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Discrimination against Men

1235789

Comments

  • #122
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Zulu wrote: »
    My complaint was that their close up of a male torso with the head cut out was sexist and inappropriate.
    I agree. Especially by cutting out the head, it suggests the total objectification of the man's body, as in the head is totally irrelevant to him being there.
    Zulu wrote: »
    I suggested that a similar representation of the female form in a bikini focusing only on the chest would be utterly unacceptable.
    I would also consider it inappropriate but it happens all the time. Actually, I remember when I lived in France, an advert for Sanex was a close up of a pair of breasts, completely bare, with a smile made out of Sanex soap foam on the model's stomach. Everywhere -all over the Metro etc - it was unbelievable.


  • #123
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,444 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    citytillidie wrote: »
    Or they both could have been clothed. There was no reason for the man to be shirtless.

    Shirtless and headless objectifies him. He's not a person, he's a chest or a six-pack. It's exactly what women had to put up with for years. Disgraceful that it is continuing with male bodies.


  • #124
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    spurious wrote: »
    Disgraceful that it is continuing with male bodies.
    Yes, I'm all for equality but not equality like this! I hope men put up more of a fight against it than women have done in the past, where many women have become part of the problem.

    Edit: On the subject of men's negative portrayal in advertising, Sarah Haskins does a great short on the "Bumbling Husbands" meme:

    http://current.com/items/90569059_sarah-haskins-in-target-women-doofy-husbands.htm


  • #125
    citytillidie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,041 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    spurious wrote: »
    Shirtless and headless objectifies him. He's not a person, he's a chest or a six-pack. It's exactly what women had to put up with for years. Disgraceful that it is continuing with male bodies.


    But its been like that for years you just have to look at Hollywoods L shaped duvet in films.

    You know the one that goes up to the females neck but only reaches the males waist.

    ******



  • #126
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    citytillidie wrote: »
    But its been like that for years you just have to look at Hollywoods L shaped duvet in films.
    Thats not really the same thing TBH.
    The sheet is often of the non-L varity when the woman lies on her back. It's not really about objectifing either sex & more about keeping the movie suitable for more age groups.


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  • #127
    Elle Collins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 681 ✭✭✭Elle Collins


    james finn wrote: »
    the prostitutes should keep both legs in one sock if they dont want to be ambushed, nobody forced them to walk the streets and jump in to cars with people they dont know, end of story, if you dont wana be ambushed dont walk in to an ambush and then blame men for it.

    Maybe you should have kept both legs in one sock, nobody forced you to take your lad out and stick it in a woman you didn't know well enough to expect some common decency from, end of story. If you don't want to be emotionally ambused and have your rights stripped from you then don't follow your langer into an ambush and then blame women or the law for it.


  • #128
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    sam34 wrote: »
    oooooh you've sussed my hidden agenda, good on ya :rolleyes:

    i cannot blame someone who has sex without first investigating the consequences?

    why not?

    i cannot think that they were irresponsible and foolish?

    i should instead blame some entity like teh school or government, because then the person wouldnt have to take responsibility for their actions?


    if they can look up porn they can look up paternal rights.

    it isnt rocket science.

    You are either being deliberately disingenuous or are woefully out of touch with the mindset of 15 and 16 year olds who are sexually active.

    I get the impression from your other posts in the thread that you're being deliberately obtuse tbh.


  • #129
    source
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭source


    There's a documentary on BBC4 now called "Women" according to the blurb, it's about: "Activists. Vanessa Engle's film looks at a small group of passionate and committed young activists, who believe that the need for feminist politics is now more urgent than ever."

    some of the views of the women on this show is shocking.


  • #130
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    taconnol wrote: »
    look at the recent introduction of an additional test to get into Medicine in university, with the explicit intent of reducing the numbers of women studying medicine

    wait.... What?


  • #131
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    wait.... What?
    Yup. This is an article on the new HPAT test:
    The new system of entry into medical school aims to help achieve a 50/50 gender balance, writes BRIAN MOONEY

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0825/1224253189932.html

    and
    Professor of Academic Medicine and Director of Undergraduate Teaching and Learning at Trinity College, Prof Shaun McCann, said one of the aims of changing the entry system to medical school was to adjust the gender balance. “From the [medical] profession’s point of view, a 50/50 mix is desirable,” he said.

    http://www.imt.ie/opinion/2010/02/hpat_to_engender_a_better_bala.html

    But this thread isn't about discrimination against women (if you consider the above to be an example, that is..) - I was asking specifically if posters would support this type of positive discrimination in favour of men, particularly in relation to education.


