Allegations of Irish exam 'grade inflation'

Jesus Wept

Minister for Education Batt O'Keeffe has launched two investigations into allegations of 'grade inflation' in some Leaving Certificate and university results, it has been confirmed.

The investigations come after concerns were raised with Minister O'Keeffe by some US multinational companies including Google and
Intel - that there had been a decline in the educational standards of some Irish graduates and Leaving Certificate students.
Officials are to review the number of first-class honours degrees, which have been awarded by third level institutions since 1991.
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They will also look at the number of higher grades in the Leaving Certificate between 1992 and 2009.
Previous studies have shown that the percentage of first-class honours degrees awarded by Irish universities has almost trebled in the past 15 years, while the number of straight A Leaving Certificate results is up 500%.
It is understood inquiries have already been carried out by senior Department of Education officials, and preliminary results are expected later this week.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0301/education.html

There isn't a :rolleyes: big enough for this story. Maybe this one.

I think this has been obvious to anyone that has paid any attention to leaving cert results in years gone by.

The directives clearly came from the top down.
They are investigating themselves ffs, time and money well spent.
What a bunch of ****ing chancers.

TPD

I know a few people who were helped by the examiner during their Irish oral exam. They'd either stop the tape and tell them what to say, or write it down.

MaybeLogic

It's clearly as a result of more and more people turning to atheism in Ireland.

/thread

Jesus Wept

The Perfect Drug wrote: »

I know a few people who were helped by the examiner during their Irish oral exam. They'd either stop the tape and tell them what to say, or write it down.

teehee.

Cool Mo D

Higher grades doesn't mean that the tests are necessarily easier though - it could be that they are too predictable, and students and teachers are getting good at teaching to the test, and not bothering with stuff that they can ignore.

Students no are getting notes with pre-written paragraphs of informal letters for your French exam, pre-written essays on some topical subject for your Irish exam, figuring out which poetry is likely to come up in the English, and rote learning common problems in maths.

Over the last 20 years, a whole industry of predicting and short-cut learning of what will come up in the leaving cert has sprung up, and with it, grades. It is entirely possible that the exams aren't dumbed down at all, but the rigid format of the leaving cert is lending itself to gaming and second guessing the system.

Jesus Wept

I thought it was a case that were being marked easier.
That's what I've always heard, right or wrong.

gurramok

So the education system's reputation is ruined. Just like a 3rd world country!

The_Minister

If you look at Maths, the papers have been becoming easier and easier over the years.

Max Power1

The_Minister wrote: »

If you look at Maths, the papers have been becoming easier and easier over the years.

have you got a percentage on that

Zillah

Well we are talking about a change over fifteen years here. A combination of greater wealth, widespread internet access and a growing culture of competition could explain a large increase.

500% does sound a little extreme though.

upandcumming

Whats done is this... If 100 students did a maths paper. 80 got an A,
10 got a B, 5 got a C and 5 got a D.
They will go back over the paper and mark it harder so it'd leave a smaller percentage with an A. I looked over my french paper, and i had gotten a b but it was remarked down to a c.

It could be done at the opposite end of the scale, where if say 80 people failed...

hooradiation

upandcumming wrote: »

Whats done is this... If 100 students did a maths paper. 80 got an A,
10 got a B, 5 got a C and 5 got a D.
They will go back over the paper and mark it harder so it'd leave a smaller percentage with an A. I looked over my french paper, and i had gotten a b but it was remarked down to a c.

It could be done at the opposite end of the scale, where if say 80 people failed...

so... it's marked on a curve then?

HOLY SHITTING JESUS! WHAT A SCOOP!

upandcumming

hooradiation wrote: »

so... it's marked on a curve then?

HOLY SHITTING JESUS! WHAT A SCOOP!

Its not a scoop. Not everyone is blessed with you apparent knowledge.

syklops

Its bad enough our banking reputation is in the jacks. Now our education reputation is gone as well.

I wonder what other frauds happened during the celtic tiger.

gurramok

Zillah wrote: »

Well we are talking about a change over fifteen years here. A combination of greater wealth, widespread internet access and a growing culture of competition could explain a large increase.

500% does sound a little extreme though.

Has the numbers sitting the LC gone up 500%?

Something is rotten in the state of Ireland:p

pwd

Was just settling down to mark some assignments. Better look up some grade curve statistics before I do.

punto gt turbo3

cheating has gotten easier. the stories i have heard would make ya think.

