Abortion (may contain details that some might find upsetting)

hitlersson666

So fellow c&h's what's your view's

Mine are that its wrong unless it's for the health of the mother or rape!
If someone is stupid enough to have unprotected sex and they get pregnant that it's there responsibility

Pygmalion

Was wondering when someone would stop talking about starting this thread and actually start it :P.

I'll leave it unanswered for a while as I haven't really read up a huge amount on it apart from what I learned in religion class in school (lol learning about something slightly complicated in religion class).

Insect Overlord

This should be interesting! :cool:

phlegms

I'm fervently on the pro-choice side of things.
Regardless of whether I think the semantics of it are right or wrong, I think it is absolutely vital that it still be an option available for people in particularly fúcked up circumstances.

D4RK ONION

Pro-choice also. It's your own body, and I don't see why people who believe you shouldn't do it should have a choice in the matter. If they don't want to avail of such services or are horrified by them, then that's their deal.

I got into a huge fight with a classmate in college once on this subject, who was quite religious and refused to see or even accept my reasoning. I haven't really talked about it since.

Fad

Pro-choice.

Dont really regard an embryo to be life, really depends on how developed it is. But a blob of cells is not a life to me (And I dont think I could ever be convinced otherwise).

That said the more the thing develops, the more the line begins to blur. Late term abortions are just ridiculous. The foetus should not have been allowed to develop that far if it's going to be killed.

I dunno, I have a fairly strong opinion about life and value of life (Or lack there of), but I dont feel like arguing about it!

Hardcore pro-life people annoy me to no end though. Less to do with them blocking the availability of abortion (Being pro-choice, obviously I think people should have the choice, and they should make their own mind up) and more to do with the implications on embryonic stem cell research. But that's a seperate issue altogether!)

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrm7W3zGSoA

D4RK ONION

Fad wrote: »

That said the more the thing develops, the more the line begins to blur. Late term abortions are just ridiculous. The foetus should not have been allowed to develop that far if it's going to be killed.

The above would be my main problem with the matter. Late term abortions are disgusting and irresponsible (obligatory IMO)

Fad

hitlersson666 wrote: »

If someone is stupid enough to have unprotected sex and they get pregnant that it's there responsibility

This, I have a problem with.

If someone gets pregnant through some sort of accident (Condom rips/pill fails/whatever) I dont see how or why that is equivilant to being irresponsible.

Basically I have a problem with the lack of availability....

Boston

hitlersson666 wrote: »

If someone is stupid enough to have unprotected sex and they get pregnant that it's there responsibility

At your young age I take it you haven't done anything really stupid yet. Give it time, eventually you will. I wonder if you'll think it right to pay for one simple mistake for the rest of your life then.

hitlersson666

That said the behavior of some people is a joke and there reason for abortion is mad eg.''I don't want to get fat'' It may be a ''thing'' but it can fell pain like we do and to take away somethings life willingly is murder!

I may be young but trust me I know always to use a condom

(can someone add a poll as well please)

SligoBrewer

hitlersson666 wrote: »

I may be young but trust me I know always to use a condom

Do you know how to use it correctly though?

brummytom

hitlersson666 wrote: »

Mine are that its wrong unless it's for the health of the mother

I actually agree with you there. I was discussing this today actually with quite a militant atheist (brought up Catholic).

It seems inhumane, to me, to terminate a life. People argue that foetuses aren't lifes; I don't care. I just don't think it's right. To be quite honest, it disgusts me.

Obviously there are a very rare times when abortion is justified (something like an ectopic pregnancy, where there is a risk of death to the mother.. then, obviously a choice has to be made to save the mother); but apart from that, no, I'm wholly opposed to it

Pygmalion

brummytom wrote: »

I was discussing this today actually with quite a militant atheist

The main thing that annoys me about the abortion argument is when you get the militant atheists who cannot for the life of them realise that abortion isn't a religious thing.
Someone says they're against abortion and all of a sudden they're assumed to be some bible-freak, because of course there's no way an atheist could see a problem with it.

hitlersson666

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Do you know how to use it correctly though?

