Cardinal will only step down if told by Pope

Ultravid · 17-03-2010 03:00PM

Why did the parents of any of the victims not contact the police themselves? This is an interesting question. I understand that they instead relied on the Norbertine Order to deal with it. Would the police have done anything anyway? With so many people that could be implicated - Police, psychiatrists, teachers, social workers...one must wonder where will it end. Will it stop with the Church? I'm sure if you dug a little, you could find police who knew and did nothing in some cases.

philologos · 17-03-2010 03:20PM

Ultravid wrote: »

Why did the parents of any of the victims not contact the police themselves? This is an interesting question. I understand that they instead relied on the Norbertine Order to deal with it. Would the police have done anything anyway? With so many people that could be implicated - Police, psychiatrists, teachers, social workers...one must wonder where will it end. Will it stop with the Church? I'm sure if you dug a little, you could find police who knew and did nothing in some cases.

I'd imagine many did try to report it themselves, but their testimonies were discredited as the trust lay with the priest in question.

Ultravid · 17-03-2010 03:35PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd imagine many did try to report it themselves, but their testimonies were discredited as the trust lay with the priest in question.

We don't actually know what the parents did or didn't do. Your comments are mere speculation. I understand that the Norbertine Order knew about him from the 1940s.

LookingFor · 17-03-2010 04:16PM

Ultravid wrote: »

Why did the parents of any of the victims not contact the police themselves? This is an interesting question. I understand that they instead relied on the Norbertine Order to deal with it. Would the police have done anything anyway? With so many people that could be implicated - Police, psychiatrists, teachers, social workers...one must wonder where will it end. Will it stop with the Church? I'm sure if you dug a little, you could find police who knew and did nothing in some cases.

I'd be curious to know the full circumstances too. If others failed to act or acted illegally they should be flagged too, and if still in positions of authority, removed from them and prosecuted where relevant.

raah! · 17-03-2010 05:54PM

goat2 wrote: »

that is different, and yes we are partly, because we elected him and let him in charge of the cookie jar

There is no need to keep confirming what I said in the post. That is exactly what I meant.

PeterIanStaker · 17-03-2010 06:01PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

As long as we have Christotaliban like David Quinn, the less progress we make as a society. He'd be right at home in the American deep South.

Right, maybe I shouldn't be quoting myself (is that bad discussion board protocol?). But here's Quinn doing his job as a hired lapdog from the Iona institute:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-if-brady-must-resign-then-so-should-many-lay-people-2101156.html

MackDeToaster · 18-03-2010 11:37AM

the_dark_side wrote: »

The Raphoe diocese played host to one of the most violent sexual predators, one Father Eugene Greene, a priest who was repeatedly shifted between parishes and even promoted under the bishopric of Seamus Hegarty, who continues to erm..serve as a bishop in Derry.

Back to my original point, should there be calls for Bishop Hegartys resignation?

Amazing to see that this is starting to spread in todays news after being reported in the Belfast Telegraph.

Outrage · 18-03-2010 11:42AM

MackDeToaster wrote: »

Amazing to see that this is starting to spread in todays news after being reported in the Belfast Telegraph.

Yeah, you weren't getting any traction on Cardinal Brady resigning, so the outraged mob moves on to another target. I wonder who'll be next on the church-haters' list?

Lux23 · 18-03-2010 11:45AM

Outrage wrote: »

Yeah, you weren't getting any traction on Cardinal Brady resigning, so the outraged mob moves on to another target. I wonder who'll be next on the church-haters' list?

Its the not the church people hate, its the people who sexually assaulted children and the people who protected monsters like that. Do you honestly think Father Brendan Smyth and people like him did nothing wrong?

Outrage · 18-03-2010 11:57AM

Lux23 wrote: »

Do you honestly think Father Brendan Smyth and people like him did nothing wrong?

What kind of question is that? Did you think before you wrote that?

Lux23 · 18-03-2010 12:00PM

Ultravid wrote: »

BOTH are gravely immoral. Both ought to be condemned.

That maybe be your opinion and you are entitled to it but only one of those things comes with a prison sentence. Maybe you should move to Iran and Uganda, they actually hang gay men.

As for your point that more boys were abused then men, would that not be because males were in the care of priests and Christian Brothers while girls were in the care of Nuns. If a priest wanted to rape young girls he could get to them but if wasn't all that picky the children in his care would do.

Lux23 · 18-03-2010 12:24PM

Outrage wrote: »

What kind of question is that? Did you think before you wrote that?

I just want to see what your opinion on child abusers is; you have spent the last 3 days defending Cardinal Brady et al but you don't seem to have much sympathy for the real victims here.

Outrage · 18-03-2010 12:35PM

Lux23 wrote: »

I just want to see what your opinion on child abusers is; you have spent the last 3 days defending Cardinal Brady et al but you don't seem to have much sympathy for the real victims here.

I pray for the victims of child abuse all the time and I have dug deep into my pocket to help ensure that they get decent compensation. What are you doing apart from cribbing and moaning and wishing to force the downfall of good men?

