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JFK tower allowed a kid to direct air traffic

  • 03-03-2010 3:11pm
    #1
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭


    Just heard this on the radio :eek:.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35683779/ns/travel-news/
    NEW YORK - A child apparently directed pilots last month from the air traffic control center at John F. Kennedy Airport, one of the nation's busiest airports, according to audio clips. The Federal Aviation Administration said Wednesday that it was investigating.
    "Pending the outcome of our investigation, the employees involved in this incident are not controlling air traffic," the FAA said in a statement. "This behavior is not acceptable and does not demonstrate the kind of professionalism expected from all FAA employees." The agency declined to comment beyond the statement.
    Recordings from mid-February — during a weeklong winter break for many New York schoolchildren — were posted last month on a Web site for air traffic control-listening aficionados.

    I presume his Dad is definitely fired.. but what a legend of a kid.
    20 years later when he goes for the job..
    "what experience do you have?" ... "well.. funny story.."


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,732 ✭✭✭Reganio 2


    Did any planes crash? No well hire them then. Good job kids.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    I don't see the big deal really. Obviously it shouldn't have happened, but I'm sure his dad was right beside him just telling him what to say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Lil' Blind Billy?

    Sure he didn't do any harm when they let him drive in the Nascar Rally, what harm could he do telling some plane drivers where to go?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    They could employ him here, and he certainly wouldn't be looking for the sh1tload of money that Irish ATCs get paid. A Hershey bar a day should do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,595 ✭✭✭bonerm


    Ronald Reagan would approve ..... were he looking up at this from his current location in the firey depths of hell.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    Mark200 wrote: »
    I don't see the big deal really.

    Unless he is trained then it is a big deal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Minstrel27 wrote: »
    Unless he is trained then it is a big deal.

    Trained for what? Speaking? His dad, who is trained, was probably telling him exactly what to say. That was my point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,342 ✭✭✭✭That_Guy


    And Bill Cullen says the young people today are a bunch of moaners with no work ethic. Ha.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭admiralofthefleet


    when did it happen? was it september 2001


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,342 ✭✭✭✭That_Guy


    when did it happen? was it september 2001

    February 2010.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,503 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    At least this didn't happen



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Trained for what? Speaking? His dad, who is trained, was probably telling him exactly what to say. That was my point.

    Do you condone children sitting on their parents lap while they are driving?

    What harm if the parent is telling them what way to turn.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Trained for what? Speaking? His dad, who is trained, was probably telling him exactly what to say. That was my point.

    You don't remember the Aeroflot plane that crashed because the pilot let his child hold the controls while it was on auto-pilot. He was standing beside him telling him what to do too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,880 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    Minstrel27 wrote: »
    Do you condone children sitting on their parents lap while they are driving?

    What harm if the parent is telling them what way to turn.

    Driving a car requires physical input from the child, ATC just required voice commands.

    However

    imo ATC isn't something to be messed around with. I don't think whoever let the child do it should be fired, just a severe reprimand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,503 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    Driving a car requires physical input from the child, ATC just required voice commands.

    However

    imo ATC isn't something to be messed around with. I don't think whoever let the child do it should be fired, just a severe reprimand.

    It dosen't matter if the father was telling him what to say, there is no excuse for such disregard like that. It's an air traffic control tower, that is trusted to land planes, and when you do something like allowng your kid to land a plane you a putting the lives of the people on those planes in Jepordy.

    My question is, did the pilots of the plane know it was a kid directing them. If I was a pilot i'd be seriously angry with whoever allowed a child on the air, let alone direct a plane. I'd make sure it was a professional.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭Theta


    How old is the kid a child is anyone under the age of 18 years old I suppose so it could have been a 17 year old kids being told what to say by his dad.

