Allegations of Irish exam 'grade inflation'

Michaelrsh · 01-03-2010 02:18PM

experiMental wrote: »

Let's rewind a bit. An engineering degree and poor grasp of maths concepts. How did he get a 2.1 from a top university?

Shockingly in some maths exams at college you can actually learn things through rote learning. For example in an exam derivation of a formula (which is basically regurgitation) can have more marks awarded to it but this is not always the case. I think focus should be taken off rote learning completely in school and in college. An american economics lecturer told us today that from his experience Irish students had greater ability to learn something off by heart rather than understand the material in comparison to students he had come across when lecturing in America.

InkSlinger67 · 01-03-2010 02:21PM

Obvious 3rd level grade inflation is obvious

....and has been since early naughties, at least

Buford T Justice · 01-03-2010 02:52PM

I blame the government!

Pittens · 01-03-2010 04:16PM

so... it's marked on a curve then?

I can see why English might be marked on a curve, but it makes little sense for maths.

5 or 6 people? When I did my leaving there was only one person in all of Ireland who got 600 points.

True. In fact I dont think I knew anybody who got an A in English, for instance. ( I graduated in the early nineties) Why? Because the marking on the Essay questions, as far as we could see from the mocks ( examined externally) was never going to give you 100%. Orwell wouldnt have gotten 100% for a political essay. The highest was 70% ruining everybody's chance of an A unless it was then remarked on a curve ( and how could that happen countrywide?).

Mathematics was easier to get an A because it wasn't subjective - but only 10% of my school did honours, so 10% of them got an A, or 1 % of the total. Which was about the case countrywide.

ArseBurger · 01-03-2010 04:19PM

Pittens wrote: »

Mathematics was easier to get an A because it wasn't subjective - but only 10% of my school did honours, so 10% of them got an A, or 1 % of the total. Which was about the case countrywide.

You what now? I think someone needs to consult an honours Mathematics student.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 01-03-2010 05:08PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

have you got a percentage on that

He's not lying. I did leaving cert maths in 2003. We had past papers going back 10 years, the ones 93/94/95 were far tougher than 00/01/02 etc

Misty Chaos · 01-03-2010 05:33PM

I did my LC in 2005 and the highest I got in any exam was a C1 in an Honours Level subject.

In college, they have a thing called ' pass by compensation ' , its the only reason I lasted as long as I did when I was doing Graphic Design ( something I should have left a lot sooner than I did ) , now that was a course that weeded out the weak quite dramatically.

Even then, I was told by one cynical lecturer more than once, that grade inflation was common and because he refused to do it, he got shafted by the college management. He wasn't afraid to fail people and getting even 45% off him was considered a miracle!

But seriously, this development doesn't surprise me at all, makes you wonder what else was inflated during the boom.

cherryghost · 01-03-2010 05:54PM

wheres the current LC students to defend this nonsense?

Jako8 · 01-03-2010 06:01PM

cherryghost wrote: »

wheres the current LC students to defend this nonsense?

Defend?

I hope they mark mine up. :pac:

brummytom · 01-03-2010 06:06PM

Sergeant wrote: »

Learning by rote seems to be the order of the day.

This, +Billion.

It's not that exams are getting easier, it's not that the marking's more generous. It's that we are being taught only the things we need to know for the exam. The level of exam practice is ridiculous - My brother is preparing for his Year 6 SATs; he's having to do 3 practice papers a day, since January and until mid-July. It's ridiculous; he's getting full marks and still being made to constantly 'practice'.

We're not taught to think; we're taught to do exams. The vast majority of schools don't care how we get on in life; so long as we get grades that reflect well on the school.

friendface · 01-03-2010 06:11PM

twinytwo wrote: »

this is a crock of **** for the most part.. when i did my leaving there were 5 or 6 people in my year that got 600 points 6A's 7A's etc but they worked for it. Barely went outside for a year. Everytime you saw them they had their face in a book.