Actually yes i did a few sessions with the yhs in cork and in school

brummytom

Pygmalion wrote: »

The main thing that annoys me about the abortion argument is when you get the militant atheists who cannot for the life of them realise that abortion isn't a religious thing.
Someone says they're against abortion and all of a sudden they're assumed to be some bible-freak, because of course there's no way an atheist could see a problem with it.

Well I think to be honest, that, to her (not by any means to other atheists) that condoning abortion is more of a rebellious act against the church's teachings than any real desire for a woman's 'choice'.

Davidius

D4RK ONION wrote: »

Pro-choice also. It's your own body, and I don't see why people who believe you shouldn't do it should have a choice in the matter. If they don't want to avail of such services or are horrified by them, then that's their deal.

I got into a huge fight with a classmate in college once on this subject, who was quite religious and refused to see or even accept my reasoning. I haven't really talked about it since.

Well in fairness I think that reasoning is a bit flawed. It's all well and good to leave people to their own devices if nobody's getting hurt and most would generally agree with that. However it's easy to see why people would have issue with abortion, because they believe that it involves murdering another human being against their will. If you considered it to be murder then it seems natural that you would want to put a stop to it.

Fad

hitlersson666 wrote: »

That said the behavior of some people is a joke and there reason for abortion is mad eg.''I don't want to get fat'' It may be a ''thing'' but it can fell pain like we do and to take away somethings life willingly is murder!

I have never heard of anybody use reasoning in anyway like that.

If a baby isnt wanted, it might not be loved by the parent. Which IMHO could be as bad as causing it pain during termination (Which is still iffy tbh, I dont really care about it being able to feel pain tbh). No being loved or not feeling wanted can have horrific consequences to people's feeling of self worth)

(Yes I know there's other routes besides the parents keeping the baby......)

SligoBrewer

First of all can we ban the use of the word "murder" in this thread.

---

Successive governments have fudged the issue, and I'm sure that not a single abortion decision is taken lightly.

It may seem like the easy way out, but it's not easy in the slightest. People do consider these things, consider them very well and calling it an easy way out is appalling.

To take the decision to go to England and put yourself through a procedure with virtually no aftercare will never be taken lightly.

And here's where the fudging takes place, 'cause we're allowed to travel to have an abortion but not have one here, and this law is both hypocritical and is putting the health of many women in grave danger.

If only to avoid the stress of the traveling (Which is bad enough when you don't have other worries) and the proper aftercare of our women after they have an abortion, I'd be all for legalisation as those who want an abortion will travel and get one.

hitlersson666

Athough I may add the really hard core pro life people annoy me but the way that they leave dead pictures of babies all over the place

And to give people a idea this is how abortion's are done!

RU-486

RU-486 is a drug that produces an abortion. It is taken after the mother misses her period. It can be used up to the second month of pregnancy. It works by blocking progesterone, a crucial hormone during pregnancy. Without progesterone, the uterine lining does not provide food, fluid and oxygen to the tiny developing baby. The baby cannot survive. A second drug is then given that stimulates the uterus to contract and the baby is expelled.

Women who abort with the drug RU-486 experience nausea, severe cramping, vomiting and bleeding. But the resulting emotional distress may have even more impact. Rather than being “over with” in a few minutes (as in a surgical abortion) this abortion could last for over a week. Then, when the woman finally does abort, she will expel a tiny dead human being - her baby.


Suction-Aspiration

In this method, the cervical muscle ring must be paralyzed and stretched open. The abortionist then inserts a hollow plastic tube with a knife-like edge into the uterus. The suction tears the baby’s body into pieces. The placenta is cut from the uterine wall and everything is sucked into a bottle.


Dilation and Curettage (D and C)

This is similar to a suction procedure except a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife is inserted into the uterus. The baby and placenta are cut into pieces and scraped out into a basin. Bleeding is usually very heavy with this method.


