US Congress panel accuses Turkey of Armenian 'genocide'

m@cc@

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8550765.stm

US vote attacks Turkey 'genocide'


A US congressional panel has described the killing of Armenians by Turkish forces during World War I as genocide, despite White House objections.
The resolution was narrowly approved by the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
Turkey, a key US ally, responded by recalling its ambassador in Washington for consultations. It has fiercely opposed the non-binding resolution.
The White House had warned that the vote would harm reconciliation talks between Turkey and Armenia.
The resolution calls on President Barack Obama to ensure that US foreign policy reflects an understanding of the "genocide" and to label the World War I killings as such in his annual statement on the issue.
It was approved by 23 votes to 22 by the committee.

ANALYSIS
Kevin Connolly, BBC News, Washington

Ankara has already withdrawn its ambassador from Washington for consultations - in reaction to what will be seen as a significant international insult.
Washington will now be working hard to limit any further diplomatic fallout.
As one of the United States' most important allies in the Muslim world, Turkey's influence is important on both Iran and Afghanistan. And the cheapest and safest way of extracting American soldiers from Iraq next year would be from neighbouring Turkey - if the diplomatic atmosphere permits.


Within minutes the Turkish government issued a statement condemning "this resolution which accuses the Turkish nation of a crime it has not committed".
The statement also said the Turkish ambassador was being recalled for consultations.
A Turkish parliamentary delegation had gone to Washington to try to persuade committee members to reject the resolution.
Turkey accepts that atrocities were committed but argues they were part of the war and that there was no systematic attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian people.
The Armenian government welcomed the vote, calling it "an important step towards the prevention of crimes against humanity".
In 2007, a similar resolution passed the committee stage, but was shelved before a House vote after pressure from the George W Bush administration.

'Too important'
During his election campaign Mr Obama promised to brand the mass killings genocide.

Before the vote, committee chairman Howard Berman urged fellow members of the committee to endorse the resolution.
"I believe that Turkey values its relationship with the United States at least as much as we value our relations with Turkey," he said.
The Turks, he added, "fundamentally agree that the US-Turkish alliance is simply too important to get side-tracked by a non-binding resolution passed by the House of Representatives".
In October last year, Turkey and Armenia signed a historic accord normalising relations between them after a century of hostility.
Armenia wants Turkey to recognise the killings as an act of genocide, but successive Turkish governments have refused to do so.
Hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in 1915, when they were deported en masse from eastern Anatolia by the Ottoman Empire. They were killed by troops or died from starvation and disease. Armenians have campaigned for the killings to be recognised internationally as genocide - and more than 20 countries have done so.

Long overdue but hopefully it sends the right message to the Turks and the EU in regards to any accession.

Dudess

Couldn't something a tad more recent be considered when it comes to the question of accession?

I wonder what this US panel would make of a certain military operation in South-East Asia over half a century later...

m@cc@

Dudess wrote: »

Couldn't something a tad more recent be considered when it comes to the question of accession?

Well, there are more recent things considered and at the moment, any chance of them joining looks remote. But there should still be pressure put on them to recognise the massacres that took place.

Overheal

Glad to see Congress spending its time wisely these days.

mikom

No mirrors in the US Congress obviously.

rossie1977

Overheal wrote: »

Glad to see Congress spending its time wisely these days.

well at least they are accomplishing more than their irish counterparts, lets say that

next on the list will be to determine if the mongol and qing dynasty conquests count as genocide too

Paddycrumlinman

What a load of me hole.. no more to say. The kettle calling the pot black.

Capt'n Midnight

What is the point ?

It was recognised by Germany as genocide back in the 1920's ( about the same time the RAF were gassing Iraqi's ) for all the good that did in preventing subsequent crimes against humanity

genocides have been allowed to happen in Cambodia and central Africa since

Yugoslavia wasn't a patch on any of the above but a lot closer to home and still allowed to happen

m@cc@

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Yugoslavia wasn't a patch on any of the above but a lot closer to home and still allowed to happen

At least the Serbians were taken to account (even if it was them who had to initate at).

IrishManSaipan

m@cc@ wrote: »

Long overdue but hopefully it sends the right message to the Turks and the EU in regards to any accession.