Now it's just facebook...

Feel bad for those taking the Leaving this year though as this may be seen as a reason to apply marking schemes more rigidly and allow less leniency.

cherryghost · 01-03-2010 06:19PM

Jako8 wrote: »

Defend?

I hope they mark mine up. :pac:

i was being sarcastic. DAMN INTERNET!

tech77 · 01-03-2010 06:21PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

have you got a percentage on that

That's abSURD.
Stop going off on a tangent.
We're trying to get to the ROOT of the problem here.

Piste · 01-03-2010 06:29PM

I quickly learned in college that rote learning begins and ends in seocndary school. I went from 600 points to praying I'd pass my exams. It means this semester I really have to shift how I study and focus on logic and reason rather than learning off facts (there's an added bonus that with reason you can logic out some of the facts so there's no learning off needed!). It's a pity that it's not a skill I'd picked up before college, but I guess I have to learn it some time.

I was pretty surprised I got 600 points to be honest. I think the examiners must have been pretty generous. Had I sat the LC 10 or 20 years ago I might have gotten in the mid to high 500s, but nowhere near 600 points.

tech77 · 01-03-2010 06:33PM

ArseBurger wrote: »

You what now? I think someone needs to consult an honours Mathematics student.

10% did honours
10% of those got A's.
10% of 10% is 1%.
I'll leave the other poster make the "comprehension" joke.
Edit: Of course his post was also confusing with a "so" instead of an "and" but still.
Obviously a literal interpretation of the misplaced "so" is nonsensical- all honours students don't get A's.
Leaving only the above possible inference.

token56 · 01-03-2010 06:43PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

have you got a percentage on that

I'm only going to comment on second level education for the moment, but the maths in leaving cert has certainly become easier. I only did my LC in 04/05 (which wasn't greatly difficult in itself compared to other years in my opinion), but if you even look at the new maths course that is being proposed (dubbed "Project Maths") it really is a joke. Granted only paper 2 for the revised syllabus is available, but even that in itself is enough to see that the exam has been greatly simplified despite its new structure.

If anyone would like to take a look at a sample maths paper from the revised syllabus and compare themselves you can find one here:

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/PM_ATAL_sample_Jan_2010.pdf

here is an example of a paper from just about a decade ago

http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/1999/LC003ALP200EV.PDF

Edit: I actually want to give credit to one of the questions, which is more challenging and would require a better understanding rather than just learning off the necessary material. However I still believe it is of an easier standard despite the marking scheme. Also upon further investigation, there has also apparently been major sections completely dropped, such as matrices and vectors, which in my opinion is a complete disaster for anyone who wants to do engineering.

I know a few other courses have changed since I did the LC also, such as geography, but I'm not sure if they were changed for the better or for the worse.

KevR · 01-03-2010 06:57PM

Sergeant wrote: »

I employed a graduate last September. The chap had gotten a 2.1 from a top university. It was an engineering position. Now I don't expect miracles from a graduate, where a course is heavily focused on theory, rather than "real world" experience. I do expect enthusiasm, dedication and an eagerness to learn on the job.
This goon hadn't got a single transferable skill. Appalling grammar and punctuation skills. Simple mathematical concepts were beyond his grasp. The only thing he came armed with was an enormous sense of entitlement.
How he had gotten through a leaving cert and a degree course continues to baffle me. Learning by rote seems to be the order of the day. The only conclusion I can reach, is that the courses are being “dumbed” down to produce the required graduates for a “knowledge” economy.

It's very easy for someone to be "force fed" their leaving cert with lots of grinds and stuff. University isn't quite as bad but it is shocking how some people are getting 3rd level degrees without putting in much effort or having any real clue. Then when they go out into the workforce, where they won't be "force fed", they really struggle to offer anything worthwhile to their employer.

