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Abortion (may contain details that some might find upsetting)

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    #32
    brummytom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    Can any of the medheads on here get some proper facts for me please? Abortionfacts.com is hardly a legible source.
    I'd say the NHS would be the most reputable source:
    Early medical abortion (up to 9 weeks of pregnancy)

    An early medical abortion involves taking two different medicines, 48 hours apart. The effect of the medication will be similar to an early natural miscarriage.

    After your initial visit to see the doctor, you will have two more appointments on different days. On your first visit you will be given a tablet called mifepristone, which blocks the hormone that makes the lining of the womb suitable for the fertilised egg. After taking the first tablet, you will be able to go home, and can continue with your normal, everyday activities.

    Two days later, on your second visit to the hospital, or clinic, you will be given the second medicine, prostaglandin. Within 4-6 hours of taking prostaglandin, the lining of the womb breaks down and is lost, along with the embryo, through bleeding from the vagina. This part of the process can be painful, but a painkiller can be taken to help ease.

    The medicines that are used during an early medical abortion may make you feel sick, and you may vomit, or have diarrhoea.

    Vacuum aspiration or suction termination (from seven to 15 weeks of pregnancy):
    Vacuum aspiration, or suction termination is a procedure that involves using gentle suction to remove the foetus from the womb. The procedure usually takes between five and 10 minutes, and can be carried out under a local or general anaesthetic.

    The entrance to the womb (cervix) is dilated (opened) to allow access to the contents. To soften the cervix, and make it easier to open, a tablet may be placed in the vagina, a few hours before the abortion. A small, plastic suction tube, connected to a pump, is then inserted into the womb and used to remove the foetus and surrounding tissue.

    After a vacuum aspiration abortion, you will usually be able to go home the same day. However, following the procedure, you may experience a little bleeding, for up to 14 days.

    Late medical abortion (from 13 weeks of pregnancy)

    As well as being used for early abortion, mifepristone and prostaglandin can also be used for abortion later in pregnancy. However, the abortion will take longer, and more than one dose of prostaglandin may be needed. This type of abortion is similar to having a late natural miscarriage. Following the procedure, you may be able to return home the same day, but sometimes an overnight stay in hospital is required.

    Surgical dilation and evacuation (D&E) (from 15 weeks of pregnancy):
    Surgical dilation and evacuation (D&E) is a procedure that is carried out under general anaesthetic. The neck of the womb (cervix) is gently stretched and dilated (opened), and forceps and a suction tube are used to remove the foetus. The procedure usually takes between 10-20 minutes to perform and, if you are healthy, and there are no complications, you may be able to return home the same day. You may have some bleeding after the abortion for up to 14 days.

    Late abortion (20-24 weeks)

    There are two options for a late abortion carried out between 20-24 weeks.

    Surgical two-stage abortion:
    The first is known as a surgical two-stage abortion because there are two stages to it, each requiring a general anaesthetic. Stage one involves stopping the heart beat of the foetus and softening the neck of the womb (cervix). Stage two is carried out the following day and involves removing the foetus and surrounding tissue using the D&E method explained above. Surgical two-stage abortions usually require an overnight stay in hospital.

    Medically induced abortion:
    The second option, known as a medically induced abortion, is similar to a late natural miscarriage. The medicine prostaglandin is injected into the womb, causing it to contract strongly, as in labour. This can last for between six and 12 hours. During the process, you will remain awake and may be given medicines to control the pain. Afterwards, the D&E process, explained above, may be used to ensure that the womb is completely empty. You will usually need to stay overnight in hospital.

    Source: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/How-is-it-performed.aspx

    The same methods, obviously not as played up as much as the descriptions in H.S's post; but still every bit as sickening


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    #33
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Exasperated wrote: »
    Heres an idea.Next time you provide ''unbiased'' info in relation to abortion maybe try an actual unbiased source, like one not sponsored by a pro-life online shop namely ''heritage house'' whose range of quality products seem focused round pro life ideaologies.Just a thaught

    To be fair, he never used the word "unbiased" in his post.


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    #34
    soccymonster
    Registered Users Posts: 9,553 ✭✭✭soccymonster


    Maybe it's just the wording but those methods of abortion are just cruel and no human being (no matter how old) deserves that.

    Ok, i don't know all the science and religous bits behind it but i've always had an anti-abortion opinion. I just think that every human has a right to live.

    Edit: whats this about the site now?...


