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US Congress panel accuses Turkey of Armenian 'genocide'

  • 05-03-2010 02:27AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8550765.stm
    US vote attacks Turkey 'genocide'


    A US congressional panel has described the killing of Armenians by Turkish forces during World War I as genocide, despite White House objections.
    The resolution was narrowly approved by the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
    Turkey, a key US ally, responded by recalling its ambassador in Washington for consultations. It has fiercely opposed the non-binding resolution.
    The White House had warned that the vote would harm reconciliation talks between Turkey and Armenia.
    The resolution calls on President Barack Obama to ensure that US foreign policy reflects an understanding of the "genocide" and to label the World War I killings as such in his annual statement on the issue.
    It was approved by 23 votes to 22 by the committee.

    ANALYSIS
    Kevin Connolly, BBC News, Washington

    Ankara has already withdrawn its ambassador from Washington for consultations - in reaction to what will be seen as a significant international insult.
    Washington will now be working hard to limit any further diplomatic fallout.
    As one of the United States' most important allies in the Muslim world, Turkey's influence is important on both Iran and Afghanistan. And the cheapest and safest way of extracting American soldiers from Iraq next year would be from neighbouring Turkey - if the diplomatic atmosphere permits.


    Within minutes the Turkish government issued a statement condemning "this resolution which accuses the Turkish nation of a crime it has not committed".
    The statement also said the Turkish ambassador was being recalled for consultations.
    A Turkish parliamentary delegation had gone to Washington to try to persuade committee members to reject the resolution.
    Turkey accepts that atrocities were committed but argues they were part of the war and that there was no systematic attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian people.
    The Armenian government welcomed the vote, calling it "an important step towards the prevention of crimes against humanity".
    In 2007, a similar resolution passed the committee stage, but was shelved before a House vote after pressure from the George W Bush administration.

    'Too important'
    During his election campaign Mr Obama promised to brand the mass killings genocide.

    Before the vote, committee chairman Howard Berman urged fellow members of the committee to endorse the resolution.
    "I believe that Turkey values its relationship with the United States at least as much as we value our relations with Turkey," he said.
    The Turks, he added, "fundamentally agree that the US-Turkish alliance is simply too important to get side-tracked by a non-binding resolution passed by the House of Representatives".
    In October last year, Turkey and Armenia signed a historic accord normalising relations between them after a century of hostility.
    Armenia wants Turkey to recognise the killings as an act of genocide, but successive Turkish governments have refused to do so.
    Hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in 1915, when they were deported en masse from eastern Anatolia by the Ottoman Empire. They were killed by troops or died from starvation and disease. Armenians have campaigned for the killings to be recognised internationally as genocide - and more than 20 countries have done so.

    Long overdue but hopefully it sends the right message to the Turks and the EU in regards to any accession.


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Couldn't something a tad more recent be considered when it comes to the question of accession?

    I wonder what this US panel would make of a certain military operation in South-East Asia over half a century later...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭m@cc@


    Dudess wrote: »
    Couldn't something a tad more recent be considered when it comes to the question of accession?


    Well, there are more recent things considered and at the moment, any chance of them joining looks remote. But there should still be pressure put on them to recognise the massacres that took place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Glad to see Congress spending its time wisely these days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    No mirrors in the US Congress obviously.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,485 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Overheal wrote: »
    Glad to see Congress spending its time wisely these days.

    well at least they are accomplishing more than their irish counterparts, lets say that

    next on the list will be to determine if the mongol and qing dynasty conquests count as genocide too


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Paddycrumlinman


    What a load of me hole.. no more to say. The kettle calling the pot black.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,758 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    What is the point ?

    It was recognised by Germany as genocide back in the 1920's ( about the same time the RAF were gassing Iraqi's ) for all the good that did in preventing subsequent crimes against humanity

    genocides have been allowed to happen in Cambodia and central Africa since

    Yugoslavia wasn't a patch on any of the above but a lot closer to home and still allowed to happen


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭m@cc@


    Yugoslavia wasn't a patch on any of the above but a lot closer to home and still allowed to happen

    At least the Serbians were taken to account (even if it was them who had to initate at).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    m@cc@ wrote: »
    Long overdue but hopefully it sends the right message to the Turks and the EU in regards to any accession.

    Turkey is not a european country, ergo it should never be accepted into the EU. Seventy million turks descending on europe, no thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭m@cc@


    Turkey is not a european country, ergo it should never be accepted into the EU. Seventy million turks descending on europe, no thanks.

