is anyone else disgusted at this?

If you think I'm wrong about NAMA, what do you think about Joseph Stiglitz's criticism of the plan?

"Countries which allow banks to go under by following the ordinary rules of capitalism have done fine. The US has let 100 banks go this year alone, as did Sweden and Norway in their crises." As well as commenting that in Ireland, "this bank bailout is a simple transfer from taxpayers to bondholders, and it will saddle generations to come. The only thing that might give you solace is that, as chief economist of the World Bank, we see this type of thing happening in banana republics all over the world. Whenever a banking crisis happens, the financial sector uses the turmoil as a mechanism to transfer wealth from the general population to themselves. I’ve been very disappointed to see that it has happened, not only in banana republics, but in advanced industrialised countries."

Source: thepost.ie

dotsman wrote: »

Will every debt be repaid? No. Some developers will go to the wall. Those that survive, will survive by repaying their debts. I'd rather 80 cent to the euro over 10 years, than 30 cent to the euro today.

There's absolutely nothing in that article about NAMA. Kinsella's article appears to very much support the ideals of NAMA.

If you read the article, he was talking about the next housing boom in 2020, which is what the gov't are banking on, save the banks and developers now, build 'em up again then. Honestly, is this not plausible? The "ideals of NAMA" isn't NAMA, I'm supportive of the ideals of Marxism, it doesn't mean that I want it.

They all go to the wall, we go to the wall. Weather you like it or not, too much of our economy became dependant on construction. I get the feeling you would rather have this country collapse, just to "get back at the developers" rather than see this country recover (and some/many of the developers survive).

Do you think I'm that spiteful that I'd rather see our entire economy contract to the level of the 1930s just to "get back at the developers"? That is an absolutely retarded statement and is totally untrue. I know our economy was linked heavily with developers, that's why I'd rather see a break away from it. I'd rather see higher tax and pay higher tax to support actual economic growth and infrastructure, rather than stabilise a minority. Construction might have been big 2-3 years ago, it has significantly contracted to warrant some other alternative.

What ECB money? If we renege on the debts already in place, who the hell would lend to us (besides the IMF).

Where do you think we're getting the money for NAMA from? Borrowed from Europe, but it's still our money (the state) who's borrowing it and we're the ones going to have to pay it back. Honestly, do you not think it's absolutely undemocratic to be using tax payers money to sub a private industry?

Some are not economically viable and will go to the wall. Others will be economically viable in years to come if they can survive the downturn.

Yes but they're still receiving state support, they're private entities, they should all be subject to the market, it's capitalism and they jumped on that bandwagon when it suited.

And people were happy to pay these prices. And vote for politicians who supported this economic policy. And accept their tax reductions, And accept their wage increases.Over the past 10 years, this country was very happy to fcuk itself up in the name of short term profits.

Yes, let's blame ourselves, it's really the people's fault and not the fault of unscrupulous banks and shoddy developers who were pushing out houses to beat the band. Also it wasn't any fault of the media or government, no there was no orthodox of "get on the ladder before it's too late".

I agree. It was one of our worst economic policies of all time. But what's done is done. I'd rather fix the damage than just moan about it.

"What's done is done", we're being told to be positive but defeatist? I'm sick of hearing this line, it's just a cop out, what's done can be undone if we invest now in the proper infrastructure and not propping up a failed banking system. It's worked in Sweden, why can't it not work here.

There won't be an economy if we let the country go to the wall. Forget 30 to 40 years. We need to survive the next 3-4. Once stabilised, then we can look to the future. That's what NAMA is about - stabilising the economy. It's not a magic fix and won't turn the country around. It will, however, stop the current massive decline, draw a line in the sand and allow us to begin to go about growing the economy again.

There will, because we can invest in actual industry now. It won't take 30 years, it could be done in less time. Example would be energy, if we invested in some nuclear energy and renewables, we'd have energy security at the cost of €30 billion. What company isn't going to be attracted to a country with not only low energy costs but energy security. Also ESB runs as a profit making semi-state body (i.e it has to make a profit) if it was fully public, then we'd change this legislation, take a hit on energy investment (i.e. not proift making, more profit supporting). Quick example, extremely effective according to Anthony Sweeney (another economist).

i snubbed an invite to glenda dog gilsons birthday aswell that night im suprised that didnt make the news to be honest

She said her boyfriend was asleep when she tried to contact him in the early hours of the morning so they had arrived in Morocco by the time he got her messages.

He must feel like a tit. His misses fecking off with some bloke like that.

Biggins wrote: »

Now they are going on strike due to government cuts - ON THE DAY - when after FOUR years of waiting for an MRI scan for our child!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0309/pay.html

UN-FCUKIN' BELIEVABLE!!!

:mad:

I've said it before and people are probably tired of me saying it, it's fucking disgraceful. Unions are like the government, fighting for scraps while the patient suffers. They're absolute gangsters, looking after themselves, when the times were good they were ready to roll over for the government like a well trained poodle. Now, when the chips are down, unemployment is rising all they care about is that measley 6% pay increase or whatever they've sought. I'm all about workers rights, but not to the detriment of patients care, why the fuck do they go into this field, is it for the money? Sickening even just reading that article. Regardless of pay increases they were once entitled to, regardless of the shitty management of hospitals, does primum non nocere mean nothing anymore or is that just for idealistic fools?
Seriously I'm disgusted by this government, how in the name of God can any human being with some level of compassion do this to those they're supposed to represent? Economy is one thing, but I don't think I'm alone in saying that the life of people matters more. Albeit the health care they deserve, the education they should receive and the employment opportunities that should be afforded them. It's amazing how much we're letting these bastards shit on us, while An Taoiseach spends €9 million on "Advisers", how many hospital beds or staff could that have paid for?

the_dark_side wrote: »

No, I certainly dont... and what I fail to see is how some members of the Dail, of an aknowledged level of intelligence, seem to grind to a pace of non production. I saw her interviewed in footage from 198? and she seemed bright, enthusiastic, highly communicative and someone who you would have thought to be a high achiever. But years (and the media) have worn her... her spirit has dwindled and hasnt even forced a smile since around 1999...
seriously, health should be run by health professionals,
trade and employment should be run by people with senior management experience,
transport should be in the hands of transport managers etc etc

Yeh but the front line there the other week with Bill Cullen and all that, there was an FF representative on who countered this argument saying "that's a technocracy and we live in democracy". Yes because democracy has worked out so well in this country...:rolleyes: I agree with you though, the country would be better run with people that know how to run it.