El Siglo

This is going to make the people who actually did their LC and college exams honestly look bad. This is all we need now, the one thing we were supposed to be good at and now that's fucked.

twinytwo

this is a crock of **** for the most part.. when i did my leaving there were 5 or 6 people in my year that got 600 points 6A's 7A's etc but they worked for it. Barely went outside for a year. Everytime you saw them they had their face in a book.

syklops

twinytwo wrote: »

this is a crock of **** for the most part.. when i did my leaving there were 5 or 6 people in my year that got 600 points 6A's 7A's etc but they worked for it. Barely went outside for a year. Everytime you saw them they had their face in a book.

5 or 6 people? When I did my leaving there was only one person in all of Ireland who got 600 points.

Looks like the 500% figure is accurate after all.

Kurtosis

Max Power1 wrote: »

have you got a percentage on that

Nah, percentages are hard.

Sergeant

I employed a graduate last September. The chap had gotten a 2.1 from a top university. It was an engineering position. Now I don't expect miracles from a graduate, where a course is heavily focused on theory, rather than "real world" experience. I do expect enthusiasm, dedication and an eagerness to learn on the job.
This goon hadn't got a single transferable skill. Appalling grammar and punctuation skills. Simple mathematical concepts were beyond his grasp. The only thing he came armed with was an enormous sense of entitlement.
How he had gotten through a leaving cert and a degree course continues to baffle me. Learning by rote seems to be the order of the day. The only conclusion I can reach, is that the courses are being “dumbed” down to produce the required graduates for a “knowledge” economy.

El Siglo

Sergeant wrote: »

I employed a graduate last September. The chap had gotten a 2.1 from a top university. It was an engineering position. Now I don't expect miracles from a graduate, where a course is heavily focused on theory, rather than "real world" experience. I do expect enthusiasm, dedication and an eagerness to learn on the job.
This goon hadn't got a single transferable skill. Appalling grammar and punctuation skills. Simple mathematical concepts were beyond his grasp. The only thing he came armed with was an enormous sense of entitlement.
How he had gotten through a leaving cert and a degree course continues to baffle me. Learning by rote seems to be the order of the day. The only conclusion I can reach, is that the courses are being “dumbed” down to produce the required graduates for a “knowledge” economy.

fyp:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJNL1BmukU

experiMental

Sergeant wrote: »

I employed a graduate last September. The chap had gotten a 2.1 from a top university. It was an engineering position. Now I don't expect miracles from a graduate, where a course is heavily focused on theory, rather than "real world" experience. I do expect enthusiasm, dedication and an eagerness to learn on the job.
This goon hadn't got a single transferable skill. Appalling grammar and punctuation skills. Simple mathematical concepts were beyond his grasp. The only thing he came armed with was an enormous sense of entitlement.
How he had gotten through a leaving cert and a degree course continues to baffle me. Learning by rote seems to be the order of the day. The only conclusion I can reach, is that the courses are being “dumbed” down to produce the required graduates for a “knowledge” economy.

Let's rewind a bit. An engineering degree and poor grasp of maths concepts. How did he get a 2.1 from a top university?

Sergeant

experiMental wrote: »

Let's rewind a bit. An engineering degree and poor grasp of maths concepts. How did he get a 2.1 from a top university?

That is what I try to get to grasp with in the last line of my original post.

Michaelrsh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7cop4shRXY

This video just came to mind. I don't know why ...

hooradiation

experiMental wrote: »

Let's rewind a bit. An engineering degree and poor grasp of maths concepts. How did he get a 2.1 from a top university?

Because someone is lying here.

I'm just not sure who.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Dunno about 'grade inflation', suggests that papers are being marked easier. I couldn't see anyone being asked to do this, it would have been out a long time ago

And the LC is still pretty tough as there is all that competition for college places.

But the papers themselves may be easier to avoid failures, I'm in no position to tell though

What I can say though is that college is a piece of pi$$ which probably shouldn't be the case. I've got two degrees, bot of them involved a years partying and two weeks mad study before the exams. Which was pretty much everyones tactic bar the library gnomes.

Degree churning factories, we kinda thought we were challenged at the time but that was before 'the real world'. All college courses should involve practical work experience imo.

Edit : 500th post!! What do I get?

ArseBurger

syklops wrote: »

Its bad enough our banking reputation is in the jacks. Now our education reputation is gone as well.

I wonder what other frauds happened during the celtic tiger.

The Irish education system hasn't had a decent international reputation since they changed the grades in the leaving certificate to A1, A2 and diluted their value in the early nineties.

And approximately three years after this CAO points for courses went into the toilet.

cherryghost

Ethan Tinkling Width wrote: »

Edit : 500th post!! What do I get?

You've been given the go-ahead to lead the reformation of the Education system

El Siglo

It's a mixture between lower CAO points, higher numbers going to college and satisfying the bell curve. Lower points, people that shouldn't do certain courses get into them, increase in college numbers, thus, higher numbers of lower quality students on these college courses means that examinations need to be adjusted to average out the grades. I think what people are missing is that even though there has been an increase in grades etc... this should probably take into account the higher numbers going to college and not in isolation. However, I do believe that the LC is highly inflated and no matter what you do in college, assessments, assignments, exams etc... will always weed out the weak, people might get through college but that doesn't mean that they'll get a great degree out of it.

