Cardinal will only step down if told by Pope

Winty

"The head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, facing calls to resign over revelations that he did not report complaints against a paedophile priest to police, said today that he will only step down if told to by the Pope."

from todays Irish Indo

Question:

Did Brady not break the law, perverting the course of justice?

WindSock

Well that's no surprise, the man only does what he is told. He has no mind of his own to work with.

Fratton Fred

Winty wrote: »

from todays Irish Indo

Question:

Did Brady not break the law, perverting the course of justice?

Yes.

The law should be changed so that anybody. Regardless of who you are, that is aware of any child abuse, or has child abuse reported to them, must report it. Otherwise they are as guilty as the person who carried it out.

Take away any ambiguity, any privileges and any decision making by people who are not trained to make those decisions.

mike65

The Bish Cardinal needs a right kick up the jacksie

Elenxor

The Catholic Church only follows the Laws of the Catholic Church...
The rest of us can just F*** off as far as they are concerned!!!:mad:

genericguy

at this stage, i have no respect for anyone who goes to mass anymore. i used to think hey, live and let live, but it has gotten to the stage where anyone who attends, and gives them money is a fcuking idiot. they raped you, they raped your kids, and they blame it on satan. and then they asked for you to donate the money to pay the legal bills. and you still go, and you still give it to them. fcuk all you catholics.

PeterIanStaker

Elenxor wrote: »

The Catholic Church only follows the Laws of the Catholic Church...
The rest of us can just F*** off as far as they are concerned!!!:mad:

Exactly.

Ze cardinal vos only following orders:mad:

Winty

genericguy wrote: »

at this stage, i have no respect for anyone who goes to mass anymore. i used to think hey, live and let live, but it has gotten to the stage where anyone who attends, and gives them money is a fcuking idiot. they raped you, they raped your kids, and they blame it on satan. and then they asked for you to donate the money to pay the legal bills. and you still go, and you still give it to them. fcuk all you catholics.

Thanks Generic Guy

I do agree, but back to the OP, did Brady break the law and if he did why will the courts not step up and do something

Jip

Did you hear that guy on Morning Ireland ? I thought I heard it all from the catholic church but this morning was really breathtaking, the excuses he was giving were unbelievable. And then the Monsignor guy defending him on Pat Kenny was from a different planet.

Winty wrote: »

Did Brady not break the law, perverting the course of justice?

According to the monsignor idiot he wasn't breaking any laws and had no obligation to tell the state or gardai about anything.

prinz

genericguy wrote: »

at this stage, i have no respect for anyone who goes to mass anymore.... fcuk all you catholics.

Why what did I do? I haven't abused anyone, raped anyone, I haven't excused anyone for the crimes they have committed, I fully support prison sentences for anyone who was involved directly or was involved in the cover up.

By the by the majority of abuse takes place in the home.. by parents and family members. **** all you parents, and grandparents, and children, and uncles, and aunts and cousins....

scargill

Winty wrote: »

Thanks Generic Guy

I do agree, but back to the OP, did Brady break the law and if he did why will the courts not step up and do something

That's what struck me when I heard him on the radio this morning. He reckons he did at the time what he felt was right. It wasn't right - it was wrong. It was wrong then and it is still wrong now. He didn't report a suspected crime to the authorities - surely he has questions to answer over this ?

Hope the guards are knocking on his door as we speak - I doubt it though, because the clergy are "different" in this country for some reason.

PeterIanStaker

Winty wrote: »

Thanks Generic Guy

I do agree, but back to the OP, did Brady break the law and if he did why will the courts not step up and do something

This is a case of Canon law -vs- Civil law, failure to report a crime is an offence under Civil law, but I dont know how Canon Law interprets it. He is trying to wash his hands of swearing these victims to silence by invoking some grey area of Canon Law.

North_West_Art

genericguy wrote: »

at this stage, i have no respect for anyone who goes to mass anymore. i used to think hey, live and let live, but it has gotten to the stage where anyone who attends, and gives them money is a fcuking idiot. they raped you, they raped your kids, and they blame it on satan. and then they asked for you to donate the money to pay the legal bills. and you still go, and you still give it to them.

