Gracie Combatives belts in irish BJJ competition

dasmoose · 23-03-2010 04:01PM #1

We've recently received emails from some people (who will remain anonymous) training Gracie Combatives via the internet/DVDs. They told us that they would be taking their blue belt tests fairly soon (after approx 5/6 months of training) and as a result had two questions:

1. Would we list their belts on the belt list?

2. What division should they enter in BJJ tournaments in ireland?

To answer question 1, we note that their questions implicitly recognise a difference between "sport" BJJ belts and Gracie Combatives belts. Furthermore on the GC website itself they mention this:

As a result, a Gracie Academy “street” blue belt will win on the street but may not fare well in a sport jiu-jitsu match. On the other hand, a sport jiu-jitsu blue belt will perform well on the mat, but may have difficulty dealing with unpredictable and chaotic circumstances of a real fight.

From https://www.gracieuniversity.com/LC/testcenter_view.aspx?c=63QJ4TGT7X&n=28&t=1

Therefore it is the position of BJJ.ie that we will not recognise belts awarded by the Gracie University through online belt testing. As stated above they are not belts in the same area. We would also recommend that anyone wanting to learn BJJ make the effort to go to a qualified coach; even training once a month with a real coach and training with friends the rest of the time is (we believe) a vast improvement over trying to learn from DVDs.

To answer question 2? We're asking you, the BJJ practitioners and coaches of Ireland. How would you feel competing against someone in a white belt division and finding out afterwards he was a blue belt in Gracie Combatives? How would you feel in the same scenario as a blue belt? We would also like to point out that we are not a governing body merely a few people trying to run a website and help the sport, so it's not really up to us. It's up to coaches and competitors. However we think we can kickstart the discussion

Thanks,
Mark Curry
BJJ.ie

David Jones · 23-03-2010 04:26PM

Dont open it!!!

gstack · 23-03-2010 04:30PM

AFAIK Mark if as a whitebelt you want to enter the bluebelt division you are generally permitted to , so I would just consider them as whitebelts.

If they doing an online belt test, I would be surprised if they wanted to compete at any level to be honest.
If they do compete at blue and get dominated then they will either never compete again or cop on and throw away their Gracie Combatives belt and train at a real BJJ school.

Either way let them compete at blue if they want to

eoghan.geraghty · 23-03-2010 05:05PM

A white belt has always been allowed compete as a blue belt if he had sufficient training either in bjj or a similar discipline, ie judo comes to mind.

However as you've previously shown, according to their own academy they cannot be considered a "sport bjj" blue belt.

So let them compete in blue belt division.

EnjoyChoke · 23-03-2010 05:51PM

Agree with not recognising the belts, they are not BJJ belts, but competition is the great leveler. Let them enter the blue belt division or the purple belt division for all I care, they will be smashed.

Sid_Justice · 23-03-2010 06:04PM

Surely a Gracie Combatives blue belt is a super set of a GJJ blue belt. Therefore, shouldn't a Gracie Combatives blue belt have a similar skill and technical level of a GJJ blue belt as well as have combative skills?

One presumes a GJJ bluebelt is accepted as a BJJ blue belt so I don't see why GC Blue belts should be excluded. How about adding them to the list with an asterisk

* denotes bought blue belt online

cletus · 23-03-2010 06:08PM

I agree with not listing them as blue belts on the bjj website.

The people in question, having received blue belts, would, i assume, naturally want to wear them at competition, so that in itself negates entry into the white belt devision.

This does, however, raisde another question. If they have blue belts, should they be allowed to wear a white belt into competition

Doug Cartel · 23-03-2010 06:40PM

I'm not a BJJ guy, but this sounds like something you should play by ear. If an internet blue belt wins a white belt event, then he should be kicked up a level in future. If it starts to become a trend where internet blues are winning lower divisions, then it's definitely time to blanket ban them from whitebelt competition.

Barry.Oglesby · 23-03-2010 07:53PM

Hey lads. I got myself a degree from Drumcondra Upstairs Medical school, is there any chance I can be added to the register of GPs in Ireland? I'd like to dole out some antibiotics.

lawrencesummers · 23-03-2010 09:49PM

What do they do in other countries, bjj in ireland is a lot younger and less popular than in the UK, how have they handles the same situation?