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    #35
    D4RK ONION
    Moderators Posts: 8,678 ✭✭✭D4RK ONION


    But he was tyring to fight his pro-life corner and as such his link could be seen as trying to be unbiased in an attempt to bolster his argument?


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    #36
    hitlersson666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭hitlersson666


    Exasperated wrote: »
    Heres an idea.Next time you provide ''unbiased'' info in relation to abortion maybe try an actual unbiased source, like one not sponsored by a pro-life online shop namely ''heritage house'' whose range of quality products seem focused round pro life ideaologies.Just a thaught

    Of course! which is why I then posted it from a pro-Choice website :rolleyes:


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    #37
    brummytom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    D4RK ONION wrote: »
    But he was tyring to fight his pro-life corner and as such his link could be seen as trying to be unbiased in an attempt to bolster his argument?
    But the information was accurate. Just because the source was biased doesn't mean it was wrong


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    #38
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    brummytom wrote: »
    But the information was accurate. Just because the source was biased doesn't mean it was wrong

    Being biased affects accuracy, greatly.


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    #39
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Sligo Brewer's previous post deleted for being off-topic.

    I don't see any reason to lock this thread any time soon, so long as posters make an effort to argue their points maturely. Off-topic and abusive posts will be dealt with as normal.


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    #40
    seanybiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    dreamers75 wrote: »
    mothers choice.


    her decision alone not irelands as to whether she can raise the child if she feels she cant its up to her onlt god people see it as murder. normal people see it as a choice.
    strange. Im not a god person at all and I see it as murder.


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    #41
    Pygmalion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭Pygmalion


    dreamers75 wrote: »
    mothers choice.


    her decision alone not irelands as to whether she can raise the child if she feels she cant its up to her onlt god people see it as murder. normal people see it as a choice.

    Rather than type it out again I'll just quote what I said earlier.
    Pygmalion wrote: »
    The main thing that annoys me about the abortion argument is when you get the militant atheists who cannot for the life of them realise that abortion isn't a religious thing.
    Someone says they're against abortion and all of a sudden they're assumed to be some bible-freak, because of course there's no way an atheist could see a problem with it.

    You're a perfect example of this, thanks.


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    #42
    brummytom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    Being biased affects accuracy, greatly.
    It affects credibility/realiability; not accuracy.

    I'm English. I could tell you now that the English football team are superior to the Irish Football Team. I have a clear bias; but I'm also in possession of the facts that they have won a World Cup while Ireland haven't, and could compare the matches of the two teams and find English to be better.

    While I have a bias, it doesn't need to affect my accuracy at all. Saying 'England are better' means nothing, it's purely bias; but if I provide proof to support my argument then I can be accurate and still hold bias.


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    #43
    psycho-hope
    Registered Users Posts: 7,245 ✭✭✭psycho-hope


    I'm very much pro choice, its up to the women and her partner if he is still on the scene.


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    #44
    Arcade Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭Arcade Panda


    Pro-choice all the way. Everyone should have the right to choose.

    Personally I don't know what I'd do if I found out tomorrow I was pregnent.....I'd like to think that I'd keep it. I don't think I'd be able to get rid of it. That's just me though and I wouldn't have any problem with anyone in the same situation having an abortion. What's right for you is right for you.


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    #45
    illiop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 682 ✭✭✭illiop


    I'm Pro-life. While I see the reasons for abortion and they are perfectly legitimate but I still can't get over the fact that it's taking someones life.

    I don't really understand how people can see it as otherwise. We all agree that life stops when the heart stops beating (even brain-dead people are considered to be alive if you can keep their heart beating-though i'm not sure i agree with that) so surely by that logic life begins when the heart starts beating, which is, I think, about 5 weeks into pregnancy. After that the only reason I could see for abortion is if the pregnancy will almost certainly kill the mother.

    There are people out there that would do anything for a child, I think some sort of system should be set up by which mother can more easily give there babies up for adoption, not within Ireland because it's just to small of a country. I know adoption is said to be the hardest thing anyone can do but really if the choice is kill it or (hopefully) give it the life that you feel you you can't I'm pretty sure a lot of women would go the hard road.