Dilation and Evacuation (D and E)

This type of abortion is done after the third month of pregnancy. The cervix must be dilated before the abortion. Usually Laminaria sticks are inserted into the cervix. These are made of sterilized seaweed that is compressed into thin sticks. When inserted, they absorb moisture and expand, thus enlarging the cervix. A pliers-like instrument is inserted through the cervix into the uterus. The abortionist then seizes a leg, arm or other part of the baby and, with a twisting motion, tears it from the body. This continues until only the head remains. Finally the skull is crushed and pulled out. The nurse must then reassemble the body parts to be sure that all of them were removed.



Prostaglandin Abortion

Prostaglandin is a hormone that induces labor. The baby usually dies from the trauma of the delivery. However, if the baby is old enough, it will be born alive. This is called a “complication.” To prevent this, some abortionists use ultrasound to guide them as they inject a “feticide” (a drug that kills the fetus) into the unborn baby’s heart. They then administer prostaglandin and a dead baby is delivered. This type of abortion is used in mid and late term pregnancies.


Dilation and Extraction (D and X)

This abortion is also used on mid and late term babies, from 4 to 9 months gestation. Ultrasound is used to identify how the unborn baby is facing in the womb. The abortionist inserts forceps through the cervical canal into the uterus and grasps one of the baby’s legs, positioning the baby feet first, face down (breech position). The child’s body is then pulled out of the birth canal except for the head which is too large to pass through the cervix. The baby is alive, and probably kicking and flailing his legs and arms. The abortionist hooks his fingers over the baby’s shoulders, holding the woman’s cervix away from the baby’s neck. He then jams blunt tipped surgical scissors into the base of the skull and spreads the tips apart to enlarge the wound. A suction catheter is inserted into the baby’s skull and the brain is sucked out. The skull collapses and the baby’s head passes easily through the cervix.

Abortion is called a “choice”. What is really chosen is the killing of a human being. The methods differ but the results are the same - a dead baby. Even abortion supporters admit this. Dr. Malcom Watts, writing a pro-abortion piece for the California Medical Association said: “...it has been necessary to separate the idea of abortion from the idea of killing, which continues to be socially abhorrent. The result has been a curious avoidance of the scientific fact, which everyone really knows, that human life begins at conception and is continuous until death.” The real question is not about “choice.” It is whether we have the right to kill over 4,000 human beings a day, for any reason.

SligoBrewer

hitlersson666 wrote: »

And to give people a idea this is how abortion's are done!

Where did you find that?

The language is as provocative as a Wonderbra ad.

hitlersson666

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Where did you find that?

The language is as provocative as a Wonderbra ad.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/literature/literature_9312ha.asp lol

Insect Overlord

In light of post #19, I'm going to edit the thread title slightly.
Some of those details are extremely graphic. Upsettingly so, it might be said.

hitlersson666

Insect Overlord wrote: »

In light of post #19, I'm going to edit the thread title slightly.
Some of those details are extremely graphic. Upsettingly so, it might be said.

Cool I was going to put on a warning that it was upsetting but that is the sad truth of it all

SligoBrewer

hitlersson666 wrote: »

that is the sad thruth of it all

Can any of the medheads on here get some proper facts for me please? Abortionfacts.com is hardly a legible source.

hitlersson666

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Can any of the medheads on here get some proper facts for me please? Abortionfacts.com is hardly a legible source.

Ok how about from a abortion clinic http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/Womens_services/Abortion/Abortion_FAQ.aspx#Types%20of%20abortion%20procedure2

Cerocco

This thread by its topic is highly emotive for everyone. Everyone believes that their opinion is right, and rightly so. I'll just add that it must be an extremely hard decision to make, and that decision is the right of the mother & father if he choses to be involved. No one else!!!!!! Opinions good or bad should not be forced on others

Davidius

SligoBrewer wrote: »

First of all can we ban the use of the word "murder" in this thread.

