Allegations of Irish exam 'grade inflation'

Helix · 01-03-2010 08:58PM

in interviewed one of the head guys from a large multinational middleware company recently, and he said that the standard of graduates in ireland these days is an embarrassment - that technical degrees and phds from irish colleges arent worth a ****e nw

ya-ba-da-ba-doo · 01-03-2010 09:32PM

token56 wrote: »

I'm only going to comment on second level education for the moment, but the maths in leaving cert has certainly become easier. I only did my LC in 04/05 (which wasn't greatly difficult in itself compared to other years in my opinion), but if you even look at the new maths course that is being proposed (dubbed "Project Maths") it really is a joke. Granted only paper 2 for the revised syllabus is available, but even that in itself is enough to see that the exam has been greatly simplified despite its new structure.

If anyone would like to take a look at a sample maths paper from the revised syllabus and compare themselves you can find one here:

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/PM_ATAL_sample_Jan_2010.pdf

here is an example of a paper from just about a decade ago

http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/1999/LC003ALP200EV.PDF

Edit: I actually want to give credit to one of the questions, which is more challenging and would require a better understanding rather than just learning off the necessary material. However I still believe it is of an easier standard despite the marking scheme. Also upon further investigation, there has also apparently been major sections completely dropped, such as matrices and vectors, which in my opinion is a complete disaster for anyone who wants to do engineering.

I know a few other courses have changed since I did the LC also, such as geography, but I'm not sure if they were changed for the better or for the worse.

You're giving out a false impression here. That "project maths" paper is only being used in 24 schools nationwide. It's not by any means the new syllabus.

Overheal · 01-03-2010 09:41PM

To keep standards higher: Set the bar lower.

The perfect crime!

Its been a problem I have oft heard about in the US for the last 20 years or so: teaching students to pass the SATs, not to excel in life.

Just more grounds to support the argument for Grading-Over-Time, or whatever you wanna call it. Leaving it to SATs and LCs and putting *that much pressure* on students about it - we all remember the suicides - its brought the system down. Reform? Yes Please.

partyatmygaff · 01-03-2010 10:25PM

ya-ba-da-ba-doo wrote: »

You're giving out a false impression here. That "project maths" paper is only being used in 24 schools nationwide. It's not by any means the new syllabus.

Why the hell do you think it's being tested in 24 schools then this year?

Whoever told you that it's not the new syllabus is either stupid or was just messing with you.

transylman · 01-03-2010 10:41PM

That sample maths paper is shocking. Question 2 isn't even worthy of an ordinary level junior cert question. If that represents the current math curriculum then from the point of view of someone going on to do engineering or physics it's almost worthless.

nibtrix · 01-03-2010 11:08PM

Ethan Tinkling Width wrote: »

What I can say though is that college is a piece of pi$$ which probably shouldn't be the case. I've got two degrees, bot of them involved a years partying and two weeks mad study before the exams. Which was pretty much everyones tactic bar the library gnomes.

Degree churning factories, we kinda thought we were challenged at the time but that was before 'the real world'. All college courses should involve practical work experience imo.

Your degrees only took a year each? I'm really, really hoping that was meant to be 3 or 4 years....

Piste · 02-03-2010 12:31AM

ongarite wrote: »

Because maths relies on the pupil having an understanding of the basic principles and applying logic to solve the problem.
The way the Leaving Cert is taught now, is to learn off past papers and possible questions and literally vomit back what your teacher has told you to remember back onto the paper.
It requires literally no understanding of the paper, only a good memory.

This is almost exactly what I did for honours maths, don't remember any of it now.

Orla K · 02-03-2010 03:45AM

I guess no one has heard of the flynn effect so

I think it that coupled with what someone said earlier of predicting the exams. I do think the leaving cert/cao system is completely flawed, it just doesn't work well, people are going into courses that don't suit them.