I have no problem facing anyone in a competition as long as they can respect the rules, if people fight at a level above themselves so be it but you dont have to look far for people fighting at a level below themselves, let them enter where they think they will be challenged, and if they win its time to step up a level

Sid_Justice · 23-03-2010 09:52PM

Lol at the analogy between a profession that's been in formal existence for a number of centuries which is one of the most tightly regulated officiating bodies in the world and some martial arts thing.

We can make the argument that a BJJ listing is for people with BJJ grades from peer recognised organisations (BJJ revolution, Gracie Barra, SBG, Drysdale etc.) but what about the no-gi tshirts? Why are they in the list than?

I'm not saying a Dave jones / chris brennan blue belt isn't a legit blue belt, but is it the same system?

Barry.Oglesby · 23-03-2010 11:16PM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Lol at the analogy between a profession that's been in formal existence for a number of centuries which is one of the most tightly regulated officiating bodies in the world and some martial arts thing.

I prefer the term joke to analogy

BobbyOLeary · 24-03-2010 12:08AM

Barry wrote:

Hey lads. I got myself a degree from Drumcondra Upstairs Medical school, is there any chance I can be added to the register of GPs in Ireland? I'd like to dole out some antibiotics.

What if the gracie combatives blue belt is of a blue belt standard? Shouldn't they be allowed on the list? Or do we only allow people graded from certain schools? Just an example, if I go away this summer and train some BJJ in California and get given my blue over there, do I get to bring it home or do I have to "earn" it here too before it's recognised? Where do we draw the line between the Drumcondra Upstairs Medical School and UCD? Not arguing, just genuinely curious as to where the line falls.

Chances are the combatives guys aren't as good as the average irish blue belt so it's a moot point though.

David Jones · 24-03-2010 07:31AM

We can make the argument that a BJJ listing is for people with BJJ grades from peer recognised organisations (BJJ revolution, Gracie Barra, SBG, Drysdale etc.) but what about the no-gi tshirts? Why are they in the list than?

I'm not saying a Dave jones / chris brennan blue belt isn't a legit blue belt, but is it the same system?

Not even going to go there, sid justice.

Tim_Murphy · 24-03-2010 09:34AM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Lol at the analogy between a profession that's been in formal existence for a number of centuries which is one of the most tightly regulated officiating bodies in the world and some martial arts thing.

We can make the argument that a BJJ listing is for people with BJJ grades from peer recognised organisations (BJJ revolution, Gracie Barra, SBG, Drysdale etc.) but what about the no-gi tshirts? Why are they in the list than?

I'm not saying a Dave jones / chris brennan blue belt isn't a legit blue belt, but is it the same system?

That is actually a fair enough question IMO.

Why not just keep it simple, let them enter a competition at white belt and see how they get on? If they place then they can compete in the blue division next time.

Didn't know there was such a time as BJJ.ie, has that been around long?

da-bres · 24-03-2010 11:17AM

Is there a governing body of irish BJJ?

It really would help with these kind of queries.. im getting my info from here and bjj.ie.

bjj.ie seems to be the most organised setup. If there was an active governing body rules could be laid down and tournements..(cough cough sapo) would have to comply to standards.

Issues could be officially resolved:)

stevemc01 · 24-03-2010 11:59AM

This thread has ticking time bomb written all over it.

Tim_Murphy · 24-03-2010 12:33PM

da-bres wrote: »

Is there a governing body of irish BJJ?

No, there is no governing body and it's pretty unlikely that there ever be. There isn't really a need as far as I can see.

cletus · 24-03-2010 01:55PM

I've been thinkng about this situation since I posted yesterday. I have revised my stance re. inclusion on the bjj.ie database. As its only real function is to list belts that have been awarded, it has no role in determining who should or should not be on said list. If any legit person has awarded a blue belt to somebody, then it should go on the list.

My initial response to this was from the point of view that it took me a lot longer than 5 months training to get my blue, and also my personal opinion on the Gracie Combatives course. However, objectively speaking, its not up to me as a blue belt to not accept a legitimately awarded belt, however it was awarded.