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    #46
    Konata
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,164 ✭✭✭Konata


    hitlersson666 wrote: »
    I may be young but trust me I know always to use a condom
    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    Do you know how to use it correctly though?
    hitlersson666 wrote: »
    Actually yes i did a few sessions with the yhs in cork and in school

    While learning how to properly use a condom is essential, putting it into practice is another story. Try doing it in the dark, after several/many drinks when you're clearly not thinking straight. Suddenly it be becomes a bit harder to determine (or often even care) whether or not it's on correctly.Something as simple as using Vaseline as a lubricant (which many people - incorrectly - do) can cause a condom to break. Neither of you may notice.

    Yes, you should be responsible enough not to have sex when you're plastered drunk but we're young, it has/will happen to many of us. You don't even need to be drunk for things to go wrong, often unawares. Condoms are not 100% effective. Though rare, a girl can still get pregnant even without having full intercourse. It's cases like these (aswell as rape and illness) where I feel women should have a choice about whether or not to terminate a pregnancy.

    Imo, not being financially/physically/mentally capable of raising a child can do alot of harm. Some say abortions should only be carried out if the mother's health is at risk. But what about after the child is born? What about her mental health? Dealing with so much you're not ready to massively increases the probability of developing post-natal depression. It may get so bad that the mother can no longer care for the child. Both suffer negative consequences. It's proven that the childhood environment is essential to their mental and physical well-being as adults.

    While I'm pro-choice, I don't believe that abortion should be taken lightly. If I myself were to get pregnant now, I'm almost certain I'd have an abortion but that's not to say that I would find it an easy decision to make. I know that it would be something that would stay with me for the rest of my life, something I'd always wonder about. But I know that I couldn't raise a child now. I couldn't give them everything that I grew up with, I'm neither mentally nor physically capable of doing so.

    The solution is, of course, not to get pregnant. Unfortunately, despite a person's best intentions, that is alot more easily said than done.


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    #47
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    hitlersson666 wrote: »
    That said the behavior of some people is a joke and there reason for abortion is mad eg.''I don't want to get fat'' It may be a ''thing'' but it can fell pain like we do and to take away somethings life willingly is murder!

    I may be young but trust me I know always to use a condom

    (can someone add a poll as well please)

    Rubbish. And even if it was true that some people abuse the system, thats hardly a good enough reason for a blanket ban.
    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    Do you know how to use it correctly though?

    Fair point. You'd be amazed how many men can't do this when drunk and how many girls can't do it at all.


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    #48
    norwegianwood
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭norwegianwood


    I totally see the pro choice point of view, but I just can't agree with it. It isn't the child's fault how they were concieved, and their life shouldn't be taken from them before they even get to live it. Not when there are so many couples out there who can't have kids, and would be glad of the chance to raise a child as their own.
    But that's just my fairly useless opinion.


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    #49
    Ginja Ninja
    Registered Users Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Ginja Ninja


    First of all: There was a contraversial argument and no one invited me,WTF?

    I'll say now,I've not read all this thread[my internet takes 10 minutes to load a page]

    I'm pro-choice,because the simple fact of the matter is no one has any opinion on what should happen except the mother who is carrying the child and anyone else SHE[no one else] deems to have one.

    There are enough unwanted children in the world and Life is easy enough to ruin completely even without having a child you're not ready/able to care for.

    I'm pro stem cell research as well,but that's a whole other topic.I know it sounds heartless,but I value a life that has experienced the world over one that is still forming.

    Peoples attitude towards this are so wrong IMO[not calling anyone out] but when people judge someone on opting for an abortion,simply put:you have no right to an opinion on this and even less of a right to force that opinion on someone who is experiencing the problem first hand.


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    #50
    Aoibheann
    Registered Users Posts: 6,383 ✭✭✭Aoibheann


    I used to be very (I would use overly tbh) opinionated on this subject, but like the rest of my opinions, it's one that has mellowed somewhat. I still have the same personal stance on it, but I can understand the other side of the argument.

    Personally, I'm anti-abortion, purely because I don't think it's something I could ever go through with. For me, it's actually a scientific thing as opposed to a religious thing (I'm an atheist). It's that we genuinely don't know enough to pinpoint precisely where life actually begins. Some say it's from fertilisation, some say it's when the heart starts beating.. But I don't think we know enough about neural development to decide when any form of senses are in any way developed.

    But honestly, that's just me. I can completely see where the other side are coming from. Sometimes it's just not feasible for somebody to go through with a pregnancy. The X case for example. I'll maybe make a post on that at a later date if anyone's got an interest and doesn't know the details?