    I have heard of scarier things happening in control towers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,075 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    You don't remember the Aeroflot plane that crashed because the pilot let his child hold the controls while it was on auto-pilot. He was standing beside him telling him what to do too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593



    eeek -
    wiki wrote:
    Soon the plane banked past a 45-degree angle (steeper than it was designed for). This increased the g-force on the pilots and crew, making their bodies feel much heavier than usual, and making it impossible for the Captain to replace his son at the controls. After banking as much as 90 degrees, the remaining functions of the autopilot tried to correct the plane's altitude by putting the plane in an almost vertical ascent, nearly stalling the plane. The co-pilot and Eldar managed to get the plane into a nosedive, which reduced the G-force on the pilots and enabled the Captain to take the controls. Though he and his co-pilot did regain control, their altitude by then was too low to recover, and the plane crashed at high speed, killing all aboard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    o1s1n wrote: »
    eeek -
    My thoughts exactly!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Minstrel27 wrote: »
    Do you condone children sitting on their parents lap while they are driving?

    What harm if the parent is telling them what way to turn.

    the child was not in the way of the pilots flying, thats completely different


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    It dosen't matter if the father was telling him what to say, there is no excuse for such disregard like that. It's an air traffic control tower, that is trusted to land planes, and when you do something like allowng your kid to land a plane you a putting the lives of the people on those planes in Jepordy.

    My question is, did the pilots of the plane know it was a kid directing them. If I was a pilot i'd be seriously angry with whoever allowed a child on the air, let alone direct a plane. I'd make sure it was a professional.

    so if the correct route for the plane was say, "turn left". qualified father told child to say "turn left" which child duly said and pilots duly done. where is the problem?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    aDeener wrote: »
    so if the correct route for the plane was say, "turn left". qualified father told child to say "turn left" which child duly said and pilots duly done. where is the problem?
    Exactly, big bullies, leave little Muhammed alone. :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,780 ✭✭✭JohnK


    Complete over reaction IMO, a fully qualified ATC was in control at all times and the child mearly vocalised the instructions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Mark200 wrote: »
    I don't see the big deal really. Obviously it shouldn't have happened, but I'm sure his dad was right beside him just telling him what to say.


    As mentioned:
    Aeroflot Flight 593, was a "Russian Airlines"[1] Airbus A310 passenger airliner, registration F-OGQS, operating on behalf of Aeroflot, which crashed into a hillside in Kemerovo Oblast on 23 March 1994. All 75 passengers and crew were killed.

    Voice and flight data recorders revealed that the pilot's 15-year-old son Eldar Kudrinsky, while seated at the controls, had unknowingly disabled the A310's autopilot's control of the ailerons, which put the aircraft into a steep bank, and then an uncontrolled dive. The pilots were not aware of the partial disconnection of the autopilot, which occurred with no audible alarm, and did not regain control of the aircraft.

    ATC is no place for a child either. Full stop.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,075 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    aDeener wrote: »
    so if the correct route for the plane was say, "turn left". qualified father told child to say "turn left" which child duly said and pilots duly done. where is the problem?

    The child could have easily said -

    'Turn right!!! ha ha!! headshot!!! pwn pwn pwn!'

    In which case two planes could have collided, killing everyone.

    With no respawns.

    Kids can be little sh1ts like that. Not really a chance worth taking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    o1s1n wrote: »
    The child could have easily said -

    'Turn right!!! ha ha!! headshot!!! pwn pwn pwn!'

    In which case two planes could have collided, killing everyone.

    With no respawns.

    Kids can be little sh1ts like that. Not really a chance worth taking.


    no respawns? well now you're just being unrealistic ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    It mightn't seem like a big deal to you guys but relaying instructions by a child could have caused a major accident. The kid could have called out the wrong callsign or directed them to a wrong heading or altitude. It's far too risky.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,780 ✭✭✭JohnK


    And had he done so his father who was sitting right next to him and also on the radio would have corrected the instructions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭kingtut


    Every little story makes its way to After Hours these days, it's becoming it's own tabloid :(

    I used to like After Hours but these days I look at it even less and less. It's a shame really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    aDeener wrote: »
    the child was not in the way of the pilots flying, thats completely different

    You do realise what the ATC do yes? They inform all pilots of what's happening in the air around them and give clearances for landing and so on.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,503 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    aDeener wrote: »
    so if the correct route for the plane was say, "turn left". qualified father told child to say "turn left" which child duly said and pilots duly done. where is the problem?