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  • #132
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    taconnol wrote: »
    But this thread isn't about discrimination against women (if you consider the above to be an example, that is..) - I was asking specifically if posters would support this type of positive discrimination in favour of men, particularly in relation to education.
    No. I believe that the main problem with 'positive discrimination' is not that it goes against the principle of meritocracy, but that it attempts to solve a social ill without bothering to consider its cause.

    As I previously put forward here, I believe the evidence towards the infamous salary gap between genders is not down to sexism in the workplace, but ironically due to effective monopoly in choice that women have where it comes to staying a home, thus resulting in many doing so and losing out on work experience and work hours that would otherwise add to the bottom line. Naturally, imposing 'positive discrimination' here would not solve this problem, but actually make the inequality even worse.

    Similarly, if fewer boys are going onto higher education, then it is more important that we understand why, rather than impose some form of ham-fisted solution to the problem. For example and purely hypothetically, what if the reason for this was because men required fewer qualifications than women to advance in their careers (due to sexual discrimination)? Legislating 'positive discrimination' would end up further exacerbating the problem.


  • #133
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    taconnol wrote: »
    Yup. This is an article on the new HPAT test:



    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0825/1224253189932.html

    and



    http://www.imt.ie/opinion/2010/02/hpat_to_engender_a_better_bala.html

    But this thread isn't about discrimination against women (if you consider the above to be an example, that is..) - I was asking specifically if posters would support this type of positive discrimination in favour of men, particularly in relation to education.

    Having worked for an ivy league university and having seen the files on applicants eligible for affirmative action, absolutely no way. Affirmative action, while emphasising race, neglected class entirely. So while a member of the latin american aristocracy got a leg up, the white lower middle class-poor boy attending a gas pump in Oklahoma got nothing. And I say this, being eligible for it myself and had I ticked the right race box myself on the relevent forms, I would have had a scholarship to Yale.


  • #134
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No. I believe that the main problem with 'positive discrimination' is not that it goes against the principle of meritocracy, but that it attempts to solve a social ill without bothering to consider its cause.

    As I previously put forward here, I believe the evidence towards the infamous salary gap between genders is not down to sexism in the workplace, but ironically due to effective monopoly in choice that women have where it comes to staying a home, thus resulting in many doing so and losing out on work experience and work hours that would otherwise add to the bottom line. Naturally, imposing 'positive discrimination' here would not solve this problem, but actually make the inequality even worse.

    Similarly, if fewer boys are going onto higher education, then it is more important that we understand why, rather than impose some form of ham-fisted solution to the problem. For example and purely hypothetically, what if the reason for this was because men required fewer qualifications than women to advance in their careers (due to sexual discrimination)? Legislating 'positive discrimination' would end up further exacerbating the problem.

    I would assume that part of the issue being addressed by aptitude tests the issue that the Leaving Cert, being basically a test of how well you can learn things off by heart, is fundamentally easier for females to do well in no?


  • #135
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I would assume that part of the issue being addressed by aptitude tests the issue that the Leaving Cert, being basically a test of how well you can learn things off by heart, is fundamentally easier for females to do well in no?
    To begin with not all school subjects at LC level are so dependant on memory alone - you won't get far with mathematics, for example, if you are simply memorizing things. Additionally, you are assuming that females have better memory, which I'm not sure I've ever heard before, let alone believe.

    Peer pressure is actually a far more powerful contribute to academic achievement. If all of your classmates are going to college after the LC, then the chances that you will push yourself to do so will be much greater. Conversely, if all of your classmates are going to simply go straight into work or trades, so will you.

    Personally, I don't know why the statistics are as they are. It could be social, it could be genetic. It could be as a result of more resources being pumped into girls education (positive discrimination) in recent years. The statistics may even be deceptive - what courses are both genders doing, for example? A degree in hotel management is not exactly the same as a medical degree, IMHO.

    Whatever the truth and the cause, I suspect it's a complex one and not going to be solved with the magic wand of positive discrimination or quotas.


  • #136
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Out of curiosity have they ever practised positive discrimination for women in this country, in things like engineering for example?


