JFK tower allowed a kid to direct air traffic

03-03-2010 3:11pm #1

Just heard this on the radio :eek:.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35683779/ns/travel-news/

NEW YORK - A child apparently directed pilots last month from the air traffic control center at John F. Kennedy Airport, one of the nation's busiest airports, according to audio clips. The Federal Aviation Administration said Wednesday that it was investigating.
"Pending the outcome of our investigation, the employees involved in this incident are not controlling air traffic," the FAA said in a statement. "This behavior is not acceptable and does not demonstrate the kind of professionalism expected from all FAA employees." The agency declined to comment beyond the statement.
Recordings from mid-February — during a weeklong winter break for many New York schoolchildren — were posted last month on a Web site for air traffic control-listening aficionados.

I presume his Dad is definitely fired.. but what a legend of a kid.
20 years later when he goes for the job..
"what experience do you have?" ... "well.. funny story.."

Reganio 2 · 03-03-2010 3:13pm

Did any planes crash? No well hire them then. Good job kids.

Mark200 · 03-03-2010 3:15pm

I don't see the big deal really. Obviously it shouldn't have happened, but I'm sure his dad was right beside him just telling him what to say.

AnonoBoy · 03-03-2010 3:20pm

Lil' Blind Billy?

Sure he didn't do any harm when they let him drive in the Nascar Rally, what harm could he do telling some plane drivers where to go?

ejmaztec · 03-03-2010 3:20pm

They could employ him here, and he certainly wouldn't be looking for the sh1tload of money that Irish ATCs get paid. A Hershey bar a day should do it.

bonerm · 03-03-2010 3:29pm

Ronald Reagan would approve ..... were he looking up at this from his current location in the firey depths of hell.

Minstrel27 · 03-03-2010 3:29pm

Mark200 wrote: »

I don't see the big deal really.

Unless he is trained then it is a big deal.

Mark200 · 03-03-2010 3:32pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Unless he is trained then it is a big deal.

Trained for what? Speaking? His dad, who is trained, was probably telling him exactly what to say. That was my point.

That_Guy · 03-03-2010 3:33pm

And Bill Cullen says the young people today are a bunch of moaners with no work ethic. Ha.

admiralofthefleet · 03-03-2010 3:33pm

when did it happen? was it september 2001

That_Guy · 03-03-2010 3:34pm

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

when did it happen? was it september 2001

February 2010.

Riddle101 · 03-03-2010 3:49pm

At least this didn't happen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkCQ_-Id8zI

Minstrel27 · 03-03-2010 3:50pm

Mark200 wrote: »

Trained for what? Speaking? His dad, who is trained, was probably telling him exactly what to say. That was my point.

Do you condone children sitting on their parents lap while they are driving?

What harm if the parent is telling them what way to turn.

IvyTheTerrible · 03-03-2010 3:54pm

Mark200 wrote: »

Trained for what? Speaking? His dad, who is trained, was probably telling him exactly what to say. That was my point.

You don't remember the Aeroflot plane that crashed because the pilot let his child hold the controls while it was on auto-pilot. He was standing beside him telling him what to do too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

Canis Lupus · 03-03-2010 3:56pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Do you condone children sitting on their parents lap while they are driving?

What harm if the parent is telling them what way to turn.

Driving a car requires physical input from the child, ATC just required voice commands.

However

imo ATC isn't something to be messed around with. I don't think whoever let the child do it should be fired, just a severe reprimand.

Riddle101 · 03-03-2010 4:05pm

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Driving a car requires physical input from the child, ATC just required voice commands.

However

imo ATC isn't something to be messed around with. I don't think whoever let the child do it should be fired, just a severe reprimand.

It dosen't matter if the father was telling him what to say, there is no excuse for such disregard like that. It's an air traffic control tower, that is trusted to land planes, and when you do something like allowng your kid to land a plane you a putting the lives of the people on those planes in Jepordy.

My question is, did the pilots of the plane know it was a kid directing them. If I was a pilot i'd be seriously angry with whoever allowed a child on the air, let alone direct a plane. I'd make sure it was a professional.

Theta · 03-03-2010 4:08pm

How old is the kid a child is anyone under the age of 18 years old I suppose so it could have been a 17 year old kids being told what to say by his dad.