+1

how many great minds have been lost to this institutions' program of brainwashing and fear? A male monarchy guilty of the most henious crimes against humanity... stop and think for a minute, and wonder how you would feel today, if no-one had told you that this bullsh1t ever existed

Winty

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

This is a case of Canon law -vs- Civil law, failure to report a crime is an offence under Civil law, but I dont know how Canon Law interprets it. He is trying to wash his hands of swearing these victims to silence by invoking some grey area of Canon Law.

Thanks Peter

Now things are clear, its the Church looking afer their house and dam the rest.

Mark200

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes.

The law should be changed so that anybody. Regardless of who you are, that is aware of any child abuse, or has child abuse reported to them, must report it. Otherwise they are as guilty as the person who carried it out.

Great, and thanks to your narrow-mindedness the children in question who suffered child abuse would now be criminals.

It's disgusting that this cardinal didn't report it, but how did he break the law??? I'm pretty sure preventing the course of justice only applies to things like people lying to the police about what they saw. He didn't prevent anything, he just omitted to do something about it.

ScumLord

prinz wrote: »

Why what did I do? I haven't abused anyone, raped anyone, I haven't excused anyone for the crimes they have committed, I fully support prison sentences for anyone who was involved directly or was involved in the cover up.

By the by the majority of abuse takes place in the home.. by parents and family members. **** all you parents, and grandparents, and children, and uncles, and aunts and cousins....

The church is an organisation that has along reputation of crimes against humanity and supporting them in any way means you contributing to the vile acts they continue to carry out.

There's nothing wrong with being Christian but after everything the catholic church has done I don't understand how anyone could support them.

Elenxor

Winty wrote: »

Thanks Generic Guy

I do agree, but back to the OP, did Brady break the law and if he did why will the courts not step up and do something

Because .........

They are afraid of the "silent majority"....the ones who insist that it's only a few bad apples and the rest are good and holy people.

Personally I think if the 'rest' were good and holy, they would resign from the

church en masse (no pun intended)

scargill

prinz wrote: »

By the by the majority of abuse takes place in the home.. by parents and family members. **** all you parents, and grandparents, and children, and uncles, and aunts and cousins....

True, but what the Catholic Church did was to conspire to keep it secret, and to keep the information from the authorities. It orchestrated a cover up through every level of its hierarchy from priests, bishops, cardinals and popes. that makes it different in my eyes.

super_furry

Same old, same old from the Catholic Church. Nothing ever changes with those in power and they're probably wondering what all the fuss is over themselves.

anti-venom

I heard Maurice Dooley on Pat Kenny's show this morning and he has put us straight on who is to blame. Apparently it was the police's failure in not catching Brendan Smyth that resulted in his continuing to abuse kids long after in became known he was a paedo. It was NOT Brady's place to make a complaint to the police. It beggars belief. But what's even more baffling is that they have any congretation left at all to preach to.

sbsquarepants

Seeing as the pope is now implicated in a cover up scandal of his own, i predict absolutely nothing to be done. Anybody surprised??

prinz

scargill wrote: »

True, but what the Catholic Church did was to conspire to keep it secret, and to keep the information from the authorities. It orchestrated a cover up through every level of its hierarchy from priests, bishops, cardinals and popes. that makes it different in my eyes.

+1 many were involved in a cover up. I hope they all pay the price.

bleg

Winty wrote: »

Thanks Peter

Now things are clear, its the Church looking afer their house and dam the rest.

That's pretty much been the unwritten rule of the Catholic Church since its inception.

prinz

ScumLord wrote: »

The church is an organisation that has along reputation of crimes against humanity and supporting them in any way means you contributing to the vile acts they continue to carry out.
There's nothing wrong with being Christian but after everything the catholic church has done I don't understand how anyone could support them.

Replace the Church with democracy and Christian with democrat...

Would you give up on democracy itself?

PeterIanStaker

Winty wrote: »

Thanks Peter

Now things are clear, its the Church looking afer their house and dam the rest.

