The real Fianna Fáil issue

Red_Marauder · 26-02-2010 06:45PM

Laminations wrote: »

So you want us all to be government advisors? Here is my constructive advice
'Hey government, see all that stuff you are doing, yeah? Try not to f*** it up like most of the stuff you do. And watch out for the usual waste

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Who cares? That's not even political debate, it's just symbolic of the kind of verbal diarrhoea you see directed towards the Government in political rants both on this forum and politics.ie.
All I am saying is that this kind of criticism doesn't actually have any impact. It's just a non-specific, generic rant that could be randomly inserted into almost any thread about politics on this forum. You don't seem to see a problem with not engaging in constructive criticism, fair enough. Personally, I think there is a problem there.

I am not a government policy advisor, I am a voter. You say I'm to 'inform' the government, they are not so far listening to my information - they are sh!t, and I want a general election.

Not listening to your information? but what information exchange have you engaged with? Even on boards you just seem to oppose everything the Govt. come out with. Are you actually out there doing anything productive about that?

Oh yeah, just a sec, let me get my pen out, I shall have my thesis on economic recovery prepared shortly.

Well as flippantly as I think that was intended, I would actually question the credibility of an individual who disagrees with the Government on an issue and does not have a logically worked out alternative in mind.

Laminations · 26-02-2010 06:57PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

All I am saying is that this kind of criticism doesn't actually have any impact. It's just a non-specific, generic rant that could be randomly inserted into almost any thread about politics on this forum.

Fair enough. I'll continue highlighting factual instances of unfairness and mismanagement and you can continue with your simile-style proverbs.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I was sitting there drinking a protein shake and started thinking how much Fine Gael are like a protein shake. They keep you strong, you feel better after taking them, and it's better for you in the long run but my God they are boring.

But Fianna Fáil are a Cognac. You associate them with a day at the races, gambling, parties, drink, sex, moral corruption and fun. You might be broke at the end of it all, you might have the hangover from Hell, but often you don't really care.

Fine Gael are what we need. But, unfortunately, it's Fianna Fáil that we seem to want.

I'm so much better informed now that I know what drinks to compare the parties to.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Even on boards you just seem to oppose everything the Govt. come out with. Are you actually out there doing anything productive about that?

That might be because I do oppose everything the government has come out with, bar the few points I mentioned earlier. And I think highlighting waste and mismanagement and trying (in vain) to convince people we have an alternative to vote for is productive.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Well as flippantly as I think that was intended, I would actually question the credibility of an individual who disagrees with the Government on an issue and does not have a logically worked out alternative in mind.

An alternative to a suggested policy can be as simple as 'dont implement that policy'. I'm not here to set the country right, if you wanna give it a go fire ahead, I'll listen to your ideas once they are not a regurgitation of FG policy. I am aware of FG policy, I will vote for FG policy

Red_Marauder · 26-02-2010 07:14PM

Laminations wrote: »

An alternative to a suggested policy can be as simple as 'dont implement that policy'

No it isn't. That is nothing more than an opening line.

Setting out a position and then not coming up with any alternative is just like being a map-reader in the passenger seat who simply shouts No all the time.

The public are supposed to be giving directions. There are posters here from whom any level of direction is totally missing and I find it strange that some people don't see that as a problem. What's the point in objecting of you have no alternative view?

I'm not here to set the country right, if you wanna give it a go fire ahead, I'll listen to your ideas once they are not a regurgitation of FG policy. I am aware of FG policy, I will vote for FG policy

So again, what do you mean in practice when you say "your information" is not being listened to?

Liam Byrne · 26-02-2010 07:42PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Who cares? That's not even political debate, it's just symbolic of the kind of verbal diarrhoea you see directed towards the Government in political rants both on this forum and politics.ie.

It might not be "political debate", but the fact is that it's correct.

And rather than shooting the messengers, I'd prefer if people asked "why is it correct ?", or "why do we vote for the people who make it true ?"

Red_Marauder wrote: »

All I am saying is that this kind of criticism doesn't actually have any impact. It's just a non-specific, generic rant that could be randomly inserted into almost any thread about politics on this forum.