Maybe I'm too cynical (I doubt it!) but I'm thinking that they are using this as the first stepping stone to re-introduce fees. They are being blocked by it every time they even talk about it and now like other things they are changing public perception of an area of it, bring in how no fees, the dumbing down of the leaving cert and the ease of getting a honors degree are all connected and if we bring in fees everything will magicaly change. They will somehow change the majority of peoples minds about fees and we'll end up having to fork out a fortune on fees.

cleremy jarkson · 02-03-2010 03:57AM

One example I can think of that indicates clearly how much easier the L.C has become is to compare a higher level economics paper from 1992 or 93 to one from 2008 etc...

The questions were far tougher and required far greater depth of knowledge. Instead of lots of small questions on engaging topics ( you are advisor to the minister for finance..what are the social costs and benefits of doing X) there were difficult essay type questions.

I remember seeing a statistic years ago when I was in 6th year that only 0.5% of the students got an A1 in economics in 1993, I think it was...nowadays its more like 4 or 5 %.

And also, the H.L maths exams from 94/ 95 were very tough (from what I remember looking at the past papers) and I'd say only a truly gifted student could have gotten an A1 in those days. There were less "proofs" questions than there are nowadays. And the part C's were very very tricky.
Nowadays those same people would easily get an A1 and many reasonably smart students can get an A2, maybe an A1, just by knowing the proofs and knowing how to answer past papers questions off by heart.

Also...L.C biology is a pisstake...a week of studying from the book would be enough for most to get an A1.

randylonghorn · 02-03-2010 05:12AM

Officials are to review the number of first-class honours degrees, which have been awarded by third level institutions since 1991.

This is a laugh. A few years back they were badmouthing the universities for awarding so few Firsts by comparison to the UK and US, and calling for them to come into line with international norms, and asking why were Irish universities being so meeeeeaaaaaannnnn?!

Em ... maybe because they were trying to protect standards?

The-Rigger wrote: »

I thought it was a case that were being marked easier.
That's what I've always heard, right or wrong.

I think it's a combination. Imho, standards have dropped, in certain subjects anyway.

But there is also a rote learning and regurgitation culture which has all but overthrown the Irish school system. The ability to think and to reason is far less valued than the ability to remember and to parrot.

"Education" has become synonymous with passing exams / getting high points, and Cool is right to say that a whole industry has grown up to service and indeed promote that culture. What's more, those teachers who do honestly believe in a broader educational approach have been pressurised into falling into line, with that pressure being applied in unison by their students, their students' parents, the system and indeed the media.

I know teachers who have been barracked by parents at meetings etc. for not focusing entirely and wholly on "the exams", what is likely to come up and the points which students might gain. Anything else is irrelevant. Students similarly treat with contempt the efforts of a teacher to teach them anything whatsoever which doesn't have a high statistical probability of appearing on the exam paper at the end of the year, and most of them see as positively treasonous the suggestion that they might try to understand something rather than simply learning off essays around the topic in the hope that one will fit the bill on the day. In some ways, we're back to a rote learning model which is centuries out of date.

Bring 'em in, sit 'em down,
Fill 'em up, move 'em on,
Get the points, head 'em out! Rawhide!!

longhalloween · 02-03-2010 05:20AM

Ah the good ol English paper 2. Six poets, four male, two female. And sure doesnt a woman always come up so ya just have to learn the two women and you're sorted.

wireless101 · 02-03-2010 10:40AM

250 students got the maximum 600 the year before last

127 got it last year....maybe they are trying to cut that down

Michaelrsh · 02-03-2010 11:13AM

The Irish Leaving cert. in a way resembles the old Victorian style exam - extensive rote learning. This old archaic form of examination does in no way take into consideration an individuals intelligence. An example of this is Einstein, who failed his electrical engineering entrance exams which were based primarily on rote learning. He once said - "Spirit of learning and creative thought was lost in the rote learning"

Rote learning strays from teaching student how to think logically and analytically and only dumbens a person's mind.