Lux23 · 18-03-2010 12:45PM

Outrage wrote: »

I pray for the victims of child abuse all the time and I have dug deep into my pocket to help ensure that they get decent compensation. What are you doing apart from cribbing and moaning and wishing to force the downfall of good men?

In fairness not alot so I take your point there. Do you not think that survivors of child abuse have a right to ask Brady to step down? I don't agree that Cardinal Brady is a good man. Good men don't protect child abusers.

rovert · 18-03-2010 12:47PM

Outrage wrote: »

I pray for the victims of child abuse all the time and I have dug deep into my pocket to help ensure that they get decent compensation.

As well as manically trawling boards 24/7 :pac:

funnyname · 18-03-2010 01:00PM

Yesterday on the Stephen Nolan show (BBC Ulster) monsignor dooley said he would not report a paedophile priest to the police.

Here is the link the Dooley interview starts at 0.32 mins

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00rh4cl

Would he report a priest who committed murder?

Outrage · 18-03-2010 01:11PM

funnyname wrote: »

Would he report a priest who committed murder?

In that case, what victim needs to be protected when the body is buried?

I'm sure there are plenty of priests in this country who know about murders through the sacrament of penance. They would sooner be put in the torture chamber than reveal the identity of a penitent. The point I am making is this: holy oaths and the secrecy of the confession box add an extra dimension of complexity to the awful problem of child abuse that has blighted this country. The simplistic appeal-to-the-masses stuff you read about in the popular press does not take into account the full facts due not only to time/human resource/money pressures associated with publishing newspapers, but also because of lack of access to primary sources of information.

Outrage · 18-03-2010 01:16PM

the_dark_side wrote: »

yes, a real spanner in the works of the church if allegations that compensation of 12,000 was paid in a cover up, and bishop Hegarty was involved in the deal...
it was only a matter of time really,

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0318/abuse.html

and much more than this to follow soon

If you're happy to make an out-of-court settlement, you can't come back for more 10 years later just because you see a bigger gravy train chug past you. Were I an abuse victim, I think I'd put a far greater value on an apology from my abuser, than some earthly sum of money. That said, I think the Church should bear the full cost of any medical expenses incurred by all abuse victims. I also think that the families of suicide victims should receive some financial compensation, public/written/face-to-face apologies and medical help if required.

Liam Byrne · 18-03-2010 01:24PM

Outrage wrote: »

Yeah, you weren't getting any traction on Cardinal Brady resigning, so the outraged mob moves on to another target. I wonder who'll be next on the church-haters' list?

Anyone who either (a) is or (b) covered up, or (c) facilitated scumbag child-abusers.

I'd make the point that using the phrase "church-haters" is avoiding the issue, though....as if an inherent hatred of the church came first.

I can take or leave a church, so I didn't start by hating it.....but having read about all this abuse and subsequent "we're above the law" cover-ups I hate it now. They almost certainly have some decent individuals in there, but the organisation itself stinks at this stage.

So - like political parties, etc - they're being judged by their own actions.

And also like politicial parties, the decent individuals are assimilated; their equivalent of the "party whip" is designed to ensure that fairness and justice don't come before "the good / reputation of the corrupt party", and so even originally decent people don't do the right thing.

Liam Byrne · 18-03-2010 01:27PM

Outrage wrote: »

In that case, what victim needs to be protected when the body is buried?

Very narrow view of "victim"...... :rolleyes:

What about the wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend of the primary victim ? What about their children who no longer have a father or mother ? Their siblings and parents ?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 18-03-2010 01:29PM

What does it matter if he resigns or not? The main culprits will still get away with it... yet again.

Outrage · 18-03-2010 01:29PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Very narrow view of "victim"...... :rolleyes:

What about the wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend of the primary victim ? What about their children who no longer have a father or mother ? Their siblings and parents ?

In the case of murder, the body is buried for all to see. In the case of rape/abuse/assaults, the body appears exactly the same to the community at large. The treatment of murder cases vs. child abuse cases is very, very different.

Blueboyd · 18-03-2010 07:46PM

Seems paying few thousands and asking/making the abused/raped person to sign has been the standard practise

http://www.u.tv/News/Brady-faces-fresh-cover-up-allegation/c8445311-7af9-4d2c-bbd0-24279964000b

Nice close ups of the agreement in the video

Biggins · 18-03-2010 07:57PM

Blueboyd wrote: »

Seems paying few thousands and asking/making the abused/raped person to sign has been the standard practise

http://www.u.tv/News/Brady-faces-fresh-cover-up-allegation/c8445311-7af9-4d2c-bbd0-24279964000b

Nice close ups of the agreement in the video

As noted in the report, this payment and demand for silence was AFTER their NEW supposed rules about dealing with abuses.
- So much for even following those!

The founder of the victims group 'One in Four', Colm O'Gorman, told UTV the latest case raises a number of questions which Cardinal Brady needs to answer.
"He needs to explain why the confidentiality was necessary in the settlement of this case.
"There may be reasons why that was necessary, but he should clarify those reasons," he said.
"More importantly, he may need to explain when he and the diocese became aware of the allegations against this individual priest - what their actions were, when and if the priest was removed from ministry and why the priest today appears to be still in a position where he plays a role in the community.
"Fine words just won't cut it any more."