Michaelrsh

experiMental wrote: »

Let's rewind a bit. An engineering degree and poor grasp of maths concepts. How did he get a 2.1 from a top university?

Shockingly in some maths exams at college you can actually learn things through rote learning. For example in an exam derivation of a formula (which is basically regurgitation) can have more marks awarded to it but this is not always the case. I think focus should be taken off rote learning completely in school and in college. An american economics lecturer told us today that from his experience Irish students had greater ability to learn something off by heart rather than understand the material in comparison to students he had come across when lecturing in America.

InkSlinger67

Obvious 3rd level grade inflation is obvious

....and has been since early naughties, at least

Buford T Justice

I blame the government!

Pittens

so... it's marked on a curve then?

I can see why English might be marked on a curve, but it makes little sense for maths.

5 or 6 people? When I did my leaving there was only one person in all of Ireland who got 600 points.

True. In fact I dont think I knew anybody who got an A in English, for instance. ( I graduated in the early nineties) Why? Because the marking on the Essay questions, as far as we could see from the mocks ( examined externally) was never going to give you 100%. Orwell wouldnt have gotten 100% for a political essay. The highest was 70% ruining everybody's chance of an A unless it was then remarked on a curve ( and how could that happen countrywide?).

Mathematics was easier to get an A because it wasn't subjective - but only 10% of my school did honours, so 10% of them got an A, or 1 % of the total. Which was about the case countrywide.

ArseBurger

Pittens wrote: »

Mathematics was easier to get an A because it wasn't subjective - but only 10% of my school did honours, so 10% of them got an A, or 1 % of the total. Which was about the case countrywide.

You what now? I think someone needs to consult an honours Mathematics student.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Max Power1 wrote: »

have you got a percentage on that

He's not lying. I did leaving cert maths in 2003. We had past papers going back 10 years, the ones 93/94/95 were far tougher than 00/01/02 etc

Misty Chaos

I did my LC in 2005 and the highest I got in any exam was a C1 in an Honours Level subject.

In college, they have a thing called ' pass by compensation ' , its the only reason I lasted as long as I did when I was doing Graphic Design ( something I should have left a lot sooner than I did ) , now that was a course that weeded out the weak quite dramatically.

Even then, I was told by one cynical lecturer more than once, that grade inflation was common and because he refused to do it, he got shafted by the college management. He wasn't afraid to fail people and getting even 45% off him was considered a miracle!

But seriously, this development doesn't surprise me at all, makes you wonder what else was inflated during the boom.

cherryghost

wheres the current LC students to defend this nonsense?

Jako8

cherryghost wrote: »

wheres the current LC students to defend this nonsense?

Defend?

I hope they mark mine up. :pac:

brummytom

Sergeant wrote: »

Learning by rote seems to be the order of the day.

This, +Billion.

It's not that exams are getting easier, it's not that the marking's more generous. It's that we are being taught only the things we need to know for the exam. The level of exam practice is ridiculous - My brother is preparing for his Year 6 SATs; he's having to do 3 practice papers a day, since January and until mid-July. It's ridiculous; he's getting full marks and still being made to constantly 'practice'.


We're not taught to think; we're taught to do exams. The vast majority of schools don't care how we get on in life; so long as we get grades that reflect well on the school.

friendface

twinytwo wrote: »

this is a crock of **** for the most part.. when i did my leaving there were 5 or 6 people in my year that got 600 points 6A's 7A's etc but they worked for it. Barely went outside for a year. Everytime you saw them they had their face in a book.

Now it's just facebook...




Feel bad for those taking the Leaving this year though as this may be seen as a reason to apply marking schemes more rigidly and allow less leniency.

cherryghost

Jako8 wrote: »

Defend?

I hope they mark mine up. :pac:

i was being sarcastic. DAMN INTERNET!

tech77

Max Power1 wrote: »

have you got a percentage on that

That's abSURD.
Stop going off on a tangent.
We're trying to get to the ROOT of the problem here.

Piste

I quickly learned in college that rote learning begins and ends in seocndary school. I went from 600 points to praying I'd pass my exams. It means this semester I really have to shift how I study and focus on logic and reason rather than learning off facts (there's an added bonus that with reason you can logic out some of the facts so there's no learning off needed!). It's a pity that it's not a skill I'd picked up before college, but I guess I have to learn it some time.