    The problem is total disregard or lack of respect for safety and regulation. If you're an Air Trafic Controller, you're supposed to have responsibility and professionalism. You don't just let you're kid on the controls and tell him to say this or that because it dosen't matter, if he was guiding the kid it's wrong. As someone already said what if the kid gives the wrong message to the plane, he's potentially a health risk to all the people onboard the plane and a liability to the father who in his carelessness should have known better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    Unbelievable how many people are of the "ah sure it's grand, what harm was he doing" opinion.

    It's no wonder this country is as ****ed as it is...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Minstrel27 wrote: »
    Do you condone children sitting on their parents lap while they are driving?

    What harm if the parent is telling them what way to turn.
    Riddle101 wrote: »
    It dosen't matter if the father was telling him what to say, there is no excuse for such disregard like that. It's an air traffic control tower, that is trusted to land planes, and when you do something like allowng your kid to land a plane you a putting the lives of the people on those planes in Jepordy.

    My question is, did the pilots of the plane know it was a kid directing them [Yes they did. Audio: http://consumerist.com/2010/03/listen-as-a-kid-directs-air-traffic-at-jfk.html - Overheal] . If I was a pilot i'd be seriously angry with whoever allowed a child on the air, let alone direct a plane. I'd make sure it was a professional.
    JFK TOWER: Jet Blue 171 contact departure
    PILOT: Over to departure jet blue 171, awesome job.
    The child appears to be supervised as a controller explains the reason for the young voice.
    JFK TOWER: That's what you get guys when the kids are out of school. (laugh)
    It mightn't seem like a big deal to you guys but relaying instructions by a child could have caused a major accident. The kid could have called out the wrong callsign or directed them to a wrong heading or altitude. It's far too risky.
    We're not talking about driving a car or hard-banking a Jet Liner. Theres enough Time for the Parent to intercept a bad radio call an Override it "*Callsign* Strike Last; *Correct Command*" - More importantly Im not sure he actually issued any other commands besides Contact Departure and Cleared for Takeoff? Well, Adios and Adios Amigo :pac:

    We're also not talking about any G-Forces preventing the ATC from getting back in the hotseat to avoid a major catastrophe. Even if he cleared a plane for takeoff in Error, there is a good minute before clearance and the actual takeoff burn. Plllenty of time to tell a plane to abort and throttle down before it releases brakes and begins its run.

    I can understand why some people may be upset but I think this was harmless. My comment on Consumerist:
    Overheal wrote:
    Nobody understands the risks of being an ATC better than an ATC. I hardly think one of them would jeopardize anyones safety, doing something like that.
    It sounds every bit like a slow session where the ATC had time to bring his kid to work AND let him get coached on a couple simple radio commands. I dont imagine he did this during Peak Hours or anything and more importantly No this would not affect my feeling of safety next time I fly. IF ANYTHING is a friendly reminder that theres still Humans in the loop. And I like knowing that, frankly.
    And the response I got from a Reader-come-Air Traffic Controller:
    fs2k2isfun wrote:
    Using the call signs, I was able to determine the recording took place around 7:00 p.m., Eastern time. I'm not familiar with the flow at JFK at that time, but I would think that would be a fairly busy time. Regardless, the kid did a good job and was easier to understand than some of the controllers I work with every day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Kensington wrote: »
    Unbelievable how many people are of the "ah sure it's grand, what harm was he doing" opinion.

    It's no wonder this country is as ****ed as it is...
    FFS, do we have to drag politics in to every single damn thread in this forum?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    I wonder if one of the pilots lifted the lid on the whole thing, i know that if i was one of the pilots taking off or landing a plane and some asshole's kid started giving me instructions i wouldn't be too pleased.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,780 ✭✭✭JohnK


    None of them sounded unhappy with it in the audio.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    Kensington wrote: »
    Unbelievable how many people are of the "ah sure it's grand, what harm was he doing" opinion.