Turkey is not a european country, ergo it should never be accepted into the EU. Seventy million turks descending on europe, no thanks.

m@cc@

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Turkey is not a european country, ergo it should never be accepted into the EU. Seventy million turks descending on europe, no thanks.

I had a long discussion about this before, I don't want to go down that road again. All I would say is it's Eurasian and in that sense entitled to apply for membership.

IrishManSaipan

m@cc@ wrote: »

I had a long discussion about this before, I don't want to go down that road again. All I would say is it's Eurasian and in that sense entitled to apply for membership.

It is in its hole. Just 3% of the country is located in europe.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

m@cc@ wrote: »

I had a long discussion about this before, I don't want to go down that road again. All I would say is it's Eurasian and in that sense entitled to apply for membership.

OOhhh, I really shouldn't try to descend this thread into something that its not but I am genuinely interested, and you can PM me if you think more appropriate or if you have info that you think that I should know, and I would greatly appreciate it

And sorry for getting off topic if I am

But I can't help thinking what a fantastic thing Turkeys army is as the guardian of a secular state. They have had a few military coups, AFAIK, to prevent religion being a part of their democracy. And it was feared similar might happen when the presidents wife wore a headscarf a couple of years ago.

I don't know what the general feeling on the ground is in Turkey, but as apparantely one of the friendliest coutrys in the world (tourismwise), I would imagine that they wouldnt want a restrictive islamic rule and it must be quite a comfort to know that that army will not only defend them physically, but let them practice their religion in privacy and let others do likewise.

I really dont know Turkey enough to true comment but that sounds like a fantastic system to me, the greatest religious freedom concurrent with the greatest secualr safeguards imaginable. But it wont work woth the EU. But it would be very messy with the EU otherwise.

Again, sorry if this is gone way off Mods, feel free to remove it, but I've been wondering about this for a little while and thid just kind of set it off...

m@cc@

Miranda Small Police wrote: »

OOhhh, I really shouldn't try to descend this thread into something that its not but I am genuinely interested, and you can PM me if you think more appropriate or if you have info that you think that I should know, and I would greatly appreciate it.

No, it was just I was arguing with someone who saying that Bosnia, Turkey and Albania had no place in Europe despite the obvious geographical location. Turkey is one that's up for discussion I'll admit.

I think they've a lot to work out before that happens. For one, the French are against it because they don't want a whole load of Muslims landing over.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

m@cc@ wrote: »

No, it was just I was arguing with someone who saying that Bosnia, Turkey and Albania had no place in Europe despite the obvious geographical location. Turkey is one that's up for discussion I'll admit.

I think they've a lot to work out before that happens. For one, the French are against it because they don't want a whole load of Muslims landing over.

Yeah, I het that, thats why I was apologising, I couln't stop myself going on a tangent

But their fears are understandable, from an idividual point of view, but the whole ethos of the EU, from Directives handed down to decisions made in the intended 'spirit' of what the EU and the various treaties represented, really dictates that they have no reason not to let these states in.

I know, and I'm sure most if us know, that 99% of the people in those countries, regardless of their religion, are stand up nice people who love their kids and want better for their kids the same as anyone else in the world.

But as for the fear about letting in muslim predominated states, there are a hell of a lot of legitimate concerns against what the EU is meant to be about.

But what I was trying to say about Turkey was that, on paper, it is a really fantastic system, especially considering potential unstabilities in that part of the world.

IrishManSaipan

Miranda Small Police wrote: »

But I can't help thinking what a fantastic thing Turkeys army is as the guardian of a secular state. They have had a few military coups, AFAIK, to prevent religion being a part of their democracy. And it was feared similar might happen when the presidents wife wore a headscarf a couple of years ago.

Heres some nuggets from the bould Recep(Prime Minister)

“ One cannot be a secularist and a Muslim at the same time”.
Now guess which one he is.

"Democracy is like a streetcar. “You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off “.

