Are schools primarily childminding services?

pooch90 · 19-03-2010 10:35PM

Misty Choas wrote: »

I do agree on the amount of homework I used to get in primary school was sometimes ridiculous, I still remember nights where I spent 3+ hours on homework, a few occasions not finishing until just before bedtime! :eek:

What the hell is that supposed to teach you? That taking on too much work in the work place and having no time for a life as a result is acceptable and even encouraged?

And I do agree, in a lot of cases but not all, schools are nothing more than glorified child minding services.

This may have been the case in the past that primary kids were given hours upon hours of homework. Now, however, every school has a homework policy which is adhered to so ridiculous amounts of homework can't be given.

moonage, you don't actually seem to realise how much there is to be done in an average day in school. If "home"work was to be done in school hours then it would end up being a day full of English and Maths.How is that going to do them any good? They may have decent literacy and numeracy skills but come out of it with a deep-rooted hatred (e.g. yourself) of education and learning. That'll do the country a lot of good when 90% of pupils drop out of school before 3rd level.

As Ollchaillin said, there simply isn't time in the day to assess every child in every subject area, this assessment comes from correcting their independent work-ie homework. It'd be all very well and good to say "Fúck it, they're probably all grand" and not give homework but as educators, the teachers actually want to know how everyone is getting on to ensure no child slips through the cracks.

I think the distinction needs to be made between schools actually being glorified child minders and ignorant sh1tbag parents who just like to treat it as such.

starbelgrade · 19-03-2010 10:44PM

Ollchailin wrote: »

brilliant things that go on in classrooms every day, from learning interesting facts, to getting a Valentine's card from the boy in your class you fancy.

That wouldn't have happened in my day, especially in a boys school.

moonage · 20-03-2010 06:24AM

pooch90 wrote: »

moonage, you don't actually seem to realise how much there is to be done in an average day in school. If "home"work was to be done in school hours then it would end up being a day full of English and Maths.How is that going to do them any good?

Bloody hell! A child spends long enough in school. Five days a week, seven hours a day. And then you want them to spend extra time on top of that doing homework. A full day of English and Maths, without homework, sounds fine to me. And then you ask "how is this going to do them any good?"!

The Mad Hatter · 20-03-2010 09:09AM

moonage wrote: »

Schools are supposed to educate children but does it have to be eight hours a day for 14 years? After all, basic literacy and numeracy are reached at a young age.

"You've got the basics, now off you go"?

dolliemix · 20-03-2010 10:45AM

Homework can aid understanding . Homework also provides opportunities for reinforcement of work learned during school time and for children to develop their research skills. Children will need to seek information for themselves from reference materials such as encyclopedias, books, CD Roms and by doing so, are helped along the path to becoming independent learners.

Having the responsibility of needing to meet deadlines promotes self-discipline, an attribute which will impact on school work and beyond.

_Kaiser_ · 20-03-2010 12:03PM

The OP does have a point to be fair..

Far too many people in the last 10-15 years have had children that:

1) They don't really want in the first place - maybe it was because one partner wanted a child, and the other "went along" with it, maybe it was because "everyone else" was doing it, maybe because it's "expected" once you reach a certain age

2) They don't have time for - the days of the "daddy going out to work while mammy stays home and minds the babies and cleans house" are largely gone. These days both parents have no choice but to work to put food on the tables and pay the bills

3) They're not prepared (as people) for raising children - what I like to call the influence of the amercanised "PC touchy-feely, counselling nanny state", where parents are told that teaching their kids a bit of old-fashioned discipline and respect for others and themselves is now "wrong" (and I don't mean by beating the crap outta them, but in the vein as most of us who grew up in the 80s were raised where if you pushed it there were more effective methods for dealing with it that going to sit on the naughty step :rolleyes:)

Now you have to consider the child's potential emotional scarring if you criticise them when they do wrong, or worry about your neighbour/relative or some other do-gooder reporting you etc. :rolleyes:
As a result they plonk them in front of the TV/XBox and figure the school's will know how to teach/raise them instead.