I have heard of scarier things happening in control towers.

o1s1n · 03-03-2010 4:08pm

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

You don't remember the Aeroflot plane that crashed because the pilot let his child hold the controls while it was on auto-pilot. He was standing beside him telling him what to do too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

eeek -

wiki wrote:

Soon the plane banked past a 45-degree angle (steeper than it was designed for). This increased the g-force on the pilots and crew, making their bodies feel much heavier than usual, and making it impossible for the Captain to replace his son at the controls. After banking as much as 90 degrees, the remaining functions of the autopilot tried to correct the plane's altitude by putting the plane in an almost vertical ascent, nearly stalling the plane. The co-pilot and Eldar managed to get the plane into a nosedive, which reduced the G-force on the pilots and enabled the Captain to take the controls. Though he and his co-pilot did regain control, their altitude by then was too low to recover, and the plane crashed at high speed, killing all aboard.

IvyTheTerrible · 03-03-2010 4:13pm

o1s1n wrote: »

eeek -

My thoughts exactly!

aDeener · 03-03-2010 4:15pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Do you condone children sitting on their parents lap while they are driving?

What harm if the parent is telling them what way to turn.

the child was not in the way of the pilots flying, thats completely different

aDeener · 03-03-2010 4:17pm

Riddle101 wrote: »

It dosen't matter if the father was telling him what to say, there is no excuse for such disregard like that. It's an air traffic control tower, that is trusted to land planes, and when you do something like allowng your kid to land a plane you a putting the lives of the people on those planes in Jepordy.

My question is, did the pilots of the plane know it was a kid directing them. If I was a pilot i'd be seriously angry with whoever allowed a child on the air, let alone direct a plane. I'd make sure it was a professional.

so if the correct route for the plane was say, "turn left". qualified father told child to say "turn left" which child duly said and pilots duly done. where is the problem?

Hagar · 03-03-2010 4:20pm

aDeener wrote: »

so if the correct route for the plane was say, "turn left". qualified father told child to say "turn left" which child duly said and pilots duly done. where is the problem?

Exactly, big bullies, leave little Muhammed alone. :mad:

JohnK · 03-03-2010 4:22pm

Complete over reaction IMO, a fully qualified ATC was in control at all times and the child mearly vocalised the instructions.

aidan24326 · 03-03-2010 4:22pm

Mark200 wrote: »

I don't see the big deal really. Obviously it shouldn't have happened, but I'm sure his dad was right beside him just telling him what to say.

As mentioned:

Aeroflot Flight 593, was a "Russian Airlines"[1] Airbus A310 passenger airliner, registration F-OGQS, operating on behalf of Aeroflot, which crashed into a hillside in Kemerovo Oblast on 23 March 1994. All 75 passengers and crew were killed.

Voice and flight data recorders revealed that the pilot's 15-year-old son Eldar Kudrinsky, while seated at the controls, had unknowingly disabled the A310's autopilot's control of the ailerons, which put the aircraft into a steep bank, and then an uncontrolled dive. The pilots were not aware of the partial disconnection of the autopilot, which occurred with no audible alarm, and did not regain control of the aircraft.

ATC is no place for a child either. Full stop.

o1s1n · 03-03-2010 4:23pm

aDeener wrote: »

so if the correct route for the plane was say, "turn left". qualified father told child to say "turn left" which child duly said and pilots duly done. where is the problem?

The child could have easily said -

'Turn right!!! ha ha!! headshot!!! pwn pwn pwn!'

In which case two planes could have collided, killing everyone.

With no respawns.

Kids can be little sh1ts like that. Not really a chance worth taking.

aDeener · 03-03-2010 4:25pm

o1s1n wrote: »

The child could have easily said -

'Turn right!!! ha ha!! headshot!!! pwn pwn pwn!'

In which case two planes could have collided, killing everyone.

With no respawns.

Kids can be little sh1ts like that. Not really a chance worth taking.

no respawns? well now you're just being unrealistic

partyatmygaff · 03-03-2010 4:27pm

It mightn't seem like a big deal to you guys but relaying instructions by a child could have caused a major accident. The kid could have called out the wrong callsign or directed them to a wrong heading or altitude. It's far too risky.

JohnK · 03-03-2010 4:28pm

And had he done so his father who was sitting right next to him and also on the radio would have corrected the instructions.

kingtut · 03-03-2010 4:38pm

Every little story makes its way to After Hours these days, it's becoming it's own tabloid

I used to like After Hours but these days I look at it even less and less. It's a shame really.