    I had a long discussion about this before, I don't want to go down that road again. All I would say is it's Eurasian and in that sense entitled to apply for membership.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    m@cc@ wrote: »
    I had a long discussion about this before, I don't want to go down that road again. All I would say is it's Eurasian and in that sense entitled to apply for membership.

    It is in its hole. Just 3% of the country is located in europe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭epgc3fyqirnbsx


    m@cc@ wrote: »
    I had a long discussion about this before, I don't want to go down that road again. All I would say is it's Eurasian and in that sense entitled to apply for membership.

    OOhhh, I really shouldn't try to descend this thread into something that its not but I am genuinely interested, and you can PM me if you think more appropriate or if you have info that you think that I should know, and I would greatly appreciate it

    And sorry for getting off topic if I am

    But I can't help thinking what a fantastic thing Turkeys army is as the guardian of a secular state. They have had a few military coups, AFAIK, to prevent religion being a part of their democracy. And it was feared similar might happen when the presidents wife wore a headscarf a couple of years ago.

    I don't know what the general feeling on the ground is in Turkey, but as apparantely one of the friendliest coutrys in the world (tourismwise), I would imagine that they wouldnt want a restrictive islamic rule and it must be quite a comfort to know that that army will not only defend them physically, but let them practice their religion in privacy and let others do likewise.

    I really dont know Turkey enough to true comment but that sounds like a fantastic system to me, the greatest religious freedom concurrent with the greatest secualr safeguards imaginable. But it wont work woth the EU. But it would be very messy with the EU otherwise.

    Again, sorry if this is gone way off Mods, feel free to remove it, but I've been wondering about this for a little while and thid just kind of set it off...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭m@cc@


    OOhhh, I really shouldn't try to descend this thread into something that its not but I am genuinely interested, and you can PM me if you think more appropriate or if you have info that you think that I should know, and I would greatly appreciate it.

    No, it was just I was arguing with someone who saying that Bosnia, Turkey and Albania had no place in Europe despite the obvious geographical location. Turkey is one that's up for discussion I'll admit.

    I think they've a lot to work out before that happens. For one, the French are against it because they don't want a whole load of Muslims landing over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭epgc3fyqirnbsx


    m@cc@ wrote: »
    No, it was just I was arguing with someone who saying that Bosnia, Turkey and Albania had no place in Europe despite the obvious geographical location. Turkey is one that's up for discussion I'll admit.

    I think they've a lot to work out before that happens. For one, the French are against it because they don't want a whole load of Muslims landing over.

    Yeah, I het that, thats why I was apologising, I couln't stop myself going on a tangent :o

    But their fears are understandable, from an idividual point of view, but the whole ethos of the EU, from Directives handed down to decisions made in the intended 'spirit' of what the EU and the various treaties represented, really dictates that they have no reason not to let these states in.

    I know, and I'm sure most if us know, that 99% of the people in those countries, regardless of their religion, are stand up nice people who love their kids and want better for their kids the same as anyone else in the world.

    But as for the fear about letting in muslim predominated states, there are a hell of a lot of legitimate concerns against what the EU is meant to be about.

    But what I was trying to say about Turkey was that, on paper, it is a really fantastic system, especially considering potential unstabilities in that part of the world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    But I can't help thinking what a fantastic thing Turkeys army is as the guardian of a secular state. They have had a few military coups, AFAIK, to prevent religion being a part of their democracy. And it was feared similar might happen when the presidents wife wore a headscarf a couple of years ago.



    Heres some nuggets from the bould Recep(Prime Minister)

    “ One cannot be a secularist and a Muslim at the same time”.
    Now guess which one he is.

    "Democracy is like a streetcar. “You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off “.

    "The domes our helmets, the mosques our barracks, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers"

    Oh and lest we foget, "secular" Turkey has over a 100 "secular" honour killings each year. Only one particular religous group takes part in this ritual. Guess who!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭m@cc@


    But what I was trying to say about Turkey was that, on paper, it is a really fantastic system, especially considering potential unstabilities in that part of the world.

    Well thats one of the reasons why'd you want a country in that region the size of Turkey on board in order to help negotiate terms with the surrounding countries. You're talking at least another 10 years before it happens I'd say, though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭epgc3fyqirnbsx


    m@cc@ wrote: »
    Well thats one of the reasons why'd you want a country in that region the size of Turkey on board in order to help negotiate terms with the surrounding countries. You're talking at least another 10 years before it happens I'd say, though.

    Thats fair enough. I'm not arguing with you, wouldn't argue on a topic that I dont know enough about, and looking at the facts, and the rest of Europe, they aren't ready yet.