The result of all this (imo):
- Increased antisocial behaviour and crime, and worsening examples of same
- General lack of respect for parents, others, self and property
- Worsening educational standards.. despite what the Government might like the multinationals to believe, our "well educated literate" workforce is now largely a myth.

I'm only in my 30's but I can safely say that there is no way that I would have been allowed to carry-on the way kids do now, and no way that I would speak to my parents with the contempt that a lot of them do either.

Trying to have an adult-style reasoning session with a misbehaving 6/7 year old doesn't work, nor does simply giving in to them for an easier life after a hard day at the office.

Most importantly, they need to start accepting responsibility for raising their own children again rather than expecting society at large to do it for them.

Otherwise, just don't have kids in the first place!

Superbus · 20-03-2010 12:32PM

Having had nearly a whole school year without homework (Transition Year), I can safely say that homework has to be a key component of an education. Even the times in TY that I've been going to class regularly, rather than doing projects, I haven't learnt anything really, as once I walk out the door of the classroom everything I may have learnt has become essentially redundant.

Unfortunately for me, I now have Easter Exams, and all those months without homework or study have caught up with me and my peers.

I can see, however, how primary school could be seen as a variation on childminding. Certainly in my recent experiences of it we did pretty much the same thing year on year, so that First to Fifth Class kind of went by in a blur. I was taught my most helpful assets, spelling, sentence structure etc., at home anyway, through my parents reading to me.

Finally, though, I think it's incorrect to see school as a prison, or a system of brainwashing for future workplace experiences. As I mentioned earlier, I still have the Leaving Cert awaiting, but I can honestly say that I have enjoyed the last 12 years, since I started Junior Infants. I can't think of anything else I would have been doing instead, had there been 3 day weeks or something like that.

pooch90 · 20-03-2010 05:15PM

moonage wrote: »

Bloody hell! A child spends long enough in school. Five days a week, seven hours a day. And then you want them to spend extra time on top of that doing homework. A full day of English and Maths, without homework, sounds fine to me. And then you ask "how is this going to do them any good?"!

The most important things that a child can learn in primary school, apart from basic literacy and numeracy, is social interaction and conflict resolution. The new primary curriculum is a rounded curriculum, aimed at creating a well adjusted child. If the day was just English and Maths they wouldn't leave with any sort of social skills/arts education/physical education.

I'm sure you'd be the first one whinging that they don't spend enough time doing creative/non chalk and talk learning. I suggest you actually look at the obligatory hours designated to each subject in the curriculum. How would it be possible to teach and assess all of the subjects in 28 hours in a given week. Primary subjects consist of

English (4 hrs)
Irish (3 hrs)
maths(3 hrs)
history (1hr)
geography (1hr)
science(1 hr)
music (1hr)
drama (1hr)
art (1hr)
PE (1hr)
SPHE (normally half hr-1hr)

In most schools, half an hour of religion daily. I'm sure the parents and kids would be delighted to eliminate all the subjects and let the weaker ones slip through the cracks just because they may not have a flair for academics. everybody has different talents and to eliminate everything bar English and maths will lead to more maladjusted kids who opt out of education and turn into little scummers.

Catari Jaguar · 20-03-2010 05:31PM

8 Hours eh? Let's see, 8:50am - 1:30pm for Junior/ Senior Infants = 4 hrs 40min
1st - 6th 8:50am - 2:30pm = 5 hours 40 min.
Take out 15 min for break and 30 for min lunch as well.

Homework is generally not given in Junior/ Senior Infants (although is largely requested by parents or given when children need 1 - 1 work with handwriting / phonics)

The time limits for homework are set by the school policies.

Typically: 1st class 20 min, add 5 minutes until 6th class(that is around 45 minutes). A timer should be set and any work that's not completed by then should be put back in the school bag and a parents should write a note in their child's diary explaining to teacher that it was too hard. Teacher will generally differentiate work levels. If a kid can't grasp it at school, then don't give it for homework.