I again quote Einstein - "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world"

Xluna · 02-03-2010 11:20AM

The Perfect Drug wrote: »

I know a few people who were helped by the examiner during their Irish oral exam. They'd either stop the tape and tell them what to say, or write it down.

Awesome!:D I wish I had such easy going examiners when I was a nipper.:) Jaysus, if you wanted to go to the bog they'd wait outside. Like I'd have the answer sheet stuck up me arse or something.:)

Intothesea · 02-03-2010 12:22PM

Michaelrsh wrote: »

Rote learning strays from teaching student how to think logically and analytically and only dumbens a person's mind.

In general though, how can you get to the point of being able to extemporise around the conceptual without first going through the detail-by-detail edition of learning first? In my (dusty) experience, the LC gave ample opportunity to apply a creative understanding in areas such as English literature/languages and some aspects of science -- but that was probably more on account of the particular teachers (non-lazy) than it was anything else. Certainly agree that there should be more of a concerted effort to encourage independent thinking; the current system seems to be more about the ends than the means, which is a disaster for students coming into 3rd level edumacation.

not even wrong · 02-03-2010 01:53PM

University grade inflation highlighted by study

The internal study compiled for the University Council at Trinity College also points to a parallel fall in the number of pass degrees awarded. There has been a 180 per cent decrease in the number of such degrees awarded by Trinity in the period from 2005-2008.

well, seems to be affecting journalism courses at least.

Handsome Bob · 02-03-2010 02:16PM

When I did mine in 2005, even with **** teachers we were generally well able to predict what would come up in each exam. I mean take History for example, I chose not to go with a special topics essay but I still predicted with ease five essays that would come up. You can see patterns in past papers easily, it's just a question of how motivated you are to learn the answers off my heart.

In my experience Honours Maths and Technical Drawing were the most difficult to predict. You can't really learn a solution to these subjects, you need to actually understand what you are doing because no question worded or phrased in the exact same format will come up more than once. Needless to say these were the subjects that students generally found most difficult because teachers were feeding them simple solutions, paying zero attention to whether the student actually understood what he was doing.

Michaelrsh · 02-03-2010 02:41PM

Intothesea wrote: »

In general though, how can you get to the point of being able to extemporise around the conceptual without first going through the detail-by-detail edition of learning first? In my (dusty) experience, the LC gave ample opportunity to apply a creative understanding in areas such as English literature/languages and some aspects of science -- but that was probably more on account of the particular teachers (non-lazy) than it was anything else.

Of course going through the non-intuitive aspects of a certain subject is necessary but understanding them is a different story. The Irish education system as it stands incourages the learning of details off by heart but then the student might fail in actually understanding the concept and logic behind what he/she has just learned. For example, in English, a student might learn about a particular poetic technique but then fail to be able to apply it and use it properly themselves. I suppose the same might go for languages. I found (from my experience anyway) that teachers seem to put emphasis on learning verbs off by heart but then a lesser emphasis on actually applying the verb to a sentence and taking into consideration other conditions to make the grammar correct. For example, the first 3/4 of a class might be but aside specifically for presenting new verbs and vocabulary and then the last 1/4 would be put aside for examples and application. More emphasis should be put on application in my opinion.

The same emphasis on rote learning is also used in science subjects and other subjects that require a more numerate and logical understanding. For example, in maths, less emphasis is put on how to derive theorems and more of an emphasis put on learning a formula of by heart. I have a friend who got an A2 in Higher maths and he said part of the fact that he was able to get such a score was that he indepentantly studied derivation of formulas and theorems outside the class. It gave him a more in dept understanding.

lisbon_lions · 02-03-2010 03:19PM

500% for straight A's over 15 years sounds a bit sensationalist tbh.

All it takes to get 500% over 15 years is a steady rate of growth at 10.5% (or thereabouts) per year in straight A's.