  • #137
    hobochris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Out of curiosity have they ever practised positive discrimination for women in this country, in things like engineering for example?

    I remember back in college a few years ago, I was talking to member of the students union, who was given the task by the college of preparing pictures of the department facilities for that years prospectus.

    She mentioned that she was asked to try make the pictures of the computing and engineering department more appealing to a female audience. As such an extra effort was made to photograph groups of female students working in the computer labs.

    I wasn't too pushed by it at the time, but looking back this was an example of positive discrimination in action.


  • #138
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    hobochris wrote: »
    I remember back in college a few years ago, I was talking to member of the students union, who was given the task by the college of preparing pictures of the department facilities for that years prospectus.

    She mentioned that she was asked to try make the pictures of the computing and engineering department more appealing to a female audience. As such an extra effort was made to photograph groups of female students working in the computer labs.

    I wasn't too pushed by it at the time, but looking back this was an example of positive discrimination in action.

    It sort of is. But what I mean is lowering grade point and test score minimums for entry on the basis you are a woman.


  • #139
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Out of curiosity have they ever practised positive discrimination for women in this country, in things like engineering for example?

    My old economics teacher said half of their in-service training days or whatever they're called were spent talking about how to encourage more girls to take up economics, my sister's old physics teacher said he was sick of those training days because it was the same stuff over and over, and there seems to be a constant effort to get more girls to do higher maths.


  • #140
    PopUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭PopUp


    My sister is an engineer and they are always pushing her to talk at open days and so forth. But there are no official quotas for college courses.

    A similar effort exists to get men into primary teaching: MATE.

    I don't have a problem with this kind of encouragement where either sex is underrepresented but I do have my doubts about their effectiveness.


  • #141
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    To begin with not all school subjects at LC level are so dependant on memory alone - you won't get far with mathematics, for example, if you are simply memorizing things.

    There are certainly more than six that are that you could choose to get the perfect score points-wise however.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Additionally, you are assuming that females have better memory, which I'm not sure I've ever heard before, let alone believe.

    I'm fairly convinced that this is the case, however I will have to see if I can find evidence of it somewhere.

    If it is the case, then the leaving cert is certainly skewed in favour of females.


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  • #142
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I don't get how the LC can be skewed in favour of women.
    It is exam based and has been since its inception. When it was introduced, the majority taking it were men. Women fitted into an academic system designed for and by men-remember women didn't have the right to even go to college for many years. Now men think the system is flawed? IT WAS DESIGNED AND IMPLEMENTED BY MEN! Women managed to adapt to make it through the system, why can't men adapt like we did?


  • #143
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,282 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    keane2097 wrote: »
    There are certainly more than six that are that you could choose to get the perfect score points-wise however.

    No you can't. Mathematics is always one of the six.

    If women claimed they were discriminated against in the driving test because it involved mechanical aptitudes, spatial awareness and physical strength, then men would laugh at them.

    The LC is quite clearly the same for everyone. There is no discrimination.


  • #144
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    lazygal wrote: »
    I don't get how the LC can be skewed in favour of women.
    It is exam based and has been since its inception. When it was introduced, the majority taking it were men. Women fitted into an academic system designed for and by men-remember women didn't have the right to even go to college for many years. Now men think the system is flawed? IT WAS DESIGNED AND IMPLEMENTED BY MEN! Women managed to adapt to make it through the system, why can't men adapt like we did?

    It's simple - the courses are by and large stacked in favour of the effective "learn-by-rote" student.

    I'm suggesting that, assuming females are better at this than males genetically (and I haven't actually found any studies that show this, but I will have a look later), then the system favours females.

    The fact that men designed and implemented the system in no way proves, or even suggests, that the system favours men by the way...


  • #145
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    No you can't. Mathematics is always one of the six.

    This is incorrect. You can have 100 points in each of six other subjects for a total of 600 points.

    You would need, in addition, a C3 in honours maths to be eligible for most courses, but that would still be your seventh subject.
    Pherekydes wrote: »
    If women claimed they were discriminated against in the driving test because it involved mechanical aptitudes, spatial awareness and physical strength, then men would laugh at them.

    Your point, while reasonable, is flawed.

    The reason the driving test examines mechanical aptitudes, spatial awareness etc. is because these are the skills necessary to perform the task that you are seeking a license for, i.e. driving.

