Gracie Combatives belts in irish BJJ competition

Doug Cartel

Excuse me while I hijack this thread a second...

What's the deal with open mat? I always thought that meant "open to members", so you could just turn up and roll, or work on whatever you felt like. I didn't think it meant "open to the public".

Will Heffernan

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

You'll find that most if not all no-gi guys will have that opinion. Or at least any of the ones I've met. O'Reilly used to have a better system of where if a match ended as a draw it was stood up and first takedown won (and pulling guard counted as a loss). I've yet to meet someone who actively prefers points over a straight submission. Anywho, that's my off-topic piece for this thread.

Also, remind me to roll with you when I get over to IP, UCD's club is a bit on the light side and it's been a while since I rolled with a fattie :pac:

Had my wrist checked again today...more damage done than they initially thought...no rolling for me for at least another 6 weeks...it's going to drive me mad.

KevinH

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

You'll find that most if not all no-gi guys will have that opinion. Or at least any of the ones I've met. O'Reilly used to have a better system of where if a match ended as a draw it was stood up and first takedown won (and pulling guard counted as a loss). I've yet to meet someone who actively prefers points over a straight submission.

If Leo Vieira had tapped out eddie bravo early in their match in the adcc no one would have thought much of it.
He didn't though, he absolutely humiliated him on points, and I don't think bravo has competed since ?

A win on points is 100% as valid as a submission.

Sid_Justice

Well there's a slight sneakiness to certain submissions. Like you can demonstrate complete technical superiority over someone by bossing them in all the fundamental positions only to be heel hooked in the dying moments.

But I'd agree with Bobby, we don't enter submission or BJJ tournaments to demonstrate how good our transitions are, the chief aim, is to control your opponent and force him to submit.

BobbyOLeary

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Had my wrist checked again today...more damage done than they initially thought...no rolling for me for at least another 6 weeks...it's going to drive me mad.

Sorry to hear that. Good luck with the recovery. Hopefully it wasn't your muffin grabbing wrist.

A win on points is 100% as valid as a submission.

In accordance with the rules, yes. I don't see it as such but that's my opinion on the matter. Are you primarily a BJJ (gi) guy Kevin? Just curious as I've really never met a single person who's fully happy with a points system in place of submission.

Barry.Oglesby

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Excuse me while I hijack this thread a second...

What's the deal with open mat? I always thought that meant "open to members", so you could just turn up and roll, or work on whatever you felt like. I didn't think it meant "open to the public".

Usually, it's members only as we actually had a problem with freeloaders in the past

In this case it's just a gesture to this lad as he's obviously genuine about wanting to train and compete. That being said, men who arrive bearing gifts generally get to roll. One guy brought a whole stack of his old MMA mags for our office one day . So what I'm saying is, it's open to everyone, as long as you pay tribute like people did to Don Corleone.

EnjoyChoke

cletus wrote: »

In fairness, the guy came onto the forum here, and he has been nothing but honest and upfront about his training and skills.

I understand your feeling re the GU, I feel the same way myself, but he's not here spouting Rorion's rhetoric about "sport bjj", he's asking advice

Yea and I'm giving my advise, drop the nonsense and join a proper BJJ Gym. In regards to competition, he should compete at white belt level level, there won't be any disgruntled competitors because odds on a properly trained white belt will smash him.
I'm not going to pretend that this combatives crap is in any way legit. It's about greed, end of.

itch53

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

We have an open mat at about 12 every Saturday Stephen and you're welcome to come down and have a roll to see where you're at. It's open so very relaxed and the guys work through a lot of technique too. Open invite.

Thanks, I really do appreciate the offer. It'd be interesting for me to see just how close/far off the mark I am, plus it'd be nice to just roll with other people!

Genuinely do appreciate the offer, and will take you up on it. I assume you're closed for Easter weekend? I'll try to get down the one after that though. I'll contact you first to make sure I won't be interfering on a club training day or something though.

Thanks again!

Barry.Oglesby

No prob mate. We're open tomorrow but there's a seminar going on in the gym the week after so probably not the best time to come down. See you soon in any case. You can mail me barry@informedperformance.com if you're looking for info or directions or whatever.

Sid_Justice

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Yea and I'm giving my advise, drop the nonsense and join a proper BJJ Gym. In regards to competition, he should compete at white belt level level, there won't be any disgruntled competitors because odds on a properly trained white belt will smash him.
I'm not going to pretend that this combatives crap is in any way legit. It's about greed, end of.

your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. I don't think GCs by remote location is the best way to train ( i think it's a poor way to train) but it's his own informed choice he has made and at the end of the day it's only money. You've no idea what his standard is, for all we know he's a phenom.