Anyways homework is usually spelling (English & Gaeilge), Maths tables, putting words in sentences. The odd time a worksheet is to be completed.

I find that I feel like a babysitter when the lazy ass PJ wearing parents "forget" to pick their kids up until an hour or so late. Then I tell them to be here on time in future because I'm not a babysitter, if they dont their kid will be left at the nearest Garda station. :mad:

For a lot of children, especially disadvantaged, school is a place where they get the structure that is desperately needed in their lives. Often times, school is the only place they feel safe and shockingly, many children do really enjoy school.

Also add that children go to school for 183 - 186 days of the year. Which is only half a year. Secondary students even less as they have 3 months summer holidays.

20-03-2010 05:41PM

stovelid wrote: »

Moonage 2010: School is a humiliating form of social control

Moonage 2040: They were the best years of my life

That just proves that the ~60 years which lie between graduation and death involve a much more humiliating form of social control: employment.

Durrrrrr. :pac:

plein de force · 20-03-2010 05:46PM

nah i think you've got it wrong
just look at countries where children don't go to school or get adequate education, see where they end up?
you need more than basic literacy and numeracy skills to get a job and support yourself

kowloon · 20-03-2010 08:45PM

The last two years of school were the best of my life, I can't say I learnt very much though. Everything is downhill after that, including third level should you choose it.

gullible · 21-03-2010 02:06AM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

The OP does have a point to be fair..

Far too many people in the last 10-15 years have had children that:

1) They don't really want in the first place - maybe it was because one partner wanted a child, and the other "went along" with it, maybe it was because "everyone else" was doing it, maybe because it's "expected" once you reach a certain age

2) They don't have time for - the days of the "daddy going out to work while mammy stays home and minds the babies and cleans house" are largely gone. These days both parents have no choice but to work to put food on the tables and pay the bills

3) They're not prepared (as people) for raising children - what I like to call the influence of the amercanised "PC touchy-feely, counselling nanny state", where parents are told that teaching their kids a bit of old-fashioned discipline and respect for others and themselves is now "wrong" (and I don't mean by beating the crap outta them, but in the vein as most of us who grew up in the 80s were raised where if you pushed it there were more effective methods for dealing with it that going to sit on the naughty step :rolleyes:)

Now you have to consider the child's potential emotional scarring if you criticise them when they do wrong, or worry about your neighbour/relative or some other do-gooder reporting you etc. :rolleyes:
As a result they plonk them in front of the TV/XBox and figure the school's will know how to teach/raise them instead.

The result of all this (imo):
- Increased antisocial behaviour and crime, and worsening examples of same
- General lack of respect for parents, others, self and property
- Worsening educational standards.. despite what the Government might like the multinationals to believe, our "well educated literate" workforce is now largely a myth.

I'm only in my 30's but I can safely say that there is no way that I would have been allowed to carry-on the way kids do now, and no way that I would speak to my parents with the contempt that a lot of them do either.

Trying to have an adult-style reasoning session with a misbehaving 6/7 year old doesn't work, nor does simply giving in to them for an easier life after a hard day at the office.

Most importantly, they need to start accepting responsibility for raising their own children again rather than expecting society at large to do it for them.

Otherwise, just don't have kids in the first place!

Your right these days both parents will probably have no choice but to work which unfortunately may mean spending less time with their children and thank God the days of "mammy stays home and minds the babies and cleans house" are long gone but does that mean a couple shouldn't have children?

While it is certainly not the school's place to raise/teach instead of a parent (I firmly believe that it's the parents duty to make sure their child is raised in a suitable fashion) surely it is one of the best opportunities a child has to learn to socialise/interact with other people.

I agree that schools maybe seen (even correctly seen) as a childminding service and I'll hold my hands up and say I would be lost without schools. However I do hope my child gets more out of it than just a childminding service.

Kaiser I presume by your post that you are a parent how would you and your partner go out to work every day if it wasn't for the school system?

dolliemix · 21-03-2010 01:47PM

gullible wrote: »

Your right these days both parents will probably have no choice but to work which unfortunately may mean spending less time with their children and thank God the days of "mammy stays home and minds the babies and cleans house" are long gone but does that mean a couple shouldn't have children?