Blueboyd · 18-03-2010 08:16PM

I have a dumb question not being from Ireland.

I think up here in .fi rape is considered one of those crimes that Public Prosecutor can take to court even if the victim and and the rapist would settle what. Is this not the case in Ireland? I mean if it is now public what prevents it not to go to court.

sissorhands · 18-03-2010 08:27PM

He has apologised only because of the chaos he's dealing with. Apologising does not help the 90 people that were affected by this evil man (brendan smith). A good few of them have commited suicide, or died from drugs due to depression. He had the chance to save the innocence of children and did not take it.

This puts me in a difficult position, because I am catholic. I have not gone to mass in awhile though. I know there a good amount of priests that are good and can be trusted because you cannot paint the same brush for every single one of them. I believe in a god, and he has helped me through many of difficult times for me. It's just the vatican is now seeming to me like a dictatorship, and the industrial schools in Ireland where this abuse took place seems like its concentration camps. I actually met a man who suffered abuse under the priests in the schools, and is deaf in one ear because of the bashings he recieved to his head. He also came out labelled as a weirdo and a reculse to society. The other thing is, people in the towns knew that such a catastrophe was taking place and did not say a word because they were in fear of the church. Like a dictatorship. They also don't accept homosexuals in their church, again reffering to the natzi's.

If there is not a Third Eccumenical council of the vatican within the next two years, I don't know what I will do.

Blueboyd · 18-03-2010 08:45PM

Just be yourself

God is God

And religions are man's pathetic attempt to explain God.

It is like if God was your wife - would you want a priest to have sex with her - and then explain the sex to you. What do you need religions for. Go for the real thing.

Paparazzo · 18-03-2010 10:04PM

Outrage wrote: »

If you're happy to make an out-of-court settlement, you can't come back for more 10 years later just because you see a bigger gravy train chug past you. Were I an abuse victim, I think I'd put a far greater value on an apology from my abuser, than some earthly sum of money. That said, I think the Church should bear the full cost of any medical expenses incurred by all abuse victims. I also think that the families of suicide victims should receive some financial compensation, public/written/face-to-face apologies and medical help if required.

Outrage wrote: »

I pray for the victims of child abuse all the time and I have dug deep into my pocket to help ensure that they get decent compensation. What are you doing apart from cribbing and moaning and wishing to force the downfall of good men?

Fairly cynical view that a load of people are just after a pay off. These are kids that were held down and anally penetrated when they were kids. Some have killed themselves, most can't have stable relationships and have serious problems. Your prayers are useless. They want the same thing every victim of a terrible crime wants. Justice. And the Cardinal helped a serial rapist commit more crimes.
Cowen did the same thing the same people would be calling for his head too. I'm sure you would too, but you seem to think a cardinal has special immunity

Ultravid · 19-03-2010 12:09AM

sissorhands wrote: »

He has apologised only because of the chaos he's dealing with. Apologising does not help the 90 people that were affected by this evil man (brendan smith). A good few of them have commited suicide, or died from drugs due to depression. He had the chance to save the innocence of children and did not take it.

The other thing is, people in the towns knew that such a catastrophe was taking place and did not say a word because they were in fear of the church. Like a dictatorship. They also don't accept homosexuals in their church, again reffering to the natzi's.

If there is not a Third Eccumenical council of the vatican within the next two years, I don't know what I will do.

We are still far from authentically implementing the Second Vatican Council. There will be no Vatican III in our lifetimes. The changes which are desired by Modernists (top pick for them is change in sexual moral teaching. Not gonna happen) won't occur in Vatican III or any other Council. They got their chance with Vatican II but didn't quite pull it off. Grrrrr that pesky Divine Guarantee*! They caused chaos right enough and we are dealing with some of the rotten fruits of liberals and modernists** now. We know that they will not prevail. Doesn't stop them trying though.

The Church teaches the faith and morals infallibly. This means we can find the true teaching of Christ which lead to our salvation. It doesn't mean that some people won't muck up majorly. But to reject the salvation offered by Christ because of a few bad eggs, or even were it a lot of bad eggs, would be spiritual suicide.

*And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. Mt. 16:18

**http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2002/jun/020618a.html

bleg · 19-03-2010 12:19AM

Ultravid wrote: »

We are still far from authentically implementing the Second Vatican Council. There will be no Vatican III in our lifetimes. The changes which are desired by Modernists (top pick for them is change in sexual moral teaching. Not gonna happen) won't occur in Vatican III or any other Council. They got their chance with Vatican II but didn't quite pull it off. Grrrrr that pesky Divine Guarantee*! They caused chaos right enough and we are dealing with some of the rotten fruits of liberals and modernists** now. We know that they will not prevail. Doesn't stop them trying though.

The Church teaches the faith and morals infallibly. This means we can find the true teaching of Christ which lead to our salvation. It doesn't mean that some people won't muck up majorly. But to reject the salvation offered by Christ because of a few bad eggs, or even were it a lot of bad eggs, would be spiritual suicide.

*And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. Mt. 16:18

**http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2002/jun/020618a.html

Brainwashed.

Cardinal will only step down if told by Pope

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