I take your point that it's tiresome to continuously repeat the incompetence and corruption, and that is precisely why people end up resorting to "y'know - the usual".

But again, the fact of the matter is that these types of things should be complained about ONCE, and the Government should deal with them, rather than sneeringly dismissing them as political footballs and the like.

The fact is that any time anything is raised, FF just get defensive and show zero accountability. THAT is what needs to change, and when it does then we won't have to repeat ourselves and will have no basis for saying "more of the usual".

In other threads, you seem to want to lay the blame at people's feet; and whatever about the fact that there was some validity in other threads, the blame here is with the Government and the Opposition.

We've said what we won't tolerate, and we're repeatedly ignored.

And no - it's not our job to come up with solutions. That's what we pay the Dáil - both FF and FG - for. It's up to THEM to sort it out.....they're meant to represent us, at least on a national level without corruption.

The day that FF kick someone out for corruption, or hold them accountable for waste and incompetence, I'll probably faint.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

You don't seem to see a problem with not engaging in constructive criticism, fair enough. Personally, I think there is a problem there.

Yes, when you see a government f**k up as badly as FF have, and ignore and absolve themselves of their failings, then there's feck all "constructive" to
say, other than "get the hell out".

Because the constructive criticism process requires the receiver to acknowledge that some criticism is due, and that they need to take it on board; witnessing O'Dea claim that he was "hounded" and a "victim", and watching Cowen & Co vote confidence and back him up, shows just how sickening this shower are - there is no redemption.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Well as flippantly as I think that was intended, I would actually question the credibility of an individual who disagrees with the Government on an issue and does not have a logically worked out alternative in mind.

That would be fine, but when the "alternative" required is basic competence, accountability and a lack of corruption, that is both "logical" and an "alternative".

As for NAMA, alternatives have been proposed and dissed.

And considering that most people here are in their jobs and don't get paid thousands every day to do precisely that job (not to mention the advisers, quangos and other relatives sorry, staff) it's a bit rich to suggest that we come up with alternatives.

Bottom line is that we know what sickens us and we know what's fair.

And admittedly there are grey areas on some issues; but there should be no grey area on standards.

patmar · 27-02-2010 11:18PM

" There's a anti FF bandwagon, jump on it !! "

I was one of those who jumped on that bandwagon even before the crash mainly because of house prices

Back in November I discovered sites like Facebook and sites like this with lots of politics. Have realised 99% of the these sites content are anti FF and added to the media its clear FF are getting a hammering. Had no problem with that until it dawned on me that though FF are getting a well deserved hammering what the other side have to offer is a total blank. This I said to myself is a crazy situation and I even asked a few questions on other sites about this problem. I got vicious abuse in return and these people jumped to the conclusion I was FF !!
As someone who is 64 years old and always voted for the quality candidate I am indirectly a floating voter. However, despite being a strong critic of FF I have decided to vote FF in the next election because I have come to the conclusion that the issue isnt just FF its more what will replace them and for the life of me I cannot see a serious alternative

jank · 28-02-2010 05:26AM

patmar wrote: »

" There's a anti FF bandwagon, jump on it !! "

I was one of those who jumped on that bandwagon even before the crash mainly because of house prices

Back in November I discovered sites like Facebook and sites like this with lots of politics. Have realised 99% of the these sites content are anti FF and added to the media its clear FF are getting a hammering. Had no problem with that until it dawned on me that though FF are getting a well deserved hammering what the other side have to offer is a total blank. This I said to myself is a crazy situation and I even asked a few questions on other sites about this problem. I got vicious abuse in return and these people jumped to the conclusion I was FF !!
As someone who is 64 years old and always voted for the quality candidate I am indirectly a floating voter. However, despite being a strong critic of FF I have decided to vote FF in the next election because I have come to the conclusion that the issue isnt just FF its more what will replace them and for the life of me I cannot see a serious alternative

You might have had a point until you said that you are going to vote for FF regardless. Since we dont know when the next election will be you have no idea yet who the candidates are so your point about voting for the "quality candidate" doesn't hold water at all. So...??