I'm afraid so. Its sick. However, I want these "holy men" to keep coming out with this hypocritical nonsense, it shows them for what they are - evil. There is no way these people can believe in the Hell they threaten their flock with, because if they did, they wouldnt behave in this fashion. The whole enterprise, not only Catholicism but all religions, is built around power, control and fear.

Nodin

betafrog wrote: »

Fuck you Dolphin, and fuck you Whale!!!!

..and the poxy protoplasm that spawned the pair of them.

super_furry

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0315/abuse.html

Just reading this and every time I think I can't be more apauled or sickened by the Irish Catholic Church, they shock me.

"Speaking on Today with Pat Kenny, Monsignor Maurice Dooley, former Professor of Canon Law, said Cardinal Brady had no obligation to report anything to gardaí.

At the weekend, Dr Brady confirmed that he was present in 1975 when two young victims of the late Fr Brendan Smyth were asked to sign an oath of secrecy."

Sick, evil men.

sbsquarepants

I think the majority of church hierarchy over the years, over the centuries in fact, better hope that they peddle nothing more than bullsh.it, cos if there is such a thing as hell, they have got to be on the short list for admission. I'm actually sorry i'm an athiest because the thoughts of those bastards burning for all eternity makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

ScumLord

prinz wrote: »

Replace the Church with democracy and Christian with democrat...

Would you give up on democracy itself?

The church isn't anywhere close to democracy. There's a problem with politicians being more interested in their own career than doing the job they where elected to and there is greed and corruption but they answer to the people and we can get rid of them. The church considers itself a law onto itself, it's convicts people that have done nothing that out of the way (like having a child) to cover up the horrible things they've been up to the whole time.

prinz

ScumLord wrote: »

The church isn't anywhere close to democracy. There's a problem with politicians being more interested in their own career than doing the job they where elected to and there is greed and corruption but they answer to the people and we can get rid of them. The church considers itself a law onto itself.......

The problem is the Church isn't a law unto itself!!! It's up to our government to take some action. I would happily sit back and watch anyone involved in abuse or covering up abuse get dragged out of their office or church and subjected to the law of the land same as everyone else.

seamus

prinz wrote: »

Why what did I do? I haven't abused anyone, raped anyone, I haven't excused anyone for the crimes they have committed, I fully support prison sentences for anyone who was involved directly or was involved in the cover up.

But you're still providing support for the institution which perpetrated this cover up. It wasn't a few small groups here and there, the entire organisation from top to bottom was involved in this. Their rulebook basically "enforced" this cover up, and not once have they made any apologies for it or otherwise admitted that what they did was completely and utterly wrong.

So by supporting that organisation, you're tacitly approving of their actions in covering up the sexual abuse.

I'm not saying that you need to abandon your faith, far from it, but why aren't the congregations putting pressure on their own priests to force change from the bottom up? Withhold church donations, hold protests outside your own churches - let Rome know that its followers won't be happy until the organisation takes responsibility and changes itself completely.

By going to mass, you're supporting Rome and you're support what the organisation has done.

Your faith does not hinge on the existence of this organisation. The existence of the organisation hinges on your faith. Let them know that you're losing it.

But in general, the congregations refuse to accept that there was any wrongdoing.

Some choice quotes from newstalk interviews outside a church:

"Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Until a court finds him guilty, he's innocent" - Except that he's admitted it. Therefore, guilty.

"Sure it was thousands of years ago. It all happened so long ago now, we need to operate in the present" - WTF. That "thousands" is not a typo. One woman actually thinks it was thousands of years ago. And she didn't sound old.

So the congregations are not only supporting an institution that engaged in the wholesale cover up of child sexual abuse, but they also refuse to hear any evidence about it.

So therefore, Fnck you Catholics, fnck the whole lot of you.

WindSock

Quakerism ftw :cool:

genericguy

prinz wrote: »

Why what did I do? I haven't abused anyone, raped anyone, I haven't excused anyone for the crimes they have committed, I fully support prison sentences for anyone who was involved directly or was involved in the cover up.