Most clubs in Ireland have a fairly open door attitude to guests etc., people scoping the place out. I'd recommend he tries any of them (barry's as good as any) but taking in mind that eejit aboves attitude, may be best to go anonymously.

Some guys in Jitz seem to like to up their game to 100% when rolling with visitors and that's ok if everyone is happy but a bit prickish under different conditions.

EnjoyChoke

Sid_Justice wrote: »

your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. I don't think GCs by remote location is the best way to train ( i think it's a poor way to train) but it's his own informed choice he has made and at the end of the day it's only money. You've no idea what his standard is, for all we know he's a phenom.

Most clubs in Ireland have a fairly open door attitude to guests etc., people scoping the place out. I'd recommend he tries any of them (barry's as good as any) but taking in mind that eejit aboves attitude, may be best to go anonymously.

Some guys in Jitz seem to like to up their game to 100% when rolling with visitors and that's ok if everyone is happy but a bit prickish under different conditions.

I was giving my opinion on Gracie combatives, as a BJJ practitioner, in a thread titled 'Gracie Combatives belts in irish BJJ competition'. If you don't like It I really couldn't care less.
It's not an informed choice training this way if you have never gauged it against the alternative.
I don't know where you pulled that "rolling with visitors" thing from but that's certainly never been my experience (outside of the beginners who roll 100% with everyone).

Sid_Justice

where do you train?

EnjoyChoke

Sid_Justice wrote: »

where do you train?

In a well known Irish BJJ Gym. Im incognito though, trying to lure beginners into the sport so I can smash them

itch53

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

In a well known Irish BJJ Gym. Im incognito though, trying to lure beginners into the sport so I can smash them

Judging by your open minded attitude I'd say your gym is glad you're incognito too.

As for as it not being an informed choice, I have tried a few of the alternatives, and found them to be good, but class times don't match up with my work hours. Not just the physically being in my place of work, but also tiredness/travel afterwards. As far as how I'm training, yes I've been doing the Gracie Combatitives course, but we also do spar and work from other media also, such as the Roy Dean Blue belt requirements. I'm not stating this is the best way to train, but it's an enjoyable and most importantly, available method for me and the group I train with.

It's quite possible when I go Informed Performance (Thanks again Barry for the invite) I will find myself completely overwhelmed, and I'm fine with that, it's all part of gaining experience. However if I am competitive with other people there, are you going to slate their methods because someone who trains using "Crap" can keep up?

It's such a young sport over here, I don't understand why you would present such a bad attitude towards it's growth, whether you agree with how people are getting involved or not.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get involved in a slagging match, I'm sure you'll have a rebuttal for this, but if you actually do care that much about the sport, don't be trying to put people off entering it. If I show up at a white belt tournament and get smashed, so be it, maybe you're right and my methods are way off. But if I'm competitive hopefully you'll be a bit more open minded about people not training the way you train.

Just to keep the thread on track, I'm not making a case for the Gracie Combatitives being better than traditional training, was purely asking because of using this method to train, what level I could/should compete at. The general consensus is white belt (including myself!), and I'm happy with that decision.

EnjoyChoke

itch53 wrote: »

if you actually do care that much about the sport, don't be trying to put people off entering it. If I show up at a white belt tournament and get smashed, so be it, maybe you're right and my methods are way off. But if I'm competitive hopefully you'll be a bit more open minded about people not training the way you train.

I am open minded but I disagee with the whole concept of Gracie combatives. I used to train in a very similar way and as far as I'm concerned it's useless from a performance point of view. It's nothing personal, not an attack on you, just the training methods. I have never in my years training met a decent player who trained using these methods.
Fair play to you for stepping up and wanting to compete with people outside of your circle. Good luck with your training, you would be much better off and will devolp a lot quicker in a place like Barry's.

stevemc01

itch53 wrote: »

It's such a young sport over here, I don't understand why you would present such a bad attitude towards it's growth, whether you agree with how people are getting involved or not.

People will knock anything that's different, you've had the balls to come on here and put your case forward(extremely well) so don't let it get to you. All you want to do is find out what level you should compete at.

I have found over the last few years that as the sport has grown, some of those involved in its early years over here don't seem to like the fact that its not just them v their mates fighting each other in every tournament anymore. They've wanted the sport to grow for years but apparently only like it when it grows in a way they see fit.