I'm in my final year at the moment. I had to do a 5 month work placement last year. If I didn't pass* my work placement, I couldn't have progressed into final year. As far as I'm aware, not many courses require students to do a work placement. It's a shame because I think it would definitely improve the quality of graduates if more students had to do successful work placements.

*By pass I mean my manager at the company I worked for and a person from the university placement office had to be happy with my work or else no final year and no degree.

KerranJast · 01-03-2010 07:03PM

I got an A1 in Honours Tech Drawing (2001) and I knew I'd only finished 75% of the questions. I checked the script after for the laugh and sure enough I got full marks for stuff that was only 60% drawn. I guess they were giving marks because I did know what I was doing, just ran out of time.

Misty Chaos · 01-03-2010 07:04PM

token56 wrote: »

If anyone would like to take a look at a sample maths paper from the revised syllabus and compare themselves you can find one here:

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/PM_ATAL_sample_Jan_2010.pdf

here is an example of a paper from just about a decade ago

http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/1999/LC003ALP200EV.PDF

:eek::eek::eek:

What kind of Maths paper is THAT!? That looks more like a pass level JUNIOR CERT Maths paper than a Higher Level Leaving Cert Maths Paper!

Granted, I hated Maths in Secondary school and thought the LC pass maths course was hard ( then again, having a sh!t teacher doesn't help either ) but this sort of dumbing down is ridiculous, what most the pass paper look like!?

*goes to look*

Man, I'm surprised they didn't just give the equations out on the paper itself

token56 · 01-03-2010 07:10PM

Misty Choas wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek:

What kind of Maths paper is THAT!? That looks more like a pass level JUNIOR CERT Maths paper than a Higher Level Leaving Cert Maths Paper!

Granted, I hated Maths in Secondary school and thought the LC pass maths course was hard ( then again, having a sh!t teacher doesn't help either ) but this sort of dumbing down is ridiculous, what most the pass paper look like!?

*goes to look*

Man, I'm surprised they didn't just give the equations out on the paper itself

Dont get me started on the ordinary level papers. There is not actually a huge difference between ordinary and foundation in the new proposed examinations. Its quite pathetic.

Sod'o swords · 01-03-2010 07:21PM

If maths is meant to be getting easier, why is it the most failed subject?

I think ~5000 people failed it last time i heard, pass maths that is, which really is special, you can pass on the Question A's alone, which are around the level of 'Did you dress yourself this morning?'.

As for higher pass rate, it could be with more lenient Examiners,or possibly the fact nearly ever teacher tends not to teach the subject, but teach you to pass the exam. Also could be the fact that the amount of people staying in school to sit the leaving has risen, along with the general rise in the population. Unless It's a "500%" increase in a A:student Ratio, then, that's not the case.

token56 · 01-03-2010 07:42PM

Sod'o swords wrote: »

If maths is meant to be getting easier, why is it the most failed subject?

I think ~5000 people failed it last time i heard, pass maths that is, which really is special, you can pass on the Question A's alone, which are around the level of 'Did you dress yourself this morning?'.

First of all, in the current exam, most questions A's are normally worth 10 out of a total of 50 marks per question afaik, so its not really fair to say you could pass the exam by just answering them alone.

Second, rather than write a huge easy, its important to remember there is a lot more to maths or any other subject than just an exam. In particular things such as students attitudes, relevance to practical scenarios, the material itself and how it is taught. All important contributing issues which are related to one and other. Its not as simply as saying, if exams are easier then students should be doing better.

Michaelrsh · 01-03-2010 08:04PM

Misty Choas wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek:

What kind of Maths paper is THAT!? That looks more like a pass level JUNIOR CERT Maths paper than a Higher Level Leaving Cert Maths Paper!

Granted, I hated Maths in Secondary school and thought the LC pass maths course was hard ( then again, having a sh!t teacher doesn't help either ) but this sort of dumbing down is ridiculous, what most the pass paper look like!?