Why? It's a perfectly valid word to use when expressing a pro-life stance. Of course the use of "Pro-choice" and "Pro-life" are probably worse in themselves as they each imply the opposition is opposed to something that is fundamentally "good".

And here's where the fudging takes place, 'cause we're allowed to travel to have an abortion but not have one here, and this law is both hypocritical and is putting the health of many women in grave danger.

If only to avoid the stress of the traveling (Which is bad enough when you don't have other worries) and the proper aftercare of our women after they have an abortion, I'd be all for legalisation as those who want an abortion will travel and get one.

I don't really see how the law is hypocritical. It bans abortions within it's jurisdiction, the only place it can do so. In doing so they show that the state does not support the act. Just because our neighbours have a different opinion doesn't mean we should change it accordingly. These women are given the choice to leave the country as they please and it seems right that what they do over there is simply out of our control. The government probably can't be seen to take priority of a woman's health if it directly affects her child's either so they just leave it be.

dreamers75

mothers choice.


her decision alone not irelands as to whether she can raise the child if she feels she cant its up to her onlt god people see it as murder. normal people see it as a choice.

mardybumbum

hitlersson666 wrote: »

And to give people a idea this is how abortion's are done!

That **** is sick.

Insect Overlord

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Can any of the medheads on here get some proper facts for me please? Abortionfacts.com is hardly a legible source.

I could read it fairly easily

(methinks you mean credible, rather than legible)

Exasperated

Heres an idea.Next time you provide ''unbiased'' info in relation to abortion maybe try an actual unbiased source, like one not sponsored by a pro-life online shop namely ''heritage house'' whose range of quality products seem focused round pro life ideaologies.Just a thaught

brummytom

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Can any of the medheads on here get some proper facts for me please? Abortionfacts.com is hardly a legible source.

I'd say the NHS would be the most reputable source:

Early medical abortion (up to 9 weeks of pregnancy)

An early medical abortion involves taking two different medicines, 48 hours apart. The effect of the medication will be similar to an early natural miscarriage.

After your initial visit to see the doctor, you will have two more appointments on different days. On your first visit you will be given a tablet called mifepristone, which blocks the hormone that makes the lining of the womb suitable for the fertilised egg. After taking the first tablet, you will be able to go home, and can continue with your normal, everyday activities.

Two days later, on your second visit to the hospital, or clinic, you will be given the second medicine, prostaglandin. Within 4-6 hours of taking prostaglandin, the lining of the womb breaks down and is lost, along with the embryo, through bleeding from the vagina. This part of the process can be painful, but a painkiller can be taken to help ease.

The medicines that are used during an early medical abortion may make you feel sick, and you may vomit, or have diarrhoea.

Vacuum aspiration or suction termination (from seven to 15 weeks of pregnancy):
Vacuum aspiration, or suction termination is a procedure that involves using gentle suction to remove the foetus from the womb. The procedure usually takes between five and 10 minutes, and can be carried out under a local or general anaesthetic.

The entrance to the womb (cervix) is dilated (opened) to allow access to the contents. To soften the cervix, and make it easier to open, a tablet may be placed in the vagina, a few hours before the abortion. A small, plastic suction tube, connected to a pump, is then inserted into the womb and used to remove the foetus and surrounding tissue.

After a vacuum aspiration abortion, you will usually be able to go home the same day. However, following the procedure, you may experience a little bleeding, for up to 14 days.

Late medical abortion (from 13 weeks of pregnancy)

As well as being used for early abortion, mifepristone and prostaglandin can also be used for abortion later in pregnancy. However, the abortion will take longer, and more than one dose of prostaglandin may be needed. This type of abortion is similar to having a late natural miscarriage. Following the procedure, you may be able to return home the same day, but sometimes an overnight stay in hospital is required.