Will Heffernan

This is simple to me...we're such a small 'community' and yes, like every 'community' we're not all going to be one big happy family but the more inclusive we can be the better...I would rather have 100 GC's turn up at the next competition and chance their arm then have none. More people competing means more chance of everyone getting better...shouldn't that be what we're all about?

stevemc01

Will Heffernan wrote: »

This is simple to me...we're such a small 'community' and yes, like every 'community' we're not all going to be one big happy family but the more inclusive we can be the better...I would rather have 100 GC's turn up at the next competition and chance their arm then have none. More people competing means more chance of everyone getting better...shouldn't that be what we're all about?

Yes

EnjoyChoke

stevemc01 wrote: »

People will knock anything that's different, you've had the balls to come on here and put your case forward(extremely well) so don't let it get to you. All you want to do is find out what level you should compete at.

I have found over the last few years that as the sport has grown, some of those involved in its early years over here don't seem to like the fact that its not just them v their mates fighting each other in every tournament anymore. They've wanted the sport to grow for years but apparently only like it when it grows in a way they see fit.

Look, the more people that join and compete in BJJ in Ireland the better, whatever their backgrounds.
I have never encountered anyone from "the early years" of BJJ in Ireland who has not welcomed whole heartedly the growth of the sport in Ireland. They are, in the main, the people who grew the sport for Gods' sake.
Gracie combatives is not BJJ and represents a step backwards. I am not going to be P.C on my opinion on this. It is not a viable alternative, it is money grubbing oportunism.
Like Will I would prefer 100 GC guys turning up to a comp than none but I would much prefare if they were actually training in the legit sport.

Will Heffernan

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Look, the more people that join and compete in BJJ in Ireland the better, whatever their backgrounds.

I get that bit...common ground here.

I have never encountered anyone from "the early years" of BJJ in Ireland who has not welcomed whole heartedly the growth of the sport in Ireland. They are, in the main, the people who grew the sport for Gods' sake.

I agree...I've been helped by heaps of people...all be it only because they were sick side control and kimura's ...so common ground here as well.

Gracie combatives is not BJJ and represents a step backwards.

Judo isn't BJJ either...but I want those guys at BJJ competitions as well...they can car pool with the GC guys...I want to go to competitions and get my ass kicked and be submitted in as many and varied ways as possible.

I am not going to be P.C on my opinion on this. It is not a viable alternative, it is money grubbing oportunism.

1. I don't think you have to be PC. 2. I'm going to get my head kicked in for saying this BUT I've learned a heap from DVD's and the net...would I swap that for what Barry has taught me...not a chance...has it helped me...absolutely...like everyone else I only get the chance to do so many classes...I only get a limited time to roll as well...I've been injured...I've done hours of 'work' on my own and I know if you ask the people that I've done some 'technical' work with it has made a massive difference. Whether they are doing GC or any other DVD training I'd be ecstatic if everyone turned up and competed...I've paid for heaps of crap that turned out to be bad value...I'd love them all to come so we can find out where we're all at.

Like Will I would prefer 100 GC guys turning up to a comp than none but I would much prefare if they were actually training in the legit sport.

Me too...I'd actually prefer if they were all doing BJJ at Informed Performance...that would be AWESOME...I could buy heaps more DVD's .

stevemc01

Listen ideally everyone competing in BJJ should be training at a BJJ club regularly, we'll all agree with that, but the GC guy, Stephen, has already said its not an option for him at the moment. He has also made it clear that he doesn't think his rank is equivalent to that of a BJJ blue belt. It took a lot of balls for him to come online here and discuss the situation and fair play to him.

EnjoyChoke, all he wanted to know was, if he competed in a Gi tournament, would people rather that he competed at the white belt or blue belt level. He wants to avoid bitching and moaning that would happen if he beat a white belt and was later found to be a blue belt in GC. Thats all he wanted to know. There is being PC and there is actively looking for an argument,you have being veering towards the latter.

You dont like GC you've stated that numerous times in the thread. Thats fine we've read it and taken it on board. IMO its not doing the guys any harm but its not ideal, ok.

If you want to crusade against anything there is a bigger problem out there than GC. Its the guys from different martial arts who know sweet FA about BJJ and MMA who are jumping on the bandwagon and teaching classes and taking money off people. All it takes is for one of these cowboys to seriously injure someone and we'll all be targets of the Joe Duffy brigade.