As a matter of interest what is it about the other parties your don't like, is it the way they talk, their haircuts, their policies?

rugbyman · 28-02-2010 11:48AM

Just read through all of this. a bit dismayed by the vitriol, I have some comments,

1 Paddyland,
you mentioned that others may have more eloquence, i disagree, your post was superb, well written in words and in meaning. I do not hate FF ,but over the years i have come to the same conclusion that they ,naturally i suppose packed their people into every position in the country. in action i have seen some of their representatives put party before people regularly.

2 Scofflaw,
your contention that FG offer more of the same(you did not refer to corruption , neither am i) is reasonable.

3
scr 123 (hope i remembered your name right). it is fairly easy to see through vitriolic paragraphs and "read" the writer. I find it difficult to see you as you portray yourself as a floater, following your initial posts on this thread.

4
Chap who moved to Thurles, ( forgive my lack of memory)
I liked your honest and detailed answer, it certainly was against the grain of the questioner who asked you, though i also cannot recall meeting many FF regular voters voting FG. depends on the age of the voter somewhat. the civil war still rages.

Regards, Rugbyman

p.s. i liked and agree somewhat with the FG/ fruit juice...FF Cognac line.

Liam Byrne · 28-02-2010 12:36PM

patmar wrote: »

" There's a anti FF bandwagon, jump on it !! "

:rolleyes:

It's a typical FF-supporter response at this stage - condescending in the extreme if you believe that it's a case of a jumping on a "bandwagon", rather than viewing FF as unfit for office.

It's actually the type of bull**** that Cowen engages in regularly, and O'Dea spouted similar rubbish, refusing to accept that people legitimately view him as unfit for office due to his actions.

patmar · 28-02-2010 11:29PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It's a typical FF-supporter response at this stage - condescending in the extreme if you believe that it's a case of a jumping on a "bandwagon", rather than viewing FF as unfit for office.

It's actually the type of bull**** that Cowen engages in regularly, and O'Dea spouted similar rubbish, refusing to accept that people legitimately view him as unfit for office due to his actions.

The point of my post made it clear I now know enough about how and why FF is unfit for office. I would love just for once to have someone forget about FF and tell me why the opposition is fit for office

patmar · 28-02-2010 11:31PM

jank wrote: »

You might have had a point until you said that you are going to vote for FF regardless. Since we dont know when the next election will be you have no idea yet who the candidates are so your point about voting for the "quality candidate" doesn't hold water at all. So...??

As a matter of interest what is it about the other parties your don't like, is it the way they talk, their haircuts, their policies?

I know absolutely nothing about the other parties and their policies. perhaps you might enlighten me ?

Liam Byrne · 28-02-2010 11:39PM

patmar wrote: »

I know absolutely nothing about the other parties and their policies. perhaps you might enlighten me ?

And you're then saying that you'll "vote for FF regardless" ????

No wonder the country is screwed!

I read the newspapers today, and yet again Cowen is either thick or in denial.

He's - apparently - still of the opinion that people hate FF "because of the tough decisions that they've had to take".

Here's a newsflash, Mr Cowen......that's simply not true.

We hate you because of what your party has done to make those tough decisions required.

And - given your complete lack of accountability (as demonstrated again by your party's vote of confidence for O'Donoghue and O'Dea) - we don't trust you either.

So stop lying to yourself and face facts.

Red_Marauder · 01-03-2010 03:24AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I take your point that it's tiresome to continuously repeat the incompetence and corruption, and that is precisely why people end up resorting to "y'know - the usual".
The fact is that any time anything is raised, FF just get defensive and show zero accountability. THAT is what needs to change, and when it does then we won't have to repeat ourselves and will have no basis for saying "more of the usual".

Then the answer is not to wait for FF to change, but to do something about it yourself. Complaining and complaining and political pestering until an organisation changes is not productive - you simply don't give them a democratic mandate and you vote for someone else, or establish an alternative. Simple.
So far the Irish people have not changed their vote, and they have not paid any attention to new alternatives. That tells you that your use of the term "we" is not particuarly a qualified one.

In other threads, you seem to want to lay the blame at people's feet; and whatever about the fact that there was some validity in other threads, the blame here is with the Government and the Opposition.