"The domes our helmets, the mosques our barracks, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers"

Oh and lest we foget, "secular" Turkey has over a 100 "secular" honour killings each year. Only one particular religous group takes part in this ritual. Guess who!

m@cc@

Miranda Small Police wrote: »

But what I was trying to say about Turkey was that, on paper, it is a really fantastic system, especially considering potential unstabilities in that part of the world.

Well thats one of the reasons why'd you want a country in that region the size of Turkey on board in order to help negotiate terms with the surrounding countries. You're talking at least another 10 years before it happens I'd say, though.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

m@cc@ wrote: »

Well thats one of the reasons why'd you want a country in that region the size of Turkey on board in order to help negotiate terms with the surrounding countries. You're talking at least another 10 years before it happens I'd say, though.

Thats fair enough. I'm not arguing with you, wouldn't argue on a topic that I dont know enough about, and looking at the facts, and the rest of Europe, they aren't ready yet.

I just find the country interesting is all, and their army consistingly protecting them from their govt interesting.

But thats not really for here either, no need for me to bring it up really but it's late! :pac:

Sisko

Very interesting to see some movement on the US side regarding this issue. Basically turkey have been denying this for a long time and its a very touchy subject.

But the fact is, if it wasn't for the cold war and turkey being a very strategic ally this would have been down as on official genocide a long long time ago.

Its not about the US pointing fingers when it does the same, its about justice and recognition for the Armenians.

As for the Turks and EU. As Muslim countries go its no where near as dodgy as many others. But its still a bit of an iffy country tbh, they even ban youtube. Its still far from what you'd imagine as a fully free European country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI8PP0JnsW0

m@cc@

Sisko wrote: »

Its not about the US pointing fingers when it does the same, its about justice and recognition for the Armenians.

Exactly, I kinda have a vested interest in this as one of my friends is Armenian. Just the mention of the work 'Turk' is enough to make him go deathly silent.

Nodin

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Heres some nuggets from the bould Recep(Prime Minister)

“ One cannot be a secularist and a Muslim at the same time”.
Now guess which one he is.

"Democracy is like a streetcar. “You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off “.

"The domes our helmets, the mosques our barracks, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers"

Oh and lest we foget, "secular" Turkey has over a 100 "secular" honour killings each year. Only one particular religous group takes part in this ritual. Guess who!

Have you decided to give 'The Nigerians' the day off?

bonerm

Fair play to countries like the US and Germany for recognising the Armenian genocide.

Though in fairness they would know one when they see it.

Nodin

..maybe in a few hundred years they'll pass something condemning the treatment of the Palestinians....

m@cc@

bonerm wrote: »

Fair play to countries like the US and Germany for recognising the Armenian genocide.

Though in fairness they would know one when they see it.

Yeah, but there's 'good genocide' and 'bad genocide'. :rolleyes:

ejmaztec

Nodin wrote: »

Have you decided to give 'The Nigerians' the day off?

He probably changed his tune when he got the email offering him 30 million dollars. When he discovers it's a scam, he'll be back on track.

Executive Steve

It's not like genocidal histories were really a bar against Germany being in the EU...

The whole thing is just ****-stirring by the American Christian right to destabilise Obama and the whole Iraq situation anyway. (Armenia is a Christian country)

Bush was a huge supporter of Turkey joining the EU, partly a a longterm strategic thing to destabilise Europe and partially because Turkey is a NATO member and has been a staging point for US missile bases for years.

Notice how the rhetoric about Saddam's atrocities against the Kurds were highlighted while the brutal Turkish attempts to squash any talk of an independent Kurdistan were completely ignored... Not to mention the fact that the Turkish airforce has been given a free hand at bombing Kurdish settlements in Northern Iraq ever since day one of the (current) Gulf War.

Capt'n Midnight

Dudess wrote: »

Couldn't something a tad more recent be considered when it comes to the question of accession?