EnjoyChoke

stevemc01 wrote: »

If you want to crusade against anything there is a bigger problem out there than GC. Its the guys from different martial arts who know sweet FA about BJJ and MMA who are jumping on the bandwagon and teaching classes and taking money off people. All it takes is for one of these cowboys to seriously injure someone and we'll all be targets of the Joe Duffy brigade.

Jesus, don't get me started on those fu€kers! :pac:

stevemc01

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Jesus, don't get me started on those fu€kers! :pac:

I know , but still they are a far bigger problem.

lawrencesummers

name and shame, there is a very active bjj police forum on efn, if you know of anyone at that kind of thing here then name them

Niall Keane

This is interesting in the development of martial arts? Are we now in the matrix? Can we augment ourselves through online lessons and suddenly turn around and say "I know kung fu!"? I'm old school and learned in a traditional master-desciple way, that way worked for me, but as a daoist would say the beauty of the way is that there are many ways? I reserve my judgement until I witness "Neo" fight. An old tai chi chuan piece states that to master the art for martial as opposed to health purposes there are two methods, one to learn form a competitent teacher, the other to practice with training partners your own age. I'd imagine this could be said of every art? Who's to say who'd win - any one of a group of 10 lads out on Aran Mor rolling 5-8 hours a day, every day, based on what they have picked up on Youtube or Gracie's online "university" or a lad that trains twice a week pivately for two hours a time with a "master". My money would be on the lads engaged in the more practice (gung fu - time and effort). A competitent teacher can offer his experience, shortcuts to proficiency, passing on hard won experience, tricks and strategies that allow the basic techniques to be applied. This is of course the ideal, especially for competitions, as time limits - with age and responsibilities - what can be achieved in your chosen arena. The let the student explore and learn themselves would, I'd imagine be a longer route, unless you're dealing with genius, but as i said where'd your money be on the guy who trains, perhaps somewhat in the dark, but for 37 hours a week, or the guy who has methods handed to him 4 hours a week?
Again, Chinese expressions come to mind, "fight dragons long enough and you become one", and "ceaseless exertion is the method of gung fu".
I have some admiration for the OP having grown up in Mayo, where GAA was the closest thing to martial art training. Perhaps he too hasn't the opportunity to train under a pro? But he wants to compete, and there are no secrets in competition, he will experience all the tricks and strategies, as they are used against him, if he is like my Aran Mor example, he'll take those tricks home and perfect them, and if I was competing against them, and only practicing part time, well I wouldn't be so cocky as to expect some years from now that my coaches achievements would carry me through such an encounter.
As always it comes down to desire and more specifically intent, the powerhouse behind any great martial artist!

dasmoose

stevemc01 wrote: »

If you want to crusade against anything there is a bigger problem out there than GC. Its the guys from different martial arts who know sweet FA about BJJ and MMA who are jumping on the bandwagon and teaching classes and taking money off people.

You mean like these guys? The emails you get when you run a site like BJJ.ie are brilliant....

Ireeland's First Official Gracie Garage (Jiu-Jitsu Tigers)
We are Ireland's first Gracie Garage! See our official application at www.gracieuniversity.com. For more info please go to www.goldentigeracademy.com
Kind Regards
Ken Byrne
Head instructor at Golden Tiger Academy.

Also guys thanks for the spirited discussion, I'll be talking to the other guys who run the site over the next few days and we'll get back to you with our thoughts.

Liam_B

The BJJ.ie Website, has become a reputable and great resource for Brazilian Jiujitsu in Ireland.

Well done to the guys for administrating such a great Legitimate resource. Lets hope they can keep it that way.

itch53

dasmoose wrote: »

Also guys thanks for the spirited discussion, I'll be talking to the other guys who run the site over the next few days and we'll get back to you with our thoughts.

Hi,

I was just wondering if you guys had reached a decision on what you think the best way forward is?

Thanks,

Stephen

EnjoyChoke

itch53 wrote: »

Hi,

I was just wondering if you guys had reached a decision on what you think the best way forward is?

Thanks,

Stephen

Yes... take up the real sport.

ScottStorm

dasmoose wrote: »

You mean like these guys? The emails you get when you run a site like BJJ.ie are brilliant....



Also guys thanks for the spirited discussion, I'll be talking to the other guys who run the site over the next few days and we'll get back to you with our thoughts.

In fairness, Golden Tiger Academy does not charge to attend their Gracie garage, it is free to members and non members should they contact the academy, so if people are interested in doing the online course they are providing an opportunity for those people to get some mat time.


Ah! I just read on the Gracie website, Gracie Garages are not allowed to charge, which makes sense really. It's still free time on the mat so depending on your training partners it could be constructive.