Surgical dilation and evacuation (D&E) (from 15 weeks of pregnancy):
Surgical dilation and evacuation (D&E) is a procedure that is carried out under general anaesthetic. The neck of the womb (cervix) is gently stretched and dilated (opened), and forceps and a suction tube are used to remove the foetus. The procedure usually takes between 10-20 minutes to perform and, if you are healthy, and there are no complications, you may be able to return home the same day. You may have some bleeding after the abortion for up to 14 days.

Late abortion (20-24 weeks)

There are two options for a late abortion carried out between 20-24 weeks.

Surgical two-stage abortion:
The first is known as a surgical two-stage abortion because there are two stages to it, each requiring a general anaesthetic. Stage one involves stopping the heart beat of the foetus and softening the neck of the womb (cervix). Stage two is carried out the following day and involves removing the foetus and surrounding tissue using the D&E method explained above. Surgical two-stage abortions usually require an overnight stay in hospital.

Medically induced abortion:
The second option, known as a medically induced abortion, is similar to a late natural miscarriage. The medicine prostaglandin is injected into the womb, causing it to contract strongly, as in labour. This can last for between six and 12 hours. During the process, you will remain awake and may be given medicines to control the pain. Afterwards, the D&E process, explained above, may be used to ensure that the womb is completely empty. You will usually need to stay overnight in hospital.

Source: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/How-is-it-performed.aspx

The same methods, obviously not as played up as much as the descriptions in H.S's post; but still every bit as sickening

Insect Overlord

Exasperated wrote: »

Heres an idea.Next time you provide ''unbiased'' info in relation to abortion maybe try an actual unbiased source, like one not sponsored by a pro-life online shop namely ''heritage house'' whose range of quality products seem focused round pro life ideaologies.Just a thaught

To be fair, he never used the word "unbiased" in his post.

soccymonster

Maybe it's just the wording but those methods of abortion are just cruel and no human being (no matter how old) deserves that.

Ok, i don't know all the science and religous bits behind it but i've always had an anti-abortion opinion. I just think that every human has a right to live.

Edit: whats this about the site now?...

D4RK ONION

But he was tyring to fight his pro-life corner and as such his link could be seen as trying to be unbiased in an attempt to bolster his argument?

hitlersson666

Exasperated wrote: »

Heres an idea.Next time you provide ''unbiased'' info in relation to abortion maybe try an actual unbiased source, like one not sponsored by a pro-life online shop namely ''heritage house'' whose range of quality products seem focused round pro life ideaologies.Just a thaught

Of course! which is why I then posted it from a pro-Choice website :rolleyes:

brummytom

D4RK ONION wrote: »

But he was tyring to fight his pro-life corner and as such his link could be seen as trying to be unbiased in an attempt to bolster his argument?

But the information was accurate. Just because the source was biased doesn't mean it was wrong

SligoBrewer

brummytom wrote: »

But the information was accurate. Just because the source was biased doesn't mean it was wrong

Being biased affects accuracy, greatly.

Insect Overlord

Sligo Brewer's previous post deleted for being off-topic.

I don't see any reason to lock this thread any time soon, so long as posters make an effort to argue their points maturely. Off-topic and abusive posts will be dealt with as normal.

seanybiker

dreamers75 wrote: »

mothers choice.


her decision alone not irelands as to whether she can raise the child if she feels she cant its up to her onlt god people see it as murder. normal people see it as a choice.

strange. Im not a god person at all and I see it as murder.

Pygmalion

dreamers75 wrote: »

mothers choice.


her decision alone not irelands as to whether she can raise the child if she feels she cant its up to her onlt god people see it as murder. normal people see it as a choice.

Rather than type it out again I'll just quote what I said earlier.

Pygmalion wrote: »

The main thing that annoys me about the abortion argument is when you get the militant atheists who cannot for the life of them realise that abortion isn't a religious thing.
Someone says they're against abortion and all of a sudden they're assumed to be some bible-freak, because of course there's no way an atheist could see a problem with it.