I wonder what this US panel would make of a certain military operation in South-East Asia over half a century later...

which one ?
The killing of the indigenous tribes in the golden triangle by everyone
North Vietnamese civilians
The boat people
Carpet bombing of south east Cambodia
The killing fields
The attempt by Pol Pot to exterminate the Vietnamese
Chinese invasion of Vietnam
Blocking humanitarian aid to the Vietnamese puppet state in Cambodia on the basis they were less democratic than the previous administration which outlawed things like money , towns, hospitals ( our government was guilty here too )


The old Roman punishment of decimation, the killing of one man in ten, when their troops were routed has a basis in psychology. people can take losses less than this in a single campaign, RAF bomber command lost most of crew as casualties during the way but rarely more than a few % per mission so the losses were acceptible, when you go over this to about 10% then people become brutalised by the shock of so many missing. Have a look at the numbers of Turkish troops who remained alive after the retreat and weather and disease took their toll.

Mike 1972

Executive Steve wrote: »

Notice how the rhetoric about Saddam's atrocities against the Kurds were highlighted while the brutal Turkish attempts to squash any talk of an independent Kurdistan were completely ignored.

Obviously there are Good Kurds and Bad Kurds ?

IrishManSaipan

If they do join the EU, mass immigration from Turkey into Ireland will make eastern europen immigration seem like a drop in the ocean. Which is why all 166 TDs support Turkeys accession.

Mike 1972

.......And then they will eat us

They will eat us I tell ye

Fear Uladh

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Obviously there are Good Kurds and Bad Kurds ?

And lemon kurds.....

On a serious note, has turkey got oil now or something?

dlofnep

The US is right. It was a genocide.

And feck Turkey. The audacity of them bitching about it. IF you don't want people calling it a genocide, them maybe you shouldn't have murdered so many people?

dlofnep

And when the feck is Ireland going to recognise it as a genocide?

El Siglo

I wouldn't be supportive of Turkey's accession into the EU simply because it would cost billions and with us, Greece etc... in financial trouble it wouldn't be good. Personally, I've found the Turkish to be a nice people, like any other nationality, there's dickheads but all in all nice people. I doubt Obama will be too supportive of Congress and he did pussy out last year of calling it a genocide. If it was a Turkish genocide committed by Armenians, there'd be no problem but money and geopolitics tend to dictate this.

El Siglo

Chillaxe wrote: »

And lemon kurds.....

On a serious note, has turkey got oil now or something?

It's got this. Which helps it go here, bomb this, and get this. So oil has something to do with it.

IrishManSaipan

Nodin wrote: »

Have you decided to give 'The Nigerians' the day off?

The usual guff from this Nodin character. It will take a while for Turkey and Serbia to accepted back into the human race, never mind the EU. Both need to atone for their genocidal actions of the past.

Heres an excellent article against Turkey joining the EU;

The EU is designed to smother nationalist feelings. For Turks, however, the alternative to healthy nationalism would be Islamism, which is much more dangerous.

Finally, Turkish accession would be very bad for Europe.

Turkey's population within a couple of decades will be larger than Germany, currently the largest EU state. Turkish Muslims would be the single largest voting bloc within the EU. And it would be difficult to deny Turks for long the right possessed by other EU members to migrate anywhere within the EU.

How many Turks would move to Europe if given the chance? Well, about 1/6th of all people of Mexican descent in the world live in the United States. But the more realistic comparison would be Puerto Rico, which has unlimited legal migration rights with its rich neighbor, the U.S.

According to George Borjas, about 1/4th of Puerto Rico moved to the US mainland in a couple of decades, until the federal government started bribing Puerto Ricans to stay home with food stamps and the like. That would mean close to 20 million additional Muslims moving into Europe proper—on top of the 15 to 20 million already causing so much trouble.

That would be a cultural, political, and security disaster—not just for Europe, but also for the U.S.

Think about it this way: Admitting Turkey to the European Union would be very like admitting Mexico to the United States.

Indeed, Mexican President Vicente Fox explicitly wants an EU-like relationship with the U.S. and Canada. His former foreign minister Jorge Castaneda told the L.A. Times in 2001:

"That's what Fox essentially wants, the type of resource transfers that occurred in Spain and, before Spain, in Ireland, and, after Spain, in Portugal and Greece. The Germans were willing to build highways in Spain. Somebody else has to build our highways. We don't have the money." [Jorge Castaneda: Mexico's Man Abroad, LA Times, August 12, 2001, By Sergio Munoz]

For comparison:


Turkey's population is 69 million compared to Mexico's 105 million.


