked...but that'll be up to my coach.

EnjoyChoke · 25-03-2010 03:57PM

itch53 wrote: »

Hey,

It was more so the flexibility in training the online course brought. What I mean by that is that I work a job with very odd hours, so making it to a class regularly enough to progress is a difficulty. With the online course basically myself and my friends and other guys in this situation could train when we had the free time and still make some progress.

You just fooling youself with this approach. You will not make real progress untill you join a proper BJJ training group and engage in live rolling/drilling. The more experienced the coach and training partners the quicker that progress will be. A lot of Gyms are training at all hours of the day, so there is really is no excuse. You will be shocked at how little this online course will help you when you finally make the plunge in competion or at a BJJ gym. Don't waste anymore of your time with this crap.

itch53 · 25-03-2010 04:33PM

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

You just fooling youself with this approach. You will not make real progress untill you join a proper BJJ training group and engage in live rolling/drilling. The more experienced the coach and training partners the quicker that progress will be. A lot of Gyms are training at all hours of the day, so there is really is no excuse. You will be shocked at how little this online course will help you when you finally make the plunge in competion or at a BJJ gym. Don't waste anymore of your time with this crap.

I appreciate your opinion, but I don't agree with it. I find the way I'm training is to my liking as it suits my work schedule (or lack there of), it's an environment where I'm training with good friends and enjoying it, and I do feel like I'm making progress. I'm not saying if Renzo Gracie opened a Gracie Barra in my back garden I'd be like "F*ck off I've already bought the DVD's", but as it stands with classes in my area, the flexible times suit me, and the attitude of my training partners suits me too.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but I know the pro's and cons of doing what I'm doing. All I really want to know is what level would you guys think I should compete at in a competition? If you as a white belt are happy that my grade in GJJ doesn't affect my BJJ skill set, I'm happy to accept that and compete at white belt. If you feel that the grade does require me to advance to blue belt divisions and take my licks, then I'm also happy with that. I really just want to know come competition time where I should be entering.

I'd also like to reiterate, I'm not trying to claim rights as a BJJ blue belt, or get listed under belt holders or anything like that. I'm purely just asking if me entering as a white belt would be unfair as I do have the Blue grade in this variant, or as my sport BJJ training is extremely limited that white belt is exactly where I should be.

Sorry if the attitude seems a bit snotty, it's not intended that way, I'd just really like to know where I stand on the competition front.

Thanks,

Stephen

cowzerp · 25-03-2010 04:38PM

itch53 wrote: »

I'm purely just asking if me entering as a white belt would be unfair as I do have the Blue grade in this variant, or as my sport BJJ training is extremely limited that white belt is exactly where I should be.

Sorry if the attitude seems a bit snotty, it's not intended that way, I'd just really like to know where I stand on the competition front.

Thanks,

Stephen

Stephen i think yoyr honest and not snotty at all, i'd suggest you compete at white and if your dominant move up the ranks, i doubt you will be right now so i think white will be best for you, best of luck with it.

itch53 · 25-03-2010 04:42PM

cowzerp wrote: »

Stephen i think yoyr honest and not snotty at all, i'd suggest you compete at white and if your dominant move up the ranks, i doubt you will be right now so i think white will be best for you, best of luck with it.

Thank you for the clear response

I really do appreciate that. I think you're absolutely right, for sport BJJ white is exactly where I'm at. As long as it doesn't upset anyone else, that's where I would like to enter to compete.

Again, genuinely do appreciate the response!

Thanks a lot,

Stephen

EnjoyChoke · 25-03-2010 04:51PM

itch53 wrote: »

I'd also like to reiterate, I'm not trying to claim rights as a BJJ blue belt, or get listed under belt holders or anything like that. I'm purely just asking if me entering as a white belt would be unfair as I do have the Blue grade in this variant, or as my sport BJJ training is extremely limited that white belt is exactly where I should be.

I do think you entering a BJJ competition at white belt would be unfair... unfair to you. Can't see you holding your own against a competitive BJJ white belt, given your training methods.
The beauty of competition though is that this is easily proved one way or the other.

cletus · 25-03-2010 06:02PM

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

I do think you entering a BJJ competition at white belt would be unfair... unfair to you. Can't see you holding your own against a competitive BJJ white belt, given your training methods.
The beauty of competition though is that this is easily proved one way or the other.

In fairness, the guy came onto the forum here, and he has been nothing but honest and upfront about his training and skills.

I understand your feeling re the GU, I feel the same way myself, but he's not here spouting Rorion's rhetoric about "sport bjj", he's asking advice

BobbyOLeary · 25-03-2010 07:52PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Personally I think all competitions should be to submission...that would be heaps more fun...spoken like a complete amateur I know. I can not wait to get back to competition and fighting.

You'll find that most if not all no-gi guys will have that opinion. Or at least any of the ones I've met. O'Reilly used to have a better system of where if a match ended as a draw it was stood up and first takedown won (and pulling guard counted as a loss). I've yet to meet someone who actively prefers points over a straight submission. Anywho, that's my off-topic piece for this thread.

Also, remind me to roll with you when I get over to IP, UCD's club is a bit on the light side and it's been a while since I rolled with a fattie :pac:

Barry.Oglesby · 25-03-2010 08:03PM

We have an open mat at about 12 every Saturday Stephen and you're welcome to come down and have a roll to see where you're at. It's open so very relaxed and the guys work through a lot of technique too. Open invite.

Gracie Combatives belts in irish BJJ competition

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