You're a perfect example of this, thanks.

brummytom

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Being biased affects accuracy, greatly.

It affects credibility/realiability; not accuracy.

I'm English. I could tell you now that the English football team are superior to the Irish Football Team. I have a clear bias; but I'm also in possession of the facts that they have won a World Cup while Ireland haven't, and could compare the matches of the two teams and find English to be better.

While I have a bias, it doesn't need to affect my accuracy at all. Saying 'England are better' means nothing, it's purely bias; but if I provide proof to support my argument then I can be accurate and still hold bias.

psycho-hope

I'm very much pro choice, its up to the women and her partner if he is still on the scene.

Arcade Panda

Pro-choice all the way. Everyone should have the right to choose.

Personally I don't know what I'd do if I found out tomorrow I was pregnent.....I'd like to think that I'd keep it. I don't think I'd be able to get rid of it. That's just me though and I wouldn't have any problem with anyone in the same situation having an abortion. What's right for you is right for you.

illiop

I'm Pro-life. While I see the reasons for abortion and they are perfectly legitimate but I still can't get over the fact that it's taking someones life.

I don't really understand how people can see it as otherwise. We all agree that life stops when the heart stops beating (even brain-dead people are considered to be alive if you can keep their heart beating-though i'm not sure i agree with that) so surely by that logic life begins when the heart starts beating, which is, I think, about 5 weeks into pregnancy. After that the only reason I could see for abortion is if the pregnancy will almost certainly kill the mother.

There are people out there that would do anything for a child, I think some sort of system should be set up by which mother can more easily give there babies up for adoption, not within Ireland because it's just to small of a country. I know adoption is said to be the hardest thing anyone can do but really if the choice is kill it or (hopefully) give it the life that you feel you you can't I'm pretty sure a lot of women would go the hard road.

Konata

hitlersson666 wrote: »

I may be young but trust me I know always to use a condom

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Do you know how to use it correctly though?

hitlersson666 wrote: »

Actually yes i did a few sessions with the yhs in cork and in school

While learning how to properly use a condom is essential, putting it into practice is another story. Try doing it in the dark, after several/many drinks when you're clearly not thinking straight. Suddenly it be becomes a bit harder to determine (or often even care) whether or not it's on correctly.Something as simple as using Vaseline as a lubricant (which many people - incorrectly - do) can cause a condom to break. Neither of you may notice.

Yes, you should be responsible enough not to have sex when you're plastered drunk but we're young, it has/will happen to many of us. You don't even need to be drunk for things to go wrong, often unawares. Condoms are not 100% effective. Though rare, a girl can still get pregnant even without having full intercourse. It's cases like these (aswell as rape and illness) where I feel women should have a choice about whether or not to terminate a pregnancy.

Imo, not being financially/physically/mentally capable of raising a child can do alot of harm. Some say abortions should only be carried out if the mother's health is at risk. But what about after the child is born? What about her mental health? Dealing with so much you're not ready to massively increases the probability of developing post-natal depression. It may get so bad that the mother can no longer care for the child. Both suffer negative consequences. It's proven that the childhood environment is essential to their mental and physical well-being as adults.

While I'm pro-choice, I don't believe that abortion should be taken lightly. If I myself were to get pregnant now, I'm almost certain I'd have an abortion but that's not to say that I would find it an easy decision to make. I know that it would be something that would stay with me for the rest of my life, something I'd always wonder about. But I know that I couldn't raise a child now. I couldn't give them everything that I grew up with, I'm neither mentally nor physically capable of doing so.

The solution is, of course, not to get pregnant. Unfortunately, despite a person's best intentions, that is alot more easily said than done.

Boston

hitlersson666 wrote: »

That said the behavior of some people is a joke and there reason for abortion is mad eg.''I don't want to get fat'' It may be a ''thing'' but it can fell pain like we do and to take away somethings life willingly is murder!

