JFK tower allowed a kid to direct air traffic

Keano · 04-03-2010 12:21PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Children and aviation don't exactly go hand in hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

Someone beat you too it post #43.

Total and complete over reaction to this thing. Do people really the pilot's would have accepted instructions from a child if it was just the child?

PeakOutput · 04-03-2010 12:34PM

it really is a pity that someone will probably lose their job over this

and i didnt look at that link run to da hills but if its the flight i am thinking off there was a fault with the autopilot that was ultimately the cause of the crash if it worked as it should have there would be no problem

IvyTheTerrible · 04-03-2010 12:39PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

it really is a pity that someone will probably lose their job over this

and i didnt look at that link run to da hills but if its the flight i am thinking off there was a fault with the autopilot that was ultimately the cause of the crash if it worked as it should have there would be no problem

It wasn't a fault as such, it was the way the plane was designed. Pilots just hadn't been trained to know it existed. The point being, that this child has his father right beside him, auto pilot on, and still managed to crash the plane.

PeakOutput · 04-03-2010 12:42PM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

It wasn't a fault as such, it was the way the plane was designed. Pilots just hadn't been trained to know it existed. The point being, that this child has his father right beside him, auto pilot on, and still managed to crash the plane.

ye but this was ground control in kennedy the worst possible outcome i can think of is two planes hit eachother at taxiing speed

i think two jfk runways crossover so that would have been very dangerous but i very much doubt that was the area he was 'controlling'

anyway i think the dad made a mistake but i dont think its a firing offence

Naos · 04-03-2010 12:49PM

Wow, slow news day is right.

When I first read the OP, I thought the kid was directing a plane in the air and was thinking that was pretty stupid.

However, it turns out he was directing planes on the ground. In fact, I wouldn't even call it directing, all he was really doing was asking the Planes to contact Departures and that they were clear for takeoff.

Where is the problem with that? I'm not an ATC but come on. The Dad is obviously ensuring that it is clear to take off and instructs the kid to merely relay that message. That's not going to change in a split second.

Asking the Pilots to contact Departures is not putting them in the air or in harms way either.

Gone Drinking · 04-03-2010 12:50PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDARfDJw80s

Heard this guy got the sack as well, after he recovered.

04-03-2010 12:54PM

Naos wrote: »

Where is the problem with that? I'm not an ATC but come on. The Dad is obviously ensuring that it is clear to take off and instructs the kid to merely relay that message. That's not going to change in a split second.

I just don't see why the child was there in the first place?

PeakOutput · 04-03-2010 12:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I just don't see why the child was there in the first place?

the dad was obviously just showing his kid around work you know like most parents do with their kids at some stage

geeky · 04-03-2010 01:07PM

Deleted!

miju · 04-03-2010 01:25PM

Riddle101 wrote: »

My question is, did the pilots of the plane know it was a kid directing them. If I was a pilot i'd be seriously angry with whoever allowed a child on the air, let alone direct a plane. I'd make sure it was a professional.

The answer is yes the pilots did. If you listen to the audio you can clearly hear the pilots commenting on the kid doing an "awesome job"

dvpower · 04-03-2010 01:43PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

it really is a pity that someone will probably lose their job over this

He should lose his job over the bad decision making process that led him to believe that letting his kid direct traffic wouldn't put his job at risk. Did he not realise what kind of damage he was potentially doing to public confidence in his profession?

If he's stupid enough to allow his kid do what he did then he's not smart enough to hold the kind of responsible position that he does.

I do feel a bit sorry for him though

Naos · 04-03-2010 02:17PM

dvpower wrote: »

He should lose his job over the bad decision making process that led him to believe that letting his kid direct traffic wouldn't put his job at risk. Did he not realise what kind of damage he was potentially doing to public confidence in his profession?

If he's stupid enough to allow his kid do what he did then he's not smart enough to hold the kind of responsible position that he does.

I do feel a bit sorry for him though

Have you listened to the call?

"Check in with departures."
"Clear for takeoff" (this one is a maybe but is really pushing it).

If an ATC told me to say those lines, I don't think It would have any affect on the planes. It's not really directing the traffic, it's akin to someone setting up a process and then getting someone else to just press the start button when they say so.

dvpower · 04-03-2010 02:45PM

Naos wrote: »

Have you listened to the call?

"Check in with departures."
"Clear for takeoff" (this one is a maybe but is really pushing it).

If an ATC told me to say those lines, I don't think It would have any affect on the planes. It's not really directing the traffic, it's akin to someone setting up a process and then getting someone else to just press the start button when they say so.

I don't think for a minute that safety was at any risk.

But that's not the point at all. The point is that public perception of the professionalism of ATC takes a hit and so public confidence in ATC takes a hit. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does. And that's why the need to get rid of the guy in question. Its a bit tough on him personally, but they need to make it clear that very high standards need to be kept and they don't tolerate any devience from these standards.

Saadyst · 04-03-2010 03:31PM

Some people really want to make a big thing out of nothing - it helps if they actually read about the issue as well, instead of just typing whatever nonsense they are imagining.