We've said what we won't tolerate, and we're repeatedly ignored.

What do you mean ignored? "We" voted them into power.

Sleepy · 01-03-2010 03:06PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Then the answer is not to wait for FF to change, but to do something about it yourself. Complaining and complaining and political pestering until an organisation changes is not productive - you simply don't give them a democratic mandate and you vote for someone else, or establish an alternative. Simple.

Really? Look at the alternative options:

1. Vote for Fianna Gael - not ideal since they're not going to get enough seats to form a government without Labour who'll hand the coffers to the likes of David Begg...

2. Get behind someone like Amhrán Nua who have absolutely zero chance of forming a part of any government for 20 years at least. (of the 7 minor/new parties running in the last election zero won seats - if you include the PD's, 2 got seats out of 8 parties)

3. ?

So far the Irish people have not changed their vote, and they have not paid any attention to new alternatives. That tells you that your use of the term "we" is not particuarly a qualified one.

What do you mean ignored? "We" voted them into power.

So far there are enough Irish people so disillusioned or uninterested that they could elect a government if they unified behind any party. A self-serving clan with no ideology beyond getting elected managed to fulfill that goal with the support of the grand total 27% of registered voters.

The fact is that those of us who want change are impotent (unless we're prepared to step outside of the law and start killing the incumbants).

Tommy Bateman · 01-03-2010 03:16PM

patmar wrote: »

I know absolutely nothing about the other parties and their policies. perhaps you might enlighten me ?

Ah sure there no good the lot of them, you'd be better off sticking to the old reliables. Sure, boys like Lenny aren't hip and groovy like the celebrity politicians, but they sure as hell get the job done. And sure isn't that what politcs is about at the end of day.

Red_Marauder · 01-03-2010 03:22PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Really? Look at the alternative options:
1. Vote for Fianna Gael - not ideal since they're not going to get enough seats to form a government without Labour

I've already said the prospect of entering Government with Labour is a very worrying one, but the answer to that, and something I intend to do, is just Leave out Labour. Don't vote for them. Problem solved. Fine Gael have enough TDs and new candidates to form a majority and that remains the party's first goal. I would rather see FG go into power with the Greens if they manage to hold any seats, since they have shown themselves to be particularly passive compared to their more tenacious colleagues on the left of the house.

2. Get behind someone like Amhrán Nua who have absolutely zero chance of forming a part of any government for 20 years at least. (of the 7 minor/new parties running in the last election zero won seats - if you include the PD's, 2 got seats out of 8 parties)

I would never suggest anyone ever vote for that political group (not sure they are a registered party yet?) but look at Clann na Poblachta. They filled a gap in Irish politics that most political whingers with no other party allegiances are currently too lazy or too apathetic or too unorganised to fill.

If you want change, get change. Don't expect to find it on a web forum or for it to come knocking on your door.

Laminations · 01-03-2010 03:24PM

Look I'm not here to canvas for another party. I'm here to constantly remind people of the horrible job FF have done in government (in recent times). Because people have short memories or others show blind loyalty. I dont need my own policies to gighlight corruption or unfairness or waste. RM you are a member of FG so you can spout their policies all you want. I'll be equally critical of any party if they make a similar haimes of things in government. I'm quite critical of the opposition as it is for the haimes they are making in opposition, they should be doing much better against this sham of a government.

RM, can you point out the policies of FFs that you agree with which I have been unfairly critical towards??

I want change, I intend to vote for change but at the same time I can see the weaknesses in opposition (while recognising they are still far better than FF)

Red_Marauder · 01-03-2010 03:31PM

Laminations wrote: »

RM, can you point out the policies of FFs that you agree with which I have been unfairly critical towards??

But that's the crux of the issue. There's no specific criticism.

I don't want to single any poster out, but since you have brought it up - I never see you actually engage with issues. You talk about waste and mismanagement in a very general way quite repeatedly, but there is no specific discussion of the policy issues or any indication whatsoever of what a better alternative might be and who specifically might provide that alternative and how.

And for the record, I am not talking about unfair criticism. The criticism about waste and mismanagement is valid. I'm talking about the nature of the criticism - repetitive negativity is not criticism, it just amounts to harping on about a problem.