*goes to look*

Man, I'm surprised they didn't just give the equations out on the paper itself

OMG!!!:eek: I saw these new maths papers too!! I only did my Leaving cert in 2009 and seeing these makes me wish I was born a year later. I can't believe this is higher level maths, it's a disgrace. How do they're expect people to cope in maths related courses in college such as engineering, maths, physics, etc.. with this base knowledge. They going to have to increase the matriculation requirement. For example, the requirement for engineering should be at least a B3 (up from a C3) with this sort of 'higher' level math exam papers.

I know the government wants people to do better in maths from now on, but this is a sly and misleading way of doing it. They should increase the concentration on maths in secondary school and improve the teaching quality and standards.

Code name "PROJECT MATHS" is an utter shame!!!

Further proof that the present government is for the door.

PS: If I went into an exam hall right at this moment in time I could well get an A1 in that sort of 'maths'.

tech77 · 01-03-2010 08:18PM

KerranJast wrote: »

I got an A1 in Honours Tech Drawing (2001) and I knew I'd only finished 75% of the questions.

I got the same result and i knew i got 95-100% of it correct (back in the nineties).
Definitely something in this grade inflation thing alright.

I loved that subject...

OwenM · 01-03-2010 08:18PM

I looked at that paper and it is a disgrace, looks like Junior cert pass level to me, god only knows whats on that paper......

ongarite · 01-03-2010 08:18PM

Sod'o swords wrote: »

If maths is meant to be getting easier, why is it the most failed subject?

I think ~5000 people failed it last time i heard, pass maths that is, which really is special, you can pass on the Question A's alone, which are around the level of 'Did you dress yourself this morning?'.

As for higher pass rate, it could be with more lenient Examiners,or possibly the fact nearly ever teacher tends not to teach the subject, but teach you to pass the exam. Also could be the fact that the amount of people staying in school to sit the leaving has risen, along with the general rise in the population. Unless It's a "500%" increase in a A:student Ratio, then, that's not the case.

Because maths relies on the pupil having an understanding of the basic principles and applying logic to solve the problem.
The way the Leaving Cert is taught now, is to learn off past papers and possible questions and literally vomit back what your teacher has told you to remember back onto the paper.
It requires literally no understanding of the paper, only a good memory.

Sure, there is a whole industry of repeat LC grind school, who help kids remember the answers to past questions and possible answers so they can get better points.

Pittens · 01-03-2010 08:33PM

Edit: Of course his post was also confusing with a "so" instead of an "and" but still.

i was using a colloquial Irish so, short for "so lets say"..

that's my excuse anyway. Thanks for explaining my bad writing but good maths.

Pittens · 01-03-2010 08:42PM

The way the Leaving Cert is taught now, is to learn off past papers and possible questions and literally vomit back what your teacher has told you to remember back onto the paper.

Is that because the questions repeat? I did a engineering course in a tough university where, as it happens, some lecturers used to repeat their questions. Not that a different paper was ever the same exactly, but there was a pool of 20-30 questions.

Certain people just learned them off. Since the results was graded on the curve, getting a question wrong was a D. so we all had to try and do it. Absurd.

That was not the way the LC was taught, though. But I didnt do grinds.

plein de force · 01-03-2010 08:54PM

the new project maths is ridiculous
i think it's being taught from next year on for leaving cert?

if i'd have stayed in primary one year longer i'd be able to avail of it and the piss easy points you'd get. it's easier than junior cert ordinary level by the looks of that sample paper

partyatmygaff · 01-03-2010 08:58PM

The new project maths course is easier but from what i've heard it will be marked much differently than how it's marked now. It will be stage marked. As in if you do x amount of work you get 5 marks, y amount of work you get 10 marks, z amount of work 20 marks. So if you make a mistake in the first part of a question you lose a lot of marks.

That and the fact it's a completely new paper that's never been used before I'm glad I amn't in one of the test schools this year doing project maths.

Allegations of Irish exam 'grade inflation'

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