Minstrel27 · 03-03-2010 4:40pm

aDeener wrote: »

the child was not in the way of the pilots flying, thats completely different

You do realise what the ATC do yes? They inform all pilots of what's happening in the air around them and give clearances for landing and so on.

Riddle101 · 03-03-2010 4:41pm

aDeener wrote: »

so if the correct route for the plane was say, "turn left". qualified father told child to say "turn left" which child duly said and pilots duly done. where is the problem?

The problem is total disregard or lack of respect for safety and regulation. If you're an Air Trafic Controller, you're supposed to have responsibility and professionalism. You don't just let you're kid on the controls and tell him to say this or that because it dosen't matter, if he was guiding the kid it's wrong. As someone already said what if the kid gives the wrong message to the plane, he's potentially a health risk to all the people onboard the plane and a liability to the father who in his carelessness should have known better.

Kensington · 03-03-2010 4:46pm

Unbelievable how many people are of the "ah sure it's grand, what harm was he doing" opinion.

It's no wonder this country is as ****ed as it is...

Overheal · 03-03-2010 4:48pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Do you condone children sitting on their parents lap while they are driving?

What harm if the parent is telling them what way to turn.

Riddle101 wrote: »

It dosen't matter if the father was telling him what to say, there is no excuse for such disregard like that. It's an air traffic control tower, that is trusted to land planes, and when you do something like allowng your kid to land a plane you a putting the lives of the people on those planes in Jepordy.

My question is, did the pilots of the plane know it was a kid directing them [Yes they did. Audio: http://consumerist.com/2010/03/listen-as-a-kid-directs-air-traffic-at-jfk.html - Overheal] . If I was a pilot i'd be seriously angry with whoever allowed a child on the air, let alone direct a plane. I'd make sure it was a professional.

JFK TOWER: Jet Blue 171 contact departure
PILOT: Over to departure jet blue 171, awesome job.
The child appears to be supervised as a controller explains the reason for the young voice.
JFK TOWER: That's what you get guys when the kids are out of school. (laugh)

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It mightn't seem like a big deal to you guys but relaying instructions by a child could have caused a major accident. The kid could have called out the wrong callsign or directed them to a wrong heading or altitude. It's far too risky.

We're not talking about driving a car or hard-banking a Jet Liner. Theres enough Time for the Parent to intercept a bad radio call an Override it "*Callsign* Strike Last; *Correct Command*" - More importantly Im not sure he actually issued any other commands besides Contact Departure and Cleared for Takeoff? Well, Adios and Adios Amigo :pac:

We're also not talking about any G-Forces preventing the ATC from getting back in the hotseat to avoid a major catastrophe. Even if he cleared a plane for takeoff in Error, there is a good minute before clearance and the actual takeoff burn. Plllenty of time to tell a plane to abort and throttle down before it releases brakes and begins its run.

I can understand why some people may be upset but I think this was harmless. My comment on Consumerist:

Overheal wrote:

Nobody understands the risks of being an ATC better than an ATC. I hardly think one of them would jeopardize anyones safety, doing something like that.
It sounds every bit like a slow session where the ATC had time to bring his kid to work AND let him get coached on a couple simple radio commands. I dont imagine he did this during Peak Hours or anything and more importantly No this would not affect my feeling of safety next time I fly. IF ANYTHING is a friendly reminder that theres still Humans in the loop. And I like knowing that, frankly.

And the response I got from a Reader-come-Air Traffic Controller:

fs2k2isfun wrote:

Using the call signs, I was able to determine the recording took place around 7:00 p.m., Eastern time. I'm not familiar with the flow at JFK at that time, but I would think that would be a fairly busy time. Regardless, the kid did a good job and was easier to understand than some of the controllers I work with every day.

partyatmygaff · 03-03-2010 4:49pm

Kensington wrote: »

Unbelievable how many people are of the "ah sure it's grand, what harm was he doing" opinion.

It's no wonder this country is as ****ed as it is...

FFS, do we have to drag politics in to every single damn thread in this forum?

Sir Gallagher · 03-03-2010 4:53pm

I wonder if one of the pilots lifted the lid on the whole thing, i know that if i was one of the pilots taking off or landing a plane and some asshole's kid started giving me instructions i wouldn't be too pleased.

JohnK · 03-03-2010 4:54pm

None of them sounded unhappy with it in the audio.

Sir Gallagher · 03-03-2010 4:55pm

Kensington wrote: »

Unbelievable how many people are of the "ah sure it's grand, what harm was he doing" opinion.