With solutions rarely offered, coupled witht the general disdain for poltiicians on this forum and the general consensus of "they're all as bad as each other" which is rampant here, well the issue of what exactly people want is very unclear.

Laminations · 01-03-2010 03:53PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

With solutions rarely offered, coupled witht the general disdain for poltiicians on this forum and the general consensus of "they're all as bad as each other" which is rampant here, well the issue of what exactly people want is very unclear.

Go check my post in your 'What do you want' thread. My criticism isn't policy specific, its a criticism of the generally poor level of government and the low standards to which they hold themselves. Also I cannot stand that line "they're all as bad as each other" and I try and pull people up on it when they use it. I dont see much point in a micro-analysis of policies on here, we are not policy advisors and no one from government is going to be reading this and take on board criticisms or suggested alternatives. Do you think Brian Lenihan will scrap NAMA because he read about a better alternative on boards.ie?

I'm highlighting general problems and intend to use my vote to solve them.

Red_Marauder · 01-03-2010 04:08PM

Laminations wrote: »

My criticism isn't policy specific

Exactly. You might not think that's a problem, personally I disagree.

I dislike party loyalty. I don't agree with everything Richard Bruton or Enda Kenny say, but they are the leaders of a party which best corresponds with my own beliefs. But I think that if Fianna Fáil come up with good ideas - such as NAMA, lowering alcohol duties, introducing the bank guarantee, recapitalisation (imo) and so on - then these ideas should be afforded respect.

Personally, under normal conditions, after giving first preferences to Fine Gael I would then sooner vote Fianna Fáil than any other Dail party. IK think those of us who support Fine Gael must realise that FF policies are the second best thing to our policies. It is totally illogical to suggest that our policies are better aligned with Labour's or The Greens.

Perhaps in the current political climate is understandable, but in general I don't see why a FG voter would ever vote Labour, SF or Green instead of FF.

I am not particularly talking about you, but there are users on this forum who will oppose anything that Fianna Fáil say. They would nearly swear blind that black is white if it meant opposing Fianna Fáil. That is what I cannot understand

I dont see much point in a micro-analysis of policies on here, we are not policy advisors and no one from government is going to be reading this and take on board criticisms or suggested alternatives.

No but analysis of policies is far more fruitful than simply repeating tired assertions about the efficacy of some politicians or otherwise. You can sum up the fact that Fianna Fáil have failed in one sentance. Real political debate, it seems to me, is about challenging or siding with policy measures, not parties.

Do you think Brian Lenihan will scrap NAMA because he read about a better alternative on boards.ie?

Of course not. But that's not what people expect from posting here. Nobody, I would imagine, would post here for political advantage, or they would be rather disappointed if they did.

I'm highlighting general problems and intend to use my vote to solve them.

Highlighting problems is fine, what I'm saying is that highlighting solutions is more effective.

Laminations · 01-03-2010 04:25PM

Its the ethos of FF i disagree with. And i'm glad you are not an official mouth piece for FG because trying to alligo their policies and side up with FF would lose you my vote. Policy wise they may not be worlds apart but ethos wise, standards wise, fairness wise i believe they are. Did you just say you agreed with NAMA? As a policy it is fundamentally flawed, based on the false premise that property prices have only fallen 30%. It is showing its weaknesses in the delays transferring the loans and go the admittance that it will not increase bank lending, one of the aims we were pedaled at the outset. An alternative policy would be to let anglo and nib, two rotten institutions, fail and recapitalise or part nationalise the other main banks. Bond holders would lose out, thats the risk they took. Moving private debt onto the publics shoulders is treasonous, its covered under my criticism of FFs idea of fairness.

Liam Byrne · 01-03-2010 06:57PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Then the answer is not to wait for FF to change, but to do something about it yourself. Complaining and complaining and political pestering until an organisation changes is not productive - you simply don't give them a democratic mandate and you vote for someone else, or establish an alternative. Simple.

I'm not waiting for FF to change; I think they're incapable of it.