By the by the majority of abuse takes place in the home.. by parents and family members. **** all you parents, and grandparents, and children, and uncles, and aunts and cousins....

not the same prinz, not even close. do you think for example if a father rapes his daughter or son, he can call up his co-worker, let's say another plumber, and ask him to help cover it up? and then, when it eventually gets out, do you think the gardaí and government will say "no, we're not arresting/punishing him, because he works for the plumbing company"?

WindSock

seamus wrote: »

"Sure it was thousands of years ago. It all happened so long ago now, we need to operate in the present" - WTF. That "thousands" is not a typo. One woman actually thinks it was thousands of years ago. And she didn't sound old.

Maybe she thought they were asking her about the late J.C dying on the cross?

prinz

seamus wrote: »

So by supporting that organisation, you're tacitly approving of their actions in covering up the sexual abuse..

Except I am absolutely not tacitly approving anything. By being a voice within the Chuch calling for change and letting my personal feelings known every time I have contact with a member of the clergy IMO that can do a hell of a lot more than sitting in an armchair and just 'fncking' people out of it......... are you actively doing anything to try and bring change?

seamus wrote: »

I'm not saying that you need to abandon your faith, far from it, but why aren't the congregations putting pressure on their own priests to force change from the bottom up? Withhold church donations, hold protests outside your own churches - let Rome know that its followers won't be happy until the organisation takes responsibility and changes itself completely...

People are.

seamus wrote: »

By going to mass, you're supporting Rome and you're support what the organisation has done.

No, I am not.

seamus wrote: »

Your faith does not hinge on the existence of this organisation. The existence of the organisation hinges on your faith. Let them know that you're losing it..

I have done so.

seamus wrote: »

But in general, the congregations refuse to accept that there was any wrongdoing...

What congregations?

seamus wrote: »

So the congregations are not only supporting an institution that engaged in the wholesale cover up of child sexual abuse, but they also refuse to hear any evidence about it..

Says who? Who refuses to hear any evidence?

seamus wrote: »

So therefore, Fnck you Catholics, fnck the whole lot of you.

Fnck me.. just no need to abandon my Catholic faith, far from it right. Just fncked if I don't..

Sulmac

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

This is a case of Canon law -vs- Civil law, failure to report a crime is an offence under Civil law, but I dont know how Canon Law interprets it. He is trying to wash his hands of swearing these victims to silence by invoking some grey area of Canon Law.

Canon law isn't law. It's not made by the Oireachtas, it's not enforceable by the courts service, and it's not applicable to all our citizens. Ergo, it's not [part of] the law of the land.

Using Canon law as a way to justify this is disgusting (I know you aren't, but the Catholic Church is).

Fear Uladh

Just found this, it seems we aren't the only ones being hit by this, pope john paul 2nd wouldn't even apologise to this poor chap, fair play on him for saying something. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8564378.stm

genericguy

prinz wrote: »

The problem is the Church isn't a law unto itself!!! It's up to our government to take some action. I would happily sit back and watch anyone involved in abuse or covering up abuse get dragged out of their office or church and subjected to the law of the land same as everyone else.

that's not enough for me anymore. the fcking headshops hurt nobody, one or two gobshytes hurt themselves and they're effectively being shut down. a shop gets a fine if it sells cigarettes to kids. people in this country end up in prison over dog licences ffs, yet if you have a little white square on our shirt collar you can fcking bugger anybody with impunity. how do no catholics see that this is not right?

prinz

genericguy wrote: »

...do you think the gardaí and government will say "no, we're not arresting/punishing him, because he works for the plumbing company"?

..and who is to blame for not enforcing the law in this case? The abuser or those in authority who know abuse has taken place/and been covered up and don't do anything about it?

Sulmac

Chillaxe wrote: »

Just found this, it seems we aren't the only ones being hit by this, pope john paul 2nd wouldn't even apologise to this poor chap, fair play on him for saying something. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8564378.stm

The past few weeks a large number of abuse cases involving Catholic priests have been made public in Austria, Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland.