    It's no wonder this country is as ****ed as it is...

    I reckon you must say this at least twenty times a day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Letting child verbalise father's instructions = no big deal

    Letting child fly the plane = big deal


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I wonder if one of the pilots lifted the lid on the whole thing, i know that if i was one of the pilots taking off or landing a plane and some asshole's kid started giving me instructions i wouldn't be too pleased.
    Its a good question how it ever leaked. Maybe the kid bragged about it or something. Or someone else in the tower got annoyed with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    Is it to late for a "dey turk errr jerbs!" post?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 573 ✭✭✭rgt320q


    Look lads, the ATC may be short but there's no need for namecalling.


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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    ah lads come on, the kid came to work with his dad, and the dad let him give very simple instructions on the radio, cleared for departure etc.

    Anyway, as far as I know, could be wrong, but i think that this controller only taxis the plane to the runway, a different controller takes over then to get it into the air. Nothing could really have gone wrong.

    If the father left the kid sitting there for 20 mins, then there would be a problem, but he didnt, he was sitting beside him the whole time, making sure that everything he said was right and he didnt touch any buttons he shouldn't.

    Pretty slow news day that this made it all around the world


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    You don't remember the Aeroflot plane that crashed because the pilot let his child hold the controls while it was on auto-pilot. He was standing beside him telling him what to do too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
    that is very different now in fairness


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Minstrel27 wrote: »
    You do realise what the ATC do yes? They inform all pilots of what's happening in the air around them and give clearances for landing and so on.
    what difference does it make once the instructions given are correct?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,220 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Minstrel27 wrote: »
    Unless he is trained then it is a big deal.

    No it's not.

    If something serious happened, or the kid was left alone to control traffic then there would be a problem. This, more than likely, happened in a very controlled environment ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    aDeener wrote: »
    what difference does it make once the instructions given are correct?

    I found it hard to understand what he was saying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    We should let kids run everything in Dublin Airport. We've got nothing to lose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    FFS, do we have to drag politics in to every single damn thread in this forum?

    Drag politics in, like the way the current government have dragged this country down? It's no wonder *completely unrelated topic* is *in a shambles / rising / falling / staying the same* with people all thinking *reference to attitudes displayed in the thread*.
    I reckon you must say this at least twenty times a day.

    In between being outraged, appalled, shocked and disgusted at things, along with regular doses of "only in Ireland could this happen!" I'd imagine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    The planes where all on the ground. The parent was issuing the commands and the kid just repeated them. Any mistake by the kid would have been instantly corrected.

    I don't see anything dangerous in this particular case, but a child/unauthorised person should not have been in the control tower at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭flowersagogo


    i wonder i'f he'll let the kid sign on for him...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,714 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    FFS some people here would really want to get a life. This was a completely harmless incidebt blown out of proportion. Read the article:
    The few quick exchanges between the elementary-school-aged child and jets waiting to take off from JFK, one of the nation's busiest airports, appeared to delight pilots at the time.

    "I wish I could bring my kid to work," one said, wistfully.
    .............................................................................

    On the recording, which lasts about a minute, the boy appears to repeat instructions fed to him by his father. At no time does the child tell aircraft how to maneuver or where they should go.
    .................................................................................

    the boy instructs the same JetBlue flight to contact departure controllers. The pilot responds: "Over to departure JetBlue 171, awesome job!"

    There are a few more similar exchanges. A pilot laughs. The boy can be overheard giggling.

    In his last call, the youngster signs off, "Adios, amigo." The pilot responds in kind

    ...............................................................................

    LiveATC [planespotter site where the recordings were posted] founder Dave Pascoe, a pilot and radio enthusiast, said he was sickened at the thought that the controller could be disciplined.
    "I absolutely believe that this is being blown out of proportion," he said. "This is just a completely controlled situation. A child was being told exactly what to say."
    He added: "I think it's just fantastic that this guy cared enough to take his kid to work. How many parents take their kids to work these days?"


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