Turkey's per capita GDP is $6,700 compared to Mexico's $9,000.


Turkey's long term economic potential, while not awful, appears limited by a mediocre national average IQ. (A country's average IQ is an absolutely crucial datum in thinking about world affairs, but you won't see it cited many places other than VDARE.com).

Turkey's IQ structure appears to be fairly similar to Mexico's. Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen in IQ and the Wealth of Nations do report one solid study of Turkey: the Raven's Standard Progressive Matrices was standardized on a representative sample of 2,277 Turkish children in 1992. The Turkish children averaged 90 on a scale in which the British average 100. Two studies of Turkish immigrants in the Netherlands reported averages of 88 and 85.

Lynn and Vanhanen's database contains only one study for Mexico, and that from the less developed Southern Highlands, where the average was 87. They also report three studies of Mexican immigrants in America, with averages of 84, 95, and 84. The authors of The Bell Curve, Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray, gave 91 as their best guess for the average IQ of Latinos.

All is not lost in Europe. Some Europeans have got the message. As Ambrose Evans-Pritchard recently reported in the Daily Telegraph:

"A European commissioner set off a furious row yesterday after warning that Europe's Christian civilization risked being overrun by Islam. Fritz Bolkestein, the single market commissioner and a former leader of the Dutch liberals, said the European Union would ‘implode’ in its current form if 70 million Turkish Muslims were allowed to join. "

"He predicted that Turkish accession would overwhelm the fragile system and finish off any lingering dreams of a fully-integrated European superstate. In a speech at Leiden University, he compared the EU to the late Austrian-Hungarian empire, which took so many different peoples on board in such a haphazard fashion that it eventually became ungovernable."

[Muslim millions threaten EU values, says commissioner September 8, 2004]

Valery Giscard-D'Estaing, who was so weaselly about the Soviet threat when he was President of France, has surprisingly emerged as the Defender of Christendom by publicly expressing strong opposition to admitting Turkey. He says it would be "the end of Europe. "

Not to mention the lack of human rights in Turkey and the rise in honour killings.


According to girl's mother - the girl tried to get help from the police but each time she was sent back home. The Highest Court in Istanbul has upheld the decision of the lower instance - the murderers will get a very mild sentence. Every year in Turkey there are 300 "honour" killings.

So-called "honour killings" in Turkey have reached record levels. According to government figures, there are more than 200 a year – half of all the murders committed in the country. Now, in a sinister twist, comes the emergence of "honour suicides". The growing phenomenon has been linked to reforms to Turkey's penal code in 2005. That introduced mandatory life sentences for honour killers, whereas in the past, killers could receive a reduced sentence claiming provocation. Soon after the law was passed, the numbers of female suicides started to rocket.

A survey by a university in Turkey has shown almost 40% support for the practice of "honour killing".


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/women-told-you-have-dishonoured-your-family-please-kill-yourself-1655373.html

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Turkey-Honour-Killing-Medine-Memi-16-Buried-Alive-By-Relatives-For-Having-Male-Friends/Article/201002115542711

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4357158.stm

Mike 1972

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

The usual guff from this Nodin character.

Are you attacking the guff or the character?

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

For Turks, however, the alternative to healthy (?) nationalism would be Islamism, which is much more dangerous..

Like the alternative to crack is crystal meth ?

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Turkish Muslims would be the single largest voting bloc within the EU

"Turkish Muslims" would be no more of a voting bloc than Italian Catholics

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

How many Turks would move to Europe if given the chance?

They wouldnt be "moving to Europe" they would be In Europe

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

close to 20 million additional Muslims moving into Europe proper (sic)

Turkish citizens /=/ Muslims

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

on top of the 15 to 20 million already causing so much trouble.

Just like those bloody Irish troublemakers in 1970's/80's London ?

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Turkey's IQ structure appears to be..... but you won't see it cited many places other than VDARE.com

Racist much ?

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Europe's Christian (??) civilization (???) risked being overrun by Islam......... Fritz Bolkestein, the single market commissioner and a former leader of the Dutch liberals(????) , .

m@cc@

Mike 1972 wrote: »

"Turkish Muslims" would be no more of a voting bloc than Italian Catholics

Do you have figures to back this up? As I have it, if Turkey joined, it would be the most populous country in the EU and therefore have the most MPs.