    As I've said, I'm anti-abortion from a personal point of view, but I would say I'm pro-choice. That's my personal choice, but I understand that it's necessary, horrible things do happen, accidents can also happen, and I agree with the two below posts absolutely.

    Oh, and to completely fuck with your heads, I'm also pro embryonic stem cell research, with only a couple of provisions.


    phlegms wrote: »
    I'm fervently on the pro-choice side of things.
    Regardless of whether I think the semantics of it are right or wrong, I think it is absolutely vital that it still be an option available for people in particularly fúcked up circumstances.
    Boston wrote: »
    At your young age I take it you haven't done anything really stupid yet. Give it time, eventually you will. I wonder if you'll think it right to pay for one simple mistake for the rest of your life then.


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    #51
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Pro-choice because the argument generally is wrong.

    People who want abortions will have abortions. The law just decides if they have them here or not or have them with approved doctors or some dodgy doctor performing illegal abortions which people tend to assume isn't happening in Ireland but I doubt thats the case.

    Basically a band called anti-flag put it best when they said, "the rich will fly to far off lands, the poor will stay and pray, their backalley abortion is clean and safe. You can't make it go away so why endanger womens lives, because the issue here for you isn't life, it's control!"

    We know its going to happen, people who are against it are just IMO, forcing their views on other people which they know won't wash with those people and those people will go get abortions anyway they can if they want to have them. They do this knowing that it will negatively effect all involved but its the principal that counts right? Not how it pans out in real life for real people.

    Last time I posted this my point that it is going to happen anyway just got ignored and they start going on about the rights of the child as usual ignoring that the abortion is going to happen anyway. As long as that is how the discussion is going to go, debate isn't possible IMO. As long as it is about protecting people from their own decisions, we are having the wrong discussion especially when most people involved have never been in the situation.


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    #52
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    I used to be quite anti-abortion but now I'm not sure. Someone I know very well had an abortion and I don't think any less of her because of it. I suppose I probably lean towards pro-abortion at this stage.


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    #53
    Davidius
    Registered Users Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭Davidius


    Ginja Ninja wrote: »
    I'm pro-choice,because the simple fact of the matter is no one has any opinion on what should happen except the mother who is carrying the child and anyone else SHE[no one else] deems to have one.

    Peoples attitude towards this are so wrong IMO[not calling anyone out] but when people judge someone on opting for an abortion,simply put:you have no right to an opinion on this and even less of a right to force that opinion on someone who is experiencing the problem first hand.
    You can't really tell people they don't have a right to an opinion on the matter if they believe that the death of another human being is involved. In the same vein could you not say that you can't take a view on the execution of a convict because you were not directly involved? To them you are saying that you don't have a right to comment on a murder. I think the flaw in that is that you're not really seeing the reasons as to why somebody would be against abortion (and I mean that in the nicest way possible).
    thebman wrote: »
    People who want abortions will have abortions. The law just decides if they have them here or not or have them with approved doctors or some dodgy doctor performing illegal abortions which people tend to assume isn't happening in Ireland but I doubt thats the case.

    We know its going to happen, people who are against it are just IMO, forcing their views on other people which they know won't wash with those people and those people will go get abortions anyway they can if they want to have them. They do this knowing that it will negatively effect all involved but its the principal that counts right? Not how it pans out in real life for real people.
    A lot of illegal activities happen despite the fact that there's laws against them. One could argue that if the state opted to legalise it in order to protect women then they are directly saying that the health of the mother is worth the death of her child. In this case it really is the principle that counts as the state giving the right to a person to kill another against their will leads to a blur in the line.
    Last time I posted this my point that it is going to happen anyway just got ignored and they start going on about the rights of the child as usual ignoring that the abortion is going to happen anyway. As long as that is how the discussion is going to go, debate isn't possible IMO. As long as it is about protecting people from their own decisions, we are having the wrong discussion especially when most people involved have never been in the situation.
    Well that's what it all comes down to, whether the embryo/foetus can be considered to be alive/human and thus have rights. The fact that it happens anyway would be seen as an issue with enforcement. There's that whole issue of state sanctioned killing again.


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    #54
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    I am pro-choice, and one of the few things I hate about living in Ireland is that abortion is still outlawed here.

    Basically, I don't value the "life" of a bunch of cells or an embryo; I don't see why it should be given equivalent human rights when it's not a fully developed human. If a woman falls pregnant and doesn't want the child, she shouldn't have to go through that pregnancy just because a bunch of people who have absolutely fcuk-all to do with her situation label her a murderer.