    I just find the country interesting is all, and their army consistingly protecting them from their govt interesting.

    But thats not really for here either, no need for me to bring it up really but it's late! :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Sisko


    Very interesting to see some movement on the US side regarding this issue. Basically turkey have been denying this for a long time and its a very touchy subject.

    But the fact is, if it wasn't for the cold war and turkey being a very strategic ally this would have been down as on official genocide a long long time ago.

    Its not about the US pointing fingers when it does the same, its about justice and recognition for the Armenians.

    As for the Turks and EU. As Muslim countries go its no where near as dodgy as many others. But its still a bit of an iffy country tbh, they even ban youtube. Its still far from what you'd imagine as a fully free European country.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭m@cc@


    Sisko wrote: »
    Its not about the US pointing fingers when it does the same, its about justice and recognition for the Armenians.

    Exactly, I kinda have a vested interest in this as one of my friends is Armenian. Just the mention of the work 'Turk' is enough to make him go deathly silent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Heres some nuggets from the bould Recep(Prime Minister)

    “ One cannot be a secularist and a Muslim at the same time”.
    Now guess which one he is.

    "Democracy is like a streetcar. “You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off “.

    "The domes our helmets, the mosques our barracks, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers"

    Oh and lest we foget, "secular" Turkey has over a 100 "secular" honour killings each year. Only one particular religous group takes part in this ritual. Guess who!

    Have you decided to give 'The Nigerians' the day off?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,595 ✭✭✭bonerm


    Fair play to countries like the US and Germany for recognising the Armenian genocide.

    Though in fairness they would know one when they see it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ..maybe in a few hundred years they'll pass something condemning the treatment of the Palestinians....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭m@cc@


    bonerm wrote: »
    Fair play to countries like the US and Germany for recognising the Armenian genocide.

    Though in fairness they would know one when they see it.

    Yeah, but there's 'good genocide' and 'bad genocide'. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,291 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    Have you decided to give 'The Nigerians' the day off?

    He probably changed his tune when he got the email offering him 30 million dollars. When he discovers it's a scam, he'll be back on track.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Executive Steve


    It's not like genocidal histories were really a bar against Germany being in the EU...

    The whole thing is just ****-stirring by the American Christian right to destabilise Obama and the whole Iraq situation anyway. (Armenia is a Christian country)

    Bush was a huge supporter of Turkey joining the EU, partly a a longterm strategic thing to destabilise Europe and partially because Turkey is a NATO member and has been a staging point for US missile bases for years.

    Notice how the rhetoric about Saddam's atrocities against the Kurds were highlighted while the brutal Turkish attempts to squash any talk of an independent Kurdistan were completely ignored... Not to mention the fact that the Turkish airforce has been given a free hand at bombing Kurdish settlements in Northern Iraq ever since day one of the (current) Gulf War.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,758 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Dudess wrote: »
    Couldn't something a tad more recent be considered when it comes to the question of accession?

    I wonder what this US panel would make of a certain military operation in South-East Asia over half a century later...
    which one ?
    The killing of the indigenous tribes in the golden triangle by everyone
    North Vietnamese civilians
    The boat people
    Carpet bombing of south east Cambodia
    The killing fields
    The attempt by Pol Pot to exterminate the Vietnamese
    Chinese invasion of Vietnam
    Blocking humanitarian aid to the Vietnamese puppet state in Cambodia on the basis they were less democratic than the previous administration which outlawed things like money , towns, hospitals ( our government was guilty here too )


    The old Roman punishment of decimation, the killing of one man in ten, when their troops were routed has a basis in psychology. people can take losses less than this in a single campaign, RAF bomber command lost most of crew as casualties during the way but rarely more than a few % per mission so the losses were acceptible, when you go over this to about 10% then people become brutalised by the shock of so many missing. Have a look at the numbers of Turkish troops who remained alive after the retreat and weather and disease took their toll.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Notice how the rhetoric about Saddam's atrocities against the Kurds were highlighted while the brutal Turkish attempts to squash any talk of an independent Kurdistan were completely ignored.

    Obviously there are Good Kurds and Bad Kurds ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    If they do join the EU, mass immigration from Turkey into Ireland will make eastern europen immigration seem like a drop in the ocean. Which is why all 166 TDs support Turkeys accession.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    .......And then they will eat us

    They will eat us I tell ye


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Fear Uladh


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Obviously there are Good Kurds and Bad Kurds ?

    And lemon kurds.....

    On a serious note, has turkey got oil now or something?


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