While it is certainly not the school's place to raise/teach instead of a parent (I firmly believe that it's the parents duty to make sure their child is raised in a suitable fashion) surely it is one of the best opportunities a child has to learn to socialise/interact with other people.

I agree that schools maybe seen (even correctly seen) as a childminding service and I'll hold my hands up and say I would be lost without schools. However I do hope my child gets more out of it than just a childminding service.

Kaiser I presume by your post that you are a parent how would you and your partner go out to work every day if it wasn't for the school system?

I don't think that's what the poster meant!!

Hank_Jones · 21-03-2010 02:07PM

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

If you think education isn't the main function of schools, perhaps you'd better spend a bit more time there- or at least ask a person who got half the education the average person did how their life is going.

I'd say that I probably got about half the education of an average person, regarding primary and secondary school anyway.
I'd certainly say that I found absolutely no use for the majority of information I picked up while in school, apart from reading, writing and basic maths.
I absolutely hated school, felt it was like some sort of prison where you were taught by people who didn't actually know much, and had lost their appetite for teaching a long, long time ago.

I dun tink nod goin to skool has held be bak much.
I does fall down a lot tho...

dolliemix · 21-03-2010 02:24PM

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I'd say that I probably got about half the education of an average person, regarding primary and secondary school anyway.
I'd certainly say that I found absolutely no use for the majority of information I picked up while in school, apart from reading, writing and basic maths.
I absolutely hated school, felt it was like some sort of prison where you were taught by people who didn't actually know much, and had lost their appetite for teaching a long, long time ago.

I dun tink nod goin to skool has held be bak much.
I does fall down a lot tho...

Lol! And was that not important?

Nowadays with this touchy feely society that we live in people expect schools to be like summer camps. Are teachers there to teach or to entertain?

Dudess · 21-03-2010 02:34PM

Conspiracy theory stuff about it being a childminding service aside (hugely disagree - and oh yeah, those terrible parents for going out to work... when they can't afford not to. It's not our parents' day any more - when one income was enough for a family; and no, these two incomes aren't required for flatscreen TVs, flash cars, a conservatory) I do think the day is too long. I used to be shattered at the end of the day (8.50 to 4 - just one short break and lunch, there should have been an afternoon short break; the afternoon used to seem like an eternity) - and then launch into homework? And some teenagers have to get a part-time job too. Also, I remember hearing an interview with some sleep expert guy who argued the day starts too early for kids/teenagers and that they're still growing and developing and a start earlier than 9.30 is too much for them.
I remember at assembly the year head used to tell us we should be aiming for three to four hours' study an evening - this was in junior cert. Fuck that lark. Pretty disgraceful actually IMO. We were 15 ffs! I used to just do the minimum required - practical assignments and swotting up if a test was looming. This all took me an hour and a half to two hours. After that, relaxation in the form of TV/listening to music/reading or out to meet friends... the stuff teens are supposed to enjoy.

Revision was only something for exams.

El Siglo · 21-03-2010 02:40PM

I didn't like school that much, aside from the bullying etc... it was the whole rote learning aspect, nothing could deviate from the marking schemes, so I did ok but not great. Went to college, did pretty well for myself by the shear fact that it was my own interpretation of things as opposed to what the book said. That's probably the problem with school, if children were actually taught how to think as opposed to how to remember then things might be different. Creativity shouldn't be limited to art, woodwork or english paper 1.

Dudess · 21-03-2010 02:46PM

The curriculum was also excruciatingly dull too - I'm amazed I managed to stay awake. And some subjects that were mandatory should not have been mandatory at all. It's ludicrous they were.

I had a good laugh though, made very good friends. I'm glad too that Irish schools have a uniform - saves a lot of money and hassle.

Hank_Jones · 21-03-2010 03:29PM

dolliemix wrote: »

Lol! And was that not important?