The kid only relayed a few lines such as "Contact departure", "Clear for takeoff", all while his dad was next to him, telling him what to say. He wasn't directing planes in the air while his dad was sat on the toilet!

Also, posters trying to compare this to having a kid in the cockpit of a plane, behind the wheel of a car or working in emergency dispatch... really? You think its EXACTLY like that? It's a bullsh*t bunch of comparisons, get off the high horse.

Now if it's not that, it's on to talking about 'the guy should have known this would undermine public confidence...' :rolleyes:

Overheal · 04-03-2010 05:18PM

dvpower wrote: »

He should lose his job over the bad decision making process that led him to believe that letting his kid direct traffic wouldn't put his job at risk. Did he not realise what kind of damage he was potentially doing to public confidence in his profession?

I'll tell you what it did to public confidence: SFA.

On the contrary Its a Healthy Reminder theres still men in the loop. Whats it going to be like If and when the entire process is Automated? Shudder the thought, if you've read any articles about how well the US Army's UAV Projects have been faring - Its no wonder the Air Force itself doesnt want to touch UAVs with a barge pole. Automating ATC would fare no better.

Gone Drinking wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDARfDJw80s

Heard this guy got the sack as well, after he recovered.

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Someone beat you too it post #43.

Total and complete over reaction to this thing. Do people really the pilot's would have accepted instructions from a child if it was just the child?

Actually no. They wouldve seeked a confirmation from someone else in Tower before receiving an irregular order and there was no indication that the child was unsupervised. This was not at all the case.

Having said that the kid was vouched for by the dad:

TOWER: Thats what you guys get when the kids are out of school (laugh)

So they knew a) it was a kid and b) There was an adult Traffic Controller right with him.

miju wrote: »

The answer is yes the pilots did. If you listen to the audio you can clearly hear the pilots commenting on the kid doing an "awesome job"

They also respond thusly:

PILOT: I wish I could bring my kid to work..

The Pilots and the ATC both know what is crossing the line and what isnt. This was not. Had a Pilot let their Child Co-Pilot or something: Yeah. That would be a Severe breach of public trust. Though when you think about it, pre-9/11 kids were allowed to Tour the Cockpit quite frequently. Something about wanting your kids to know stuff about the world.

Herb Powell · 04-03-2010 06:01PM

o1s1n wrote: »

The child could have easily said -

'Turn right!!! ha ha!! headshot!!! pwn pwn pwn!'

In which case two planes could have collided, killing everyone.

With no respawns.

Kids can be little sh1ts like that. Not really a chance worth taking.

first of all, ATC never say "turn right" on it's own as an instruction.
aaaaaaaaaand pilots would know it's a child taking the piss.
but I lol'd at the mental image

dvpower · 04-03-2010 06:04PM

Overheal wrote: »

I'll tell you what it did to public confidence: SFA.

On the contrary Its a Healthy Reminder theres still men in the loop.

Its a reminder that unauthorised people have easy access to what are supposed to be secure areas.

The FAA take a dim view of it

FAA wrote:

This lapse in judgment not only violated FAA's own policies, but common sense standards for professional conduct. These kinds of distractions are totally unacceptable

Even the ATC union aren't on side.

National Air Traffic Controllers Association wrote:

It is not indicative of the highest professional standards that controllers set for themselves and exceed each and everyday in the advancement of aviation safety

The night following this incident, it happened again when the controller brought his daughter to work.

Minstrel27 · 04-03-2010 07:06PM

Saadyst wrote: »

Some people really want to make a big thing out of nothing - it helps if they actually read about the issue as well, instead of just typing whatever nonsense they are imagining.

The kid only relayed a few lines such as "Contact departure", "Clear for takeoff", all while his dad was next to him, telling him what to say. He wasn't directing planes in the air while his dad was sat on the toilet!

Also, posters trying to compare this to having a kid in the cockpit of a plane, behind the wheel of a car or working in emergency dispatch... really? You think its EXACTLY like that? It's a bullsh*t bunch of comparisons, get off the high horse.

Now if it's not that, it's on to talking about 'the guy should have known this would undermine public confidence...' :rolleyes:

You would have no problem with this if it happened for every flight that you were on?

Overheal · 04-03-2010 07:08PM

Minstrel27 wrote: »

You would have no problem with this if it happened for every flight that you were on?

It doesnt. And again, this was Takeoff Clearance not Course and Heading.

dvpower wrote:

The FAA take a dim view of it

Even the ATC union aren't on side.

Unions and Authorities cover their own ass from the outraged politically over-correct public in surprise shock

JohnK · 04-03-2010 07:14PM

Minstrel27 wrote: »

You would have no problem with this if it happened for every flight that you were on?

I'd have no issue with it what-so-ever since firstly the plane was on the ground and secondly all instructions originated from a highly trained and competent ATC who was monitoring the whole thing.

Even if the plane was in the air the instructions still originated from a highly trained and competent ATC who was monitoring the whole thing.

JFK tower allowed a kid to direct air traffic

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