I may be young but trust me I know always to use a condom

(can someone add a poll as well please)

Rubbish. And even if it was true that some people abuse the system, thats hardly a good enough reason for a blanket ban.

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Do you know how to use it correctly though?

Fair point. You'd be amazed how many men can't do this when drunk and how many girls can't do it at all.

norwegianwood

I totally see the pro choice point of view, but I just can't agree with it. It isn't the child's fault how they were concieved, and their life shouldn't be taken from them before they even get to live it. Not when there are so many couples out there who can't have kids, and would be glad of the chance to raise a child as their own.
But that's just my fairly useless opinion.

Ginja Ninja

First of all: There was a contraversial argument and no one invited me,WTF?

I'll say now,I've not read all this thread[my internet takes 10 minutes to load a page]

I'm pro-choice,because the simple fact of the matter is no one has any opinion on what should happen except the mother who is carrying the child and anyone else SHE[no one else] deems to have one.

There are enough unwanted children in the world and Life is easy enough to ruin completely even without having a child you're not ready/able to care for.

I'm pro stem cell research as well,but that's a whole other topic.I know it sounds heartless,but I value a life that has experienced the world over one that is still forming.

Peoples attitude towards this are so wrong IMO[not calling anyone out] but when people judge someone on opting for an abortion,simply put:you have no right to an opinion on this and even less of a right to force that opinion on someone who is experiencing the problem first hand.

Aoibheann

I used to be very (I would use overly tbh) opinionated on this subject, but like the rest of my opinions, it's one that has mellowed somewhat. I still have the same personal stance on it, but I can understand the other side of the argument.

Personally, I'm anti-abortion, purely because I don't think it's something I could ever go through with. For me, it's actually a scientific thing as opposed to a religious thing (I'm an atheist). It's that we genuinely don't know enough to pinpoint precisely where life actually begins. Some say it's from fertilisation, some say it's when the heart starts beating.. But I don't think we know enough about neural development to decide when any form of senses are in any way developed.

But honestly, that's just me. I can completely see where the other side are coming from. Sometimes it's just not feasible for somebody to go through with a pregnancy. The X case for example. I'll maybe make a post on that at a later date if anyone's got an interest and doesn't know the details?

As I've said, I'm anti-abortion from a personal point of view, but I would say I'm pro-choice. That's my personal choice, but I understand that it's necessary, horrible things do happen, accidents can also happen, and I agree with the two below posts absolutely.

Oh, and to completely fuck with your heads, I'm also pro embryonic stem cell research, with only a couple of provisions.

phlegms wrote: »

I'm fervently on the pro-choice side of things.
Regardless of whether I think the semantics of it are right or wrong, I think it is absolutely vital that it still be an option available for people in particularly fúcked up circumstances.

Boston wrote: »

At your young age I take it you haven't done anything really stupid yet. Give it time, eventually you will. I wonder if you'll think it right to pay for one simple mistake for the rest of your life then.

thebman

Pro-choice because the argument generally is wrong.

People who want abortions will have abortions. The law just decides if they have them here or not or have them with approved doctors or some dodgy doctor performing illegal abortions which people tend to assume isn't happening in Ireland but I doubt thats the case.

Basically a band called anti-flag put it best when they said, "the rich will fly to far off lands, the poor will stay and pray, their backalley abortion is clean and safe. You can't make it go away so why endanger womens lives, because the issue here for you isn't life, it's control!"

We know its going to happen, people who are against it are just IMO, forcing their views on other people which they know won't wash with those people and those people will go get abortions anyway they can if they want to have them. They do this knowing that it will negatively effect all involved but its the principal that counts right? Not how it pans out in real life for real people.

Last time I posted this my point that it is going to happen anyway just got ignored and they start going on about the rights of the child as usual ignoring that the abortion is going to happen anyway. As long as that is how the discussion is going to go, debate isn't possible IMO. As long as it is about protecting people from their own decisions, we are having the wrong discussion especially when most people involved have never been in the situation.