I picked up some reading, writing and maths at school.
To be honest, the majority of stuff that I learnt was at home.
My family have always been big readers, so I don't think school played as big a part as life at home did.

dolliemix wrote: »

Nowadays with this touchy feely society that we live in people expect schools to be like summer camps. Are teachers there to teach or to entertain?

Just wondering if this comment was directed at me...

Personally I never expected school to be a summer camp.
I did expect to have teachers that had a higher level of intelligence than myself though.
Might have just been my school, but some of my teachers were feckin awful.
Most likely was the school, it has a bad name for education now and parents don't send their kids there.

ScumLord · 21-03-2010 04:04PM

Ollchailin wrote: »

I'd have to say as a teacher that homework is a necessary evil.

It's only necessary within the current system, when I learn stuff at home or at work I don't need to do homework and I'm an adult I don't have the natural learning ability's a child has.

dolliemix · 21-03-2010 04:25PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It's only necessary within the current system, when I learn stuff at home or at work I don't need to do homework and I'm an adult I don't have the natural learning ability's a child has.

you're not doing at least 9 subjects a day and being introduced to new information in each subject each day. It's unlikely that you'll be examined on the information in a state exam.

There's no comparison between 'work" and the objectives of 'work' and the school education system

Hank_Jones · 21-03-2010 04:27PM

Just out of interest...

Are you a teacher Dollie?

You really seem to be sticking up for the Irish school system.

dolliemix · 21-03-2010 04:40PM

Yes (lol!I feel like a should be apologising to you for that as well)!

And I went through school here myself. It served me well.

There are flaws absolutely. But you see things from a completely different point of view when you are teaching. There are so many sweeping generalisations made about teaching and schools, as a result of individual experience.

It's wonderful that you came from such a nurturing and supportive background. Many children don't. Many parents have no interest in education, maybe, as a result of their awful experience. I don't know. I can only speak for myself and my experience. I loved school. I hated studying and loved reading. My brother hated school but loved reading and studying.

Different strokes for different folk!!! Life would be very boring if we all enjoyed the same things.

I just think it's unfair to tar everybody with the same brush as a result of your experience.

Hank_Jones · 21-03-2010 05:00PM

I just felt that school didn't nurture any talents that I had.
There was pretty much no hones on being creative when I was going to school, it was a fairly soul destroying place.
School is changing now though, with creativity coming to the fore a bit more regarding secondary education (it's about time).

School was a place for doing what you are told, kind of like the military.
Not a place for intelligent conversation, not a place for the exchange of ideas.

I really think they need to dump a lot of the classes that they teach in school these days though, religion being the main one. It doesn't have any place in schools.

They need to push teachers harder to improve their students, I would be all for weeding out the poor teachers in schools, surely there are enough younger teachers who really want to teach coming through to take their places.

moonage · 21-03-2010 05:00PM

I think it's pointless for pupils having to go into such depth in subjects most of which will have no practical relevance in the real world.

They should learn a little about a variey of subjects and should then have the choice to further study particular subjects they show an interest in, if any. If they are enthusiastic about a subject it might come in useful later on and they might get a job related to it. Of course, there's more to education than just learning stuff to get a job.

A three day school week sounds about right to me. Or a five day week where they finish at lunch time. Homework could then be done at a leisurely pace during the rest of the time.

Children will then spend less time in their prison and be able to enjoy their freedom. They have nothing to lose but their shackles!

Tar.Aldarion · 21-03-2010 05:01PM

School was awesome but I wish I had gone t a mixed one, although seeing the other schools at lunch was good. It wasn't too long what with the hour lunch and 15 minute break in the morning, along with all the moving between classes etc. Then nothing better than coming home at 4, ****ing off the uniform to watch pokemon and Dgraon ballz. The glory days

dolliemix · 21-03-2010 05:04PM

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I just felt that school didn't nurture any talents that I had.
There was pretty much no hones on being creative when I was going to school, it was a fairly soul destroying place.
School is changing now though, with creativity coming to the fore a bit more regarding secondary education (it's about time).