Mike 1972

Voting blocs in the European parliament are based on party groupings and/or countries not religions.

m@cc@ wrote: »

As I have it, if Turkey joined, it would be the most populous country in the EU and therefore have the most MPs.

Possibly (or possibly not) but:
1) They would still have only a small percentage of the total MEP's
2) its damn all to do with religion

Nodin

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Turkey's long term economic potential, while not awful, appears limited by a mediocre national average IQ. (A country's average IQ is an absolutely crucial datum in thinking about world affairs, but you won't see it cited many places other than VDARE.com).

Turkey's IQ structure appears to be fairly similar to Mexico's. Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen in IQ and the Wealth of Nations do report one solid study of Turkey: the Raven's Standard Progressive Matrices was standardized on a representative sample of 2,277 Turkish children in 1992. The Turkish children averaged 90 on a scale in which the British average 100. Two studies of Turkish immigrants in the Netherlands reported averages of 88 and 85.

Achtung!!!!!!!!

Why didn't you link to the source of that? Shame?

IrishManSaipan

Nodin wrote: »

Achtung!!!!!!!!

Why didn't you link to the source of that? Shame?

Steve Sailer is the author.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/

Executive Steve

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

If they do join the EU, mass immigration from Turkey into Ireland will make eastern europen immigration seem like a drop in the ocean. Which is why all 166 TDs support Turkeys accession.

I am intrigued by your ideas - what do the 166 TD's stand to benefit by this?

Are they lizards?

IrishManSaipan

Executive Steve wrote: »

I am intrigued by your ideas - what do the 166 TD's stand to benefit by this?

Cowardice. Immigration has never been debated in the place where it actually matters. In Leinster House. They will tow the line and support Turkish accession.

Executive Steve wrote: »

Are they lizards?

Some would call them snakes.

Nodin

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Steve Sailer is the author.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/

O I know who he is already....Why you didn't link was the question.....

IrishManSaipan

Nodin wrote: »

O I know who he is already....Why you didn't link was the question.....

Ive linked to the mans blog. You will find the original article there.

pirelli

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Turkey is not a european country, ergo it should never be accepted into the EU. Seventy million turks descending on europe, no thanks.

Do you expect the entire population of Turkey will just up and leave to live in europe. Where do you think people flock to for sun sea and sand :Turkey, and alot more toursits than ever come to ireland. I would say almost the same amount travel to Turkey as you fear will travel to europe.

I cannot see what your worried about ( increased job competition!! hardly. Buying irish houses from Nama? ) other than being racist on a thread about genocide.

Mike 1972

pirelli wrote: »

Do you expect the entire population of Turkey will just up and leave to live in europe.

Even if they did why would they decend on Ireland when -to date Turkish citzens given the opportunity to come to Europe have mainly tended to choose Germany ?

IrishManSaipan

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Even if they did why would they decend on Ireland when -to date Turkish citzens given the opportunity to come to Europe have mainly tended to choose Germany ?

The Germans ceased visa restrictions on Turkey during the 60s and 70s. They are regreting it ever since.

m@cc@

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

The Germans ceased visa restrictions on Turkey during the 60s and 70s. They are regreting it ever since.

Same goes for the Dutch I should add.

Mike 1972

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

The Germans ceased visa restrictions on Turkey during the 60s and 70s. They are regreting it ever since.

Which even if true (nope) doesnt answer the question.

IrishManSaipan

pirelli wrote: »

Do you expect the entire population of Turkey will just up and leave to live in europe. Where do you think people flock to for sun sea and sand :Turkey, and alot more toursits than ever come to ireland. I would say almost the same amount travel to Turkey as you fear will travel to europe.

Six million Turks now live in the EU. Most arrived over the past 20-25 years. If they were to become a member of the EU they would have the right to freedom of movement and no longer need work permits to commence employment in Ireland. It would make eastern european immigration into Ireland seem like a drop in the ocean.

Can you see were I am going with this at all, at all?