    The "you shouldn't have got pregnant" argument is complete bollocks. Contraception is not always 100% effective and even if contraception was not used, are two people who are irresponsible enough to have unprotected sex really responsible enough to become parents?

    As for late term abortions, this is where I'd be of different opinion to most pro-choice people. While it's obviously not the desired outcome, I don't have any problem with them tbh.

    And I understand not all pro-life arguments are based on religion, but I have yet to read any pro-life comments (religious or non-religious) that will convince me that abortion is worng.


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    #55
    Fad
    Registered Users Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    Just as an aside, a lot have this has been said before in an early C&H thread "Your most politically incorrect opinion", there are some excellent posts in there (Particularly Piste's comments on the value of life).


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    #56
    Sophsxxx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 285 ✭✭Sophsxxx


    I don't think there is a right or a wrong when it comes to abortion. It's an individual's choicen as to whether or not they can go through with a pregnancy.
    And the 'they shouldn't have been so irresponsible then' argument is complete bull. Everyone makes mistakes....some things just happen that we wish we can change, but can't.
    No one should cast judgement on people that have abortions or unprotected sex. It's a highly emotional and scary time in a person's life. Different people have different circumstances and I think their decisions should be respected.


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    #57
    Davidius
    Registered Users Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭Davidius


    KnifeWRENCH wrote: »
    Basically, I don't value the "life" of a bunch of cells or an embryo; I don't see why it should be given equivalent human rights when it's not a fully developed human.
    By the same token some would argue as to why it shouldn't be given human rights if it's 'human', although one that is yet to be born.
    And I understand not all pro-life arguments are based on religion, but I have yet to read any pro-life comments (religious or non-religious) that will convince me that abortion is worng.
    Well they can't really convince that it's wrong if you have a definite stance on the basis of their argument (i.e. you believe embryos aren't entitled to human rights).

    On the note of late term abortions, do you believe that it is OK to kill a baby that was born long before it was due yet managed to survive? Would it not be considered similar to aborting a foetus at the same stage?


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    #58
    hitlersson666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭hitlersson666


    People do not need to suffer for there parents mistakes!!! if a condom rippes/pill fails then you get the morning after pill! Thats what it's there for


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    #59
    seanybiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    Ginja Ninja wrote: »
    First of all: There was a contraversial argument and no one invited me,WTF?

    I'll say now,I've not read all this thread[my internet takes 10 minutes to load a page]

    I'm pro-choice,because the simple fact of the matter is no one has any opinion on what should happen except the mother who is carrying the child and anyone else SHE[no one else] deems to have one.

    There are enough unwanted children in the world and Life is easy enough to ruin completely even without having a child you're not ready/able to care for.

    I'm pro stem cell research as well,but that's a whole other topic.I know it sounds heartless,but I value a life that has experienced the world over one that is still forming.

    Peoples attitude towards this are so wrong IMO[not calling anyone out] but when people judge someone on opting for an abortion,simply put:you have no right to an opinion on this and even less of a right to force that opinion on someone who is experiencing the problem first hand.

    Hmm you want to make a comment just because its a controversial thread? Ok whatever makes you happy.
    You posted your opinion then said that because we havent had this experience ourselves, we have no right to have an opinion. How are we supposed to have a grown up conversation about a topic without having an opinion. You stated you are for stem cell research, you where right though. Thats a different thread altogether, why bring it up then?
    Not getting onto you but I a damn well allowed have an opinion on something, as is everyone else in the world. People dont have to agree, thats what makes the world go around. You dont need to have something personally happen to you to be allowed have an opinion. Im against war even though I was never in one.


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    #60
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    hitlersson666 wrote: »
    People do not need to suffer for there parents mistakes!!! if a condom rippes/pill fails then you get the morning after pill! Thats what it's there for

    Ok. Morning after pill. Explain to me how a minor goes about obtaining the morning after pill? It is a prescription drug after all. So you need your sixy euro doctors fee, if you doctor is even open on Sunday morning. Then you need to find a pharmacy and pay another 20 - 30 euro, on top of that you need to do all this without your parents finding out. So basically you need to pretty well organised to get a morning after pill as a kid.


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    #61
    hitlersson666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭hitlersson666


    You Go to the yhs or a doctor!!! A trip to england costs much more and remember the mental effect a abortion has!!! People dont get over that type of shi t easily!!!


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