Statistics is all about embellishing the findings to get maximum shock and awe. 500% over 15 years, wow! feck off its 10.5% per year for the last 15 years!

02-03-2010 03:19PM

I didn't think the leaving cert was that predictable when I did it. You did need to understand the stuff especially in maths.

In university though sitting down and being able to do the past 4 years papers(incl the repeat papers) would often be enough not just to pass but to do well in the exam. A lot of the time study would mean printing out exam papers and start doing them, then refer to the notes as you needed rather than learn the notes and then answer questions. Some of the lecturers would tell us this even, do the past few years and ye will be grand.

Final year was a different in fairness with much less predictability in most exams and a few people got caught out with this (not me), although we had one lecturer who again just put up a mix or questions from the previous few years.

InReality · 02-03-2010 05:52PM

I'm glad the new maths paper has lots on statistics and probability , even if the standard of the questions seems way off.
Its vital people understand how statistics can be presented in misleading ways , this might even be the case with numbers quoted in this story !

sock puppet · 02-03-2010 06:02PM

InReality wrote: »

I'm glad the new maths paper has lots on statistics and probability , even if the standard of the questions seems way off.
Its vital people understand how statistics can be presented in misleading ways , this might even be the case with numbers quoted in this story !

Statistics isn't really maths though.

token56 · 02-03-2010 06:09PM

ya-ba-da-ba-doo wrote: »

You're giving out a false impression here. That "project maths" paper is only being used in 24 schools nationwide. It's not by any means the new syllabus.

I did say it was being proposed, I didn't mean to indicate that it was going to be used widespread as of now, apologies if it came across like that

partyatmygaff · 02-03-2010 06:25PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Statistics isn't really maths though.

What?

Tell that to an actuary and they would probably slap you.

:| · 02-03-2010 06:26PM

That new maths paper does look easier and the LC has been getting easier. But don't forget it's all relative, people know getting 500+ points isn't the same as it used to be. And as demand for courses goes up as well as the points people are getting, the required number of points does too, so a course that used to require 2 honours and a pass or whatever now needs 500+ points. This doesn't apply to every course though, but all colleges need to do is increase the matriculation requirements or set their own entrance exams to keep up the standard.

02-03-2010 06:47PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What?

Tell that to an actuary and they would probably slap you.

As someone currently suffering through actuarial statistics, liberal slaps all round

sock puppet · 02-03-2010 10:49PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What?

Tell that to an actuary and they would probably slap you.

Oh. I'd only heard it from my lecturer actually. And our statistics department is separate to our mathematics department so it made sense to me.

pwd · 02-03-2010 11:18PM

Personally I think it's more to do with a cultural change.
Students seem to be more studious the whole time.

Jesus Wept · 03-03-2010 09:55AM

lisbon_lions wrote: »

500% for straight A's over 15 years sounds a bit sensationalist tbh.

All it takes to get 500% over 15 years is a steady rate of growth at 10.5% (or thereabouts) per year in straight A's.

I understand compounding.

lisbon_lions wrote: »

Statistics is all about embellishing the findings to get maximum shock and awe. 500% over 15 years, wow! feck off its 10.5% per year for the last 15 years!

That's equally ridiculous to me.

Intothesea · 03-03-2010 10:19AM

Michaelrsh wrote: »

I have a friend who got an A2 in Higher maths and he said part of the fact that he was able to get such a score was that he indepentantly studied derivation of formulas and theorems outside the class. It gave him a more in dept understanding.

This is kind-of telling, isn't it? Taking the independent initiative gives better results. Could it be that modern students don't expect to have to make much independent effort, and are inadvertently supported in this by teachers who feel that they're not paid enough to deal with excessive spoon-feeding to non-proactive students -- let alone higher-quality (e.g. application, as you say) teaching? If this has been the case, maybe the recession will help both sides get their sides straight -- the public focus on this issue means a lot of people are suddenly panicked about a few things anyway

Allegations of Irish exam 'grade inflation'

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