It's no wonder this country is as ****ed as it is...

I reckon you must say this at least twenty times a day.

Dave! · 03-03-2010 5:01pm

Letting child verbalise father's instructions = no big deal

Letting child fly the plane = big deal

Overheal · 03-03-2010 5:02pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

I wonder if one of the pilots lifted the lid on the whole thing, i know that if i was one of the pilots taking off or landing a plane and some asshole's kid started giving me instructions i wouldn't be too pleased.

Its a good question how it ever leaked. Maybe the kid bragged about it or something. Or someone else in the tower got annoyed with it.

PirateShampoo · 03-03-2010 5:04pm

Is it to late for a "dey turk errr jerbs!" post?

rgt320q · 03-03-2010 5:17pm

Look lads, the ATC may be short but there's no need for namecalling.

G_R · 03-03-2010 6:07pm

ah lads come on, the kid came to work with his dad, and the dad let him give very simple instructions on the radio, cleared for departure etc.

Anyway, as far as I know, could be wrong, but i think that this controller only taxis the plane to the runway, a different controller takes over then to get it into the air. Nothing could really have gone wrong.

If the father left the kid sitting there for 20 mins, then there would be a problem, but he didnt, he was sitting beside him the whole time, making sure that everything he said was right and he didnt touch any buttons he shouldn't.

Pretty slow news day that this made it all around the world

Herb Powell · 03-03-2010 6:07pm

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

You don't remember the Aeroflot plane that crashed because the pilot let his child hold the controls while it was on auto-pilot. He was standing beside him telling him what to do too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

that is very different now in fairness

aDeener · 03-03-2010 6:16pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

You do realise what the ATC do yes? They inform all pilots of what's happening in the air around them and give clearances for landing and so on.

what difference does it make once the instructions given are correct?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 03-03-2010 6:17pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Unless he is trained then it is a big deal.

No it's not.

If something serious happened, or the kid was left alone to control traffic then there would be a problem. This, more than likely, happened in a very controlled environment

Minstrel27 · 03-03-2010 6:19pm

aDeener wrote: »

what difference does it make once the instructions given are correct?

I found it hard to understand what he was saying.

donvito99 · 03-03-2010 6:38pm

We should let kids run everything in Dublin Airport. We've got nothing to lose.

MikeC101 · 03-03-2010 7:15pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

FFS, do we have to drag politics in to every single damn thread in this forum?

Drag politics in, like the way the current government have dragged this country down? It's no wonder *completely unrelated topic* is *in a shambles / rising / falling / staying the same* with people all thinking *reference to attitudes displayed in the thread*.

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

I reckon you must say this at least twenty times a day.

In between being outraged, appalled, shocked and disgusted at things, along with regular doses of "only in Ireland could this happen!" I'd imagine.

CrazyRabbit · 03-03-2010 7:46pm

The planes where all on the ground. The parent was issuing the commands and the kid just repeated them. Any mistake by the kid would have been instantly corrected.

I don't see anything dangerous in this particular case, but a child/unauthorised person should not have been in the control tower at all.

flowersagogo · 03-03-2010 7:48pm

i wonder i'f he'll let the kid sign on for him...

Padraig Mor · 03-03-2010 8:11pm

FFS some people here would really want to get a life. This was a completely harmless incidebt blown out of proportion. Read the article:

The few quick exchanges between the elementary-school-aged child and jets waiting to take off from JFK, one of the nation's busiest airports, appeared to delight pilots at the time.

"I wish I could bring my kid to work," one said, wistfully.
.............................................................................

On the recording, which lasts about a minute, the boy appears to repeat instructions fed to him by his father. At no time does the child tell aircraft how to maneuver or where they should go.
.................................................................................

the boy instructs the same JetBlue flight to contact departure controllers. The pilot responds: "Over to departure JetBlue 171, awesome job!"

There are a few more similar exchanges. A pilot laughs. The boy can be overheard giggling.

In his last call, the youngster signs off, "Adios, amigo." The pilot responds in kind

...............................................................................

LiveATC [planespotter site where the recordings were posted] founder Dave Pascoe, a pilot and radio enthusiast, said he was sickened at the thought that the controller could be disciplined.
"I absolutely believe that this is being blown out of proportion," he said. "This is just a completely controlled situation. A child was being told exactly what to say."
He added: "I think it's just fantastic that this guy cared enough to take his kid to work. How many parents take their kids to work these days?"

JFK tower allowed a kid to direct air traffic

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