However, this also means that any competition a Gracie Combatives blue belt enters, should be entered at blue belt division, there shouldn't be a case of, "sure try white belt, see how you get on"

gstack · 24-03-2010 02:03PM

Look the belt is given after doing an ONLINE course in combatives whatever that is so how is it legitimate ?

colinlaird000 · 24-03-2010 02:07PM

I guess, if they enter at blue belt and win, that would suggest that they are quite good. if they lose, then they aren't so good, (On that particular day anyway!) I don't know if fighters have to validate their entry in competitions by having a grade certificate or similar. Its worrying that guys can enter competitions more or less on good faith. Could joe public from some other country and enter a bjj comp at a darker coloured belt level? Obviously they would be found out when fighting, but isn't this a bit of a safety risk? Thankfully we are in a situation here where the number of clubs is small enough that those running competitions know the coaches personally, or have even graded them.
Apologies if this gets anyones heckles up. Just thinking out loud

cletus · 24-03-2010 04:21PM

gstack wrote: »

Look the belt is given after doing an ONLINE course in combatives whatever that is so how is it legitimate ?

I initially felt the same way about it, and I still have some reservations, but i've never rolled with anybody whos only experience of jiu-jitsu is the Gracie Combatives stuff

At the end of the day, even if you dont agree with how Rorion is grading these people, he's a lot more qualified to do so than anybody else on these boards.

as far as certificates go, I didnt get one when I got my blue belt, it was just tied around my waist.

@dasmoose: out of curiosity, did the people who contacted you express a preference for the level they would fight at, i.e. were they looking to go in at either white or blue

BobbyOLeary · 24-03-2010 04:21PM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

No, there is no governing body and it's pretty unlikely that there ever be. There isn't really a need as far as I can see.

Even if there were a governing body, where would they draw the line between what's legitimate and what's not? I reckon if someone wants their name on the list then they should be allowed, BJJ is so small in Ireland that they'll be found out pretty quickly.

The whole thing of having an exclusive belt list rubs me up the wrong way somehow, reminds me too much of the political problems that happen in some trad MA circles.

Barry.Oglesby · 24-03-2010 04:28PM

Well a governing body for BJJ could organise national and international level competitions, send nationally representative teams abroad and attempt to get government funding for courses, competitions etc.

Tim_Murphy · 24-03-2010 04:42PM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Even if there were a governing body, where would they draw the line between what's legitimate and what's not? I reckon if someone wants their name on the list then they should be allowed, BJJ is so small in Ireland that they'll be found out pretty quickly.

The whole thing of having an exclusive belt list rubs me up the wrong way somehow, reminds me too much of the political problems that happen in some trad MA circles.

Ya I know what you mean, but it's just a list at the end of the day, nothing to get too worked up over IMO. Belts are just belts anyway, they only have so much meaning (I'm pretty sure I could whoop a lot of the purple belts on that list! :eek::) ).

cletus · 24-03-2010 04:46PM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Belts are just belts anyway, they only have so much meaning

I see what your saying Tim, but I would imagine a lot of people see them as recognition of sorts for the work they've put in. In the grand scheme of things they have little or no significance, but it probably rankles with people a little bit (i know it does with me) that people be given the same recognition without having to put in the same hours on the mat, being beaten up by Fergal Quinlan (ok the last part is mine

)

Sid_Justice · 24-03-2010 06:59PM

I think it's commendable of the BJJ.ie lads to maintain the list and the website in general and come looking for feedback here (and elsewhere).

What purple belts would you bash Tim in the gi btw?

I'm amazed at the amount of guys still blue belts after 4+ years who have been training fairly consistently.

itch53 · 24-03-2010 10:10PM

Hey,

Just jumping in here as someone who uses the Gracie Combatitives course. I was possibly one of the people emailing asking the questions, as I did send in queries a few weeks ago as to how competing would work.

Myself and one of my training partners are the only two Blue Belt holders through the Gracie University in Ireland at the moment as far as I am aware, so I was asking how competing would work. Basically to get the Blue belt, you have to perform the 36 techniques in almost a kata style to show your knowledge/reflexes with the 36 techniques they have specified. It does not incorporate live rolling, or any Gi based techniques at all. The general feeling is that you would be maybe a 2 or 3 stripe sport BJJ white belt when you achieve your GU blue belt. I'm not under any illusions that I'm at the level of the guys here who have earned their blue belts under qualified instructors, and spent months to years competing and rolling week after week. In saying that, in the grouping we do roll for at least 40 minutes at the end of every session, so we wouldn't be completely new to the pressure situations competing would bring.