I'm pretty sure that this won't be the end of it, either.

prinz

genericguy wrote: »

how do no catholics see that this is not right?

I am Catholic, and I'm with you 100%, it's not right. Never has been, never will be.

derfderf

If these people actually do believe in god i wonder who they really think god is gonna condemn, a promiscuous gay man that uses condoms to protect himself, or people that covered up the abuse of young children.
Their whole thought process baffles me. If i believed in Jesus i'd definitely be finding my own way of praising him now.

genericguy

prinz wrote: »

I am Catholic, and I'm with you 100%, it's not right. Never has been, never will be.

stop being so well adjusted i'm trying to rant

ScumLord

prinz wrote: »

The problem is the Church isn't a law unto itself!!! It's up to our government to take some action. I would happily sit back and watch anyone involved in abuse or covering up abuse get dragged out of their office or church and subjected to the law of the land same as everyone else.

But they do see themselves as above the law, they see themselves as doing gods work which is more important than any peoples republic.

As far as I'm concerned the Catholic organisation is an old, outdated religious dictatorship/boy clubs there's no amount of arrests or days in court that will undo what they've done. The church has started down a one way street to oblivion, it's a sinking ship and I don't see why anyone would want to go down with it.

sadieirl

genericguy wrote: »

at this stage, i have no respect for anyone who goes to mass anymore. i used to think hey, live and let live, but it has gotten to the stage where anyone who attends, and gives them money is a fcuking idiot. they raped you, they raped your kids, and they blame it on satan. and then they asked for you to donate the money to pay the legal bills. and you still go, and you still give it to them. fcuk all you catholics.

I completely agree - I am so shocked that some of my circle of friends still go to mass. I have no problem with faith but the RC church is just a big paedofile ring.

prinz

genericguy wrote: »

stop being so well adjusted i'm trying to rant

Personally I'd suggest a specialist Garda unit similar to the Criminal Assets Bureau and give them extra powers to deal with this, enough extra-judicial reports and enquiries. Time for some zero tolerance, starting with the cardinal.

the_dark_side

what if someone was to make a citizens arrest? Seriously, would this be possible... put the law back into the hands of the people, haul in a few of the NAMA 10 along with Daly for good measure

genericguy

prinz wrote: »

Personally I'd suggest a specialist Garda unit similar to the Criminal Assets Bureau and give them extra powers to deal with this, enough extra-judicial reports and enquiries. Time for some zero tolerance, starting with the cardinal.

agreed. i actually cannot understand at all though how so many people can actually put their hand in their pocket to feed this money hungry molesting machine though. as long as people keep going to mass, these people will be allowed to continue what they are doing. time for everyone affected/annoyed by the church to start burning them down.

philologos

They should have all been brought through the courts rather than letting this continue. What is coming out is starting to show that the problem is deeper than what many people thought. If the RCC wants to redeem itself at all after this it will have to stop being in denial and being more transparent. This is absolutely wrong, and it sickens me to see the scale of this.

anti-venom

prinz wrote: »

Personally I'd suggest a specialist Garda unit similar to the Criminal Assets Bureau and give them extra powers to deal with this, enough extra-judicial reports and enquiries. Time for some zero tolerance, starting with the cardinal.

Agreed. This might go a long way towards finally uncovering the wrongdoers and their facilitators in the hierarchy. The Catholic Church can't be trusted to police themselves. They are thoroughly corrupt and their hiding behind canon law is obscene. Canon law should have about the same respect as the 'laws' of the Boy Scouts, ie fine within your organisation but under no circumstances should it trump or supercede the law of the state.

genericguy

the_dark_side wrote: »

what if someone was to make a citizens arrest? Seriously, would this be possible... put the law back into the hands of the people, haul in a few of the NAMA 10 along with Daly for good measure

citizens arrest does exist, but it only applies to particular crimes, you'd have to check whether or not they'd meet the criteria for you to be able to arrest them. personally i think you should round up a few priests and stick a broken bottle up their holes. see how long they maintain a wall of silence then.