School was a place for doing what you are told, kind of like the military.
Not a place for intelligent conversation, not a place for the exchange of ideas.

I really think they need to dump a lot of the classes that they teach in school these days though, religion being the main one. It doesn't have any place in schools.

They need to push teachers harder to improve their students, I would be all for weeding out the poor teachers in schools, surely there are enough younger teachers who really want to teach coming through to take their places.

Thats a fair enough opinion and I would agree with many aspects. But I think its for another thread and has been argued to death at this stage.

I've kind of forgotten what this thread is about to be honest. But I'm not getting into the whole too many compulsory subjects/ teachers don't work hard enough debate

Regards

_Kaiser_ · 21-03-2010 05:15PM

gullible wrote: »

Your right these days both parents will probably have no choice but to work which unfortunately may mean spending less time with their children and thank God the days of "mammy stays home and minds the babies and cleans house" are long gone but does that mean a couple shouldn't have children?

While it is certainly not the school's place to raise/teach instead of a parent (I firmly believe that it's the parents duty to make sure their child is raised in a suitable fashion) surely it is one of the best opportunities a child has to learn to socialise/interact with other people.

I agree that schools maybe seen (even correctly seen) as a childminding service and I'll hold my hands up and say I would be lost without schools. However I do hope my child gets more out of it than just a childminding service.

Kaiser I presume by your post that you are a parent how would you and your partner go out to work every day if it wasn't for the school system?

I'm not for a minute saying that two people who both work shouldn't have children, but I do think a bit of thought needs to go into it insofar as "ok, could we get away with one of us working part-time, or is working from home a few days a week an option, or could we relocate closer if we're spending 4 hours a day in the car?"

I guess what I was trying to say is that what's the point in having children if you're not there enough to give them the attention they need and deserve, AND also teach them the basics of right and wrong, respect for themselves, you and others, and do things with them - rather than relying on the schools or neighbourhood to do all this.

To put it in context, I grew up in a one parent family where my mother worked shifts several days/nights a week. That meant that I was largely responsible for getting myself and my younger sister up in the mornings, to/from school (via the creche), and bed in the evenings.

I certainly don't hold this against my mother (it was the 80s, work was scarce, she was a *shock horror* single mother, and she did what she had to), but I'm also able to recognize that this was far from the ideal situation to raise children in.

That said, by the time this was going on, I was old enough that I had been raised with (what I call) a bit of good-old-fashioned parenting so that I was sensible enough and COULD be trusted and left to do these things.
Part of the reason we have such traffic gridlock for example, is little Johnny and Mary can't walk down the road to school anymore, and this "wrap them up in cotton wool" approach does nothing for the children in the long run (again in my opinion).
There's nothing wrong with giving kids a bit of responsibility (and respect) as they get older.. it teaches them that mammy and daddy won't always be there to do everything and clean up the messes they make.

I've also seen the results up close of today's all too common lazy-parenting.. kids thrown out on the street or left in front of the TV to fend for themselves, who DON'T learn the basics of how to behave, be responsible, and treat other people (and their property) and who, if left unchecked, ultimately end up causing trouble and in trouble themselves, whether it be crime, drugs, teenage pregnancies, whatever...

I can tell you without hesitation that regardless of what the PC attitude may be, no child of mine (I'm thinking the teenage 10-16 age group) will ever be out on the street hanging around corners at all hours, disrespect me or their mother the way I see children carrying on every day in supermarkets, or not be aware that life isn't all fun and games and that they will have to ultimately take responsibility for themselves and their own actions - but they'll also be hopefully well equipped to do so.

Dudess · 21-03-2010 05:51PM

I doubt even "PC" people would like kids hanging around street corners at all hours and disrespecting their parents.

School day should start later and finish earlier, IMO. Five days a week still though. And a more interesting, up-to-date, relevant curriculum that offers subjects like law, politics, psychology, media, and no mandatory subjects after Junior Cert.

Are schools primarily childminding services?

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