    This is not the same as the scenario with the Leaving Cert, where you are essentially doing a series of "learn-by-rote" exams to obtain a place in a course where, for the most part, learning by rote is actively discouraged. If you learn off an essay and try to use it in a University exam you will land yourself in fairly serious trouble for plagiarism etc.

    The key difference is that what's being tested at LC level is very different to the tasks that you will be doing afterwards, this is not the case in the driving test.

    Being able to learn off a several essays to get 100 in Geography, for example, will get you nowhere in the Civil Engineering course it gets you into.


  • #146
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    lazygal wrote: »
    I don't get how the LC can be skewed in favour of women.
    It is exam based and has been since its inception. When it was introduced, the majority taking it were men. Women fitted into an academic system designed for and by men-remember women didn't have the right to even go to college for many years. Now men think the system is flawed? IT WAS DESIGNED AND IMPLEMENTED BY MEN! Women managed to adapt to make it through the system, why can't men adapt like we did?
    I don't buy that the LC is skewed in favour of girls, but neither do I buy this University of Talaban rubbish either.

    To begin with, the LC was established in 1924, long after women had the right to go to college (Trinity, for example, admitted women full time from 1904).

    Secondly, you are making the same wild assumptions as keane2097. For example, even if the LC was originally was designed by men (which is questionable) it is a serious stretch to assume that it was designed for them, given it would be sat by both genders.

    Not terribly likely, in short.


  • #147
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,282 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    keane2097 wrote: »
    This is incorrect. You can have 100 points in each of six other subjects for a total of 600 points.

    You would need, in addition, a C3 in honours maths to be eligible for most courses, but that would still be your seventh subject.



    Your point, while reasonable, is flawed.

    The reason the driving test examines mechanical aptitudes, spatial awareness etc. is because these are the skills necessary to perform the task that you are seeking a license for, i.e. driving.

    This is not the same as the scenario with the Leaving Cert, where you are essentially doing a series of "learn-by-rote" exams to obtain a place in a course where, for the most part, learning by rote is actively discouraged. If you learn off an essay and try to use it in a University exam you will land yourself in fairly serious trouble for plagiarism etc.

    The key difference is that what's being tested at LC level is very different to the tasks that you will be doing afterwards, this is not the case in the driving test.

    Being able to learn off a several essays to get 100 in Geography, for example, will get you nowhere in the Civil Engineering course it gets you into.

    Your entire point is based on the unproven assumption that women have better memories. If your assumption is incorrect, and I believe it is, then my comparison with the driving test stands.


  • #148
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Secondly, you are making the same wild assumptions as keane2097. For example, even if the LC was originally was designed by men (which is questionable) it is a serious stretch to assume that it was designed for them, given it would be sat by both genders.

    Not terribly likely, in short.

    I am aware that my point of view is a complete write-off if I can't substantiate my claim that girls learn by rote more effectively, I think my arguments are fairly reasonable if this claim turns out to be correct.

    I'm certainly not saying the system was designed to favour either gender, which you seem to be suggesting...


  • #149
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Your entire point is based on the unproven assumption that women have better memories. If your assumption is incorrect, and I believe it is, then my comparison with the driving test stands.

    I agree that my point stands or falls on that assumption.

    Your comparison is shoddy either way however, as the LC will still give the advantage to people who learn by heart well, when it should be testing skills that will be needed in University and beyond.

    The driving test examines driving, which it should do. The LC examines a skill that is much less relevant to the following stages of education that it grants access to.


  • #150
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I am aware that my point of view is a complete write-off if I can't substantiate my claim that girls learn by rote more effectively, I think my arguments are fairly reasonable if this claim turns out to be correct.
    If your premise is correct, or more likely there is evidence of it (these things are never black-and-white) then it would be arguable.
    I'm certainly not saying the system was designed to favour either gender, which you seem to be suggesting...
    lazygal claimed this - if you read my response to her again you'll see I disagreed with her.


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  • #151
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    If your premise is correct, or more likely there is evidence of it (these things are never black-and-white) then it would be arguable.

    Agreed.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    lazygal claimed this - if you read my response to her again you'll see I disagreed with her.

    Yeah I figured, but you said we we're making the same assumptions in the reply as well which confused me somewhat. :o


This discussion has been closed.
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