I was pretty surprised I got 600 points to be honest. I think the examiners must have been pretty generous. Had I sat the LC 10 or 20 years ago I might have gotten in the mid to high 500s, but nowhere near 600 points.

tech77

ArseBurger wrote: »

You what now? I think someone needs to consult an honours Mathematics student.

10% did honours
10% of those got A's.
10% of 10% is 1%.
I'll leave the other poster make the "comprehension" joke.
Edit: Of course his post was also confusing with a "so" instead of an "and" but still.
Obviously a literal interpretation of the misplaced "so" is nonsensical- all honours students don't get A's.
Leaving only the above possible inference.

token56

Max Power1 wrote: »

have you got a percentage on that

I'm only going to comment on second level education for the moment, but the maths in leaving cert has certainly become easier. I only did my LC in 04/05 (which wasn't greatly difficult in itself compared to other years in my opinion), but if you even look at the new maths course that is being proposed (dubbed "Project Maths") it really is a joke. Granted only paper 2 for the revised syllabus is available, but even that in itself is enough to see that the exam has been greatly simplified despite its new structure.

If anyone would like to take a look at a sample maths paper from the revised syllabus and compare themselves you can find one here:

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/PM_ATAL_sample_Jan_2010.pdf

here is an example of a paper from just about a decade ago

http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/1999/LC003ALP200EV.PDF

Edit: I actually want to give credit to one of the questions, which is more challenging and would require a better understanding rather than just learning off the necessary material. However I still believe it is of an easier standard despite the marking scheme. Also upon further investigation, there has also apparently been major sections completely dropped, such as matrices and vectors, which in my opinion is a complete disaster for anyone who wants to do engineering.

I know a few other courses have changed since I did the LC also, such as geography, but I'm not sure if they were changed for the better or for the worse.

KevR

Sergeant wrote: »

I employed a graduate last September. The chap had gotten a 2.1 from a top university. It was an engineering position. Now I don't expect miracles from a graduate, where a course is heavily focused on theory, rather than "real world" experience. I do expect enthusiasm, dedication and an eagerness to learn on the job.
This goon hadn't got a single transferable skill. Appalling grammar and punctuation skills. Simple mathematical concepts were beyond his grasp. The only thing he came armed with was an enormous sense of entitlement.
How he had gotten through a leaving cert and a degree course continues to baffle me. Learning by rote seems to be the order of the day. The only conclusion I can reach, is that the courses are being “dumbed” down to produce the required graduates for a “knowledge” economy.

It's very easy for someone to be "force fed" their leaving cert with lots of grinds and stuff. University isn't quite as bad but it is shocking how some people are getting 3rd level degrees without putting in much effort or having any real clue. Then when they go out into the workforce, where they won't be "force fed", they really struggle to offer anything worthwhile to their employer.

I'm in my final year at the moment. I had to do a 5 month work placement last year. If I didn't pass* my work placement, I couldn't have progressed into final year. As far as I'm aware, not many courses require students to do a work placement. It's a shame because I think it would definitely improve the quality of graduates if more students had to do successful work placements.

*By pass I mean my manager at the company I worked for and a person from the university placement office had to be happy with my work or else no final year and no degree.

KerranJast

I got an A1 in Honours Tech Drawing (2001) and I knew I'd only finished 75% of the questions. I checked the script after for the laugh and sure enough I got full marks for stuff that was only 60% drawn. I guess they were giving marks because I did know what I was doing, just ran out of time.

Misty Chaos

token56 wrote: »

If anyone would like to take a look at a sample maths paper from the revised syllabus and compare themselves you can find one here:

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/PM_ATAL_sample_Jan_2010.pdf

here is an example of a paper from just about a decade ago

http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/1999/LC003ALP200EV.PDF

:eek::eek::eek:

What kind of Maths paper is THAT!? That looks more like a pass level JUNIOR CERT Maths paper than a Higher Level Leaving Cert Maths Paper!

Granted, I hated Maths in Secondary school and thought the LC pass maths course was hard ( then again, having a sh!t teacher doesn't help either ) but this sort of dumbing down is ridiculous, what most the pass paper look like!?

*goes to look*

Man, I'm surprised they didn't just give the equations out on the paper itself

token56

Misty Choas wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek:

What kind of Maths paper is THAT!? That looks more like a pass level JUNIOR CERT Maths paper than a Higher Level Leaving Cert Maths Paper!

Granted, I hated Maths in Secondary school and thought the LC pass maths course was hard ( then again, having a sh!t teacher doesn't help either ) but this sort of dumbing down is ridiculous, what most the pass paper look like!?

*goes to look*

Man, I'm surprised they didn't just give the equations out on the paper itself

Dont get me started on the ordinary level papers. There is not actually a huge difference between ordinary and foundation in the new proposed examinations. Its quite pathetic.