Basically my question was that as having got our belts from the GU, we are probably only qualified to compete at a sport level at white belt. However, technically we have Jiu Jitsu (Gracie Jiu Jitsu branded versus Brazilian Jiu Jitsu)Blue belts, so how would this affect our eligibility in entering BJJ competitions.

I appreciate that this method of acquiring belts annoys people who have followed the traditional method of training, but at the moment this is the only training we have access to due to work commitments etc. We would still like to compete, but we're just not sure how to go about it.

I'd appreciate any input anyone could give on this.

Thanks,

Stephen

cletus · 24-03-2010 10:15PM

hey Stephen, thanks for posting in the thread. With regards to competing, what level do you think you should be competing at?

I have to comend your honesty in the situation, it would have been very easy for you to simply turn up at a tournament and fight in the white belt catagory, and mention nothing about the GU grade

itch53 · 24-03-2010 11:19PM

cletus wrote: »

hey Stephen, thanks for posting in the thread. With regards to competing, what level do you think you should be competing at?

I have to comend your honesty in the situation, it would have been very easy for you to simply turn up at a tournament and fight in the white belt catagory, and mention nothing about the GU grade

Hey,

No problem at all, glad to be getting information on this myself!

At the moment, I'd have to say in Gi grappling, white belt level. All of our training so far has been No Gi, and as it's not really belted we'd be in the beginners category I guess? We've about 5 months grappling experience all in.

As for the Gi grappling, I really don't know. The plan with our training group was to switch to Gi training once the Gracie Blue belt had been achieved, and then look to compete after a few months of training Gi specifically. So I guess technically by the time we'd be looking to enter competition, we'd have 12 - 18 months of training behind us, which would put us close to experience levels of newer blue belts. However, to enter now, we would be at white belt level experience and skill wise. So it's definitely a fuzzy area!

The reality is it's not a sport Jiu Jitsu grade, it's an off shoot No Gi Jiu Jitsu grade which focuses on self defense rather than sport. The techniques cross over, such as triangles, arm bars etc. but it doesn't have the Gi specific set ups or guards, passing etc. So from a sport BJJ perspective, we would be white belts, however we have achieved Blue belts in a very similar art, albeit with a different grading system.

I really feel it's up to the organisers to decide what is fair. We realise what extra work we have to put in to compete at a BJJ caliber Blue belt level, so when we do enter, hopefully we'll be competitive at that level. However, if I were to enter now, there's a good chance I'd be killed! Perhaps the idea of if we have the blue belt, just enter us at blue belt and let us earn our stripes? I'm not above getting killed for 6 - 12 months to play catch up, I just want to compete, but I want to compete fairly. Despite the differences in BJJ and GJJ, I wouldn't want someone entering a white belt competition to feel cheated if I were to roll with them and they found out I had the GJJ Blue belt (assuming they don't wail on me!).

It's a tricky one!

Stephen

cletus · 24-03-2010 11:31PM

perhaps, considering your experience is mostly in no gi, it might be an idea to start competing in no gi comps first. They dont require belts, but rather base their catagories on time training, so you could legitimately compete in the "less than 1 year" catagory

The reality is it's not a sport Jiu Jitsu grade, it's an off shoot No Gi Jiu Jitsu grade which focuses on self defense rather than sport. The techniques cross over, such as triangles, arm bars etc. but it doesn't have the Gi specific set ups or guards, passing etc. So from a sport BJJ perspective, we would be white belts, however we have achieved Blue belts in a very similar art, albeit with a different grading system.

Quite a few guys on this forum would train no-gi, from a sport perspective, and they would have "modified" (for want of a better phrase) setups for all the above and more. Its possible to do most of wht you do in the gi without it.

Where abouts are you based? would you be able to travel to a bjj/grappling club and roll with some of the guys who train regularly. If you could do this even once, it might give you a good idea of where you sit skillwise

Gracie Combatives belts in irish BJJ competition

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