And I haven't given them a "democratic mandate"....I've "voted for someone else" ever since I was old enough to understand what they stand for.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

That tells you that your use of the term "we" is not particuarly a qualified one.

What do you mean ignored? "We" voted them into power.

Your use of the term "we" is not a particularly qualified one either, obviously.

You've said you would vote for them, remember ?

I've said I wouldn't.

And I'm perfectly entitled to remind people why they shouldn't......just because you choose to ignore that doesn't mean I'm going to stop.

jmayo · 01-03-2010 08:30PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Exactly. You might not think that's a problem, personally I disagree.

... But I think that if Fianna Fáil come up with good ideas - such as NAMA, lowering alcohol duties, introducing the bank guarantee, recapitalisation (imo) and so on - then these ideas should be afforded respect.

Personally, under normal conditions, after giving first preferences to Fine Gael I would then sooner vote Fianna Fáil than any other Dail party. IK think those of us who support Fine Gael must realise that FF policies are the second best thing to our policies. It is totally illogical to suggest that our policies are better aligned with Labour's or The Greens.

Perhaps in the current political climate is understandable, but in general I don't see why a FG voter would ever vote Labour, SF or Green instead of FF.

I am not particularly talking about you, but there are users on this forum who will oppose anything that Fianna Fáil say. They would nearly swear blind that black is white if it meant opposing Fianna Fáil. That is what I cannot understand

No but analysis of policies is far more fruitful than simply repeating tired assertions about the efficacy of some politicians or otherwise. You can sum up the fact that Fianna Fáil have failed in one sentance. Real political debate, it seems to me, is about challenging or siding with policy measures, not parties.
Of course not. But that's not what people expect from posting here. Nobody, I would imagine, would post here for political advantage, or they would be rather disappointed if they did.
Highlighting problems is fine, what I'm saying is that highlighting solutions is more effective.

As someone that always would comment on the inept, incompetent, unethical performances of ff, I assume I would be one of the posters you alude to in your posts.

One of the reasons for this is that I, in much the same way as Laminations points out, feel that the ff party for as long as I can remember (back to beginning of haughey reign) have operated in a fashion that has always put party first, supporters first and state second.
Thus by extension I as mere citizen of this state will come a distant second.
Have I now no right to complain about this ?

The list of decisions taken and policies implemented in the last 13 years by ff that I believe were benefical to the state are definetly countable on one hand.
Note I also include in this the porjects they have undertaken that resulted in massive cost overruns and even when completed are often unfit for purpose.

Your claim that people can only complain about ff if they have viable alternatives is being a tad condescending and trying to stifle people's right to demand better from those who are supposed to be our government.

I don't need to know the exact law in question, to know that lying to a high court judge is wrong.
Should I not complain that my country's government had such a person as a minister ?

I don't need to be an economist or a financial whizz kid to notice that paying over the market value for something, something that is still loosing value, is not good business sense.
Yet we are all supposed to believe NAMA is a good way or rather the best way forward out of this mess.
Should I not complain that I believe the costs of NAMA will be too high and that the whole premise of it not costing the taxpayer is based on the fallacy that property will go back towards bubble prices ?
Am I meant to have a white paper in readiness to sastify your criteria before I comment ?

Are we all supposed to have an alternative ready before we dare condemn the dodgy deals, the inept performances, the grotesque decisions that has doomed this country ?

Most sane, non vested interested people and groups, view NAMA as a crime against the state since we are, at massive risk to the taxpayers and society as a whole, affectively bailing out the banks who through sheer greed and gross incompetence landed themselves into this mess.

Laminations · 01-03-2010 08:40PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Setting out a position and then not coming up with any alternative is just like being a map-reader in the passenger seat who simply shouts No all the time.

Sometimes shouting No prevents a catastrophe like going over a cliff.

Ever hear of 'back to the drawing board'? That phrase would never exist if critics mapped out the correct path for the ones tasked with constructing a plan.

paddyland · 01-03-2010 11:07PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I am not particularly talking about you, but there are users on this forum who will oppose anything that Fianna Fáil say. They would nearly swear blind that black is white if it meant opposing Fianna Fáil. That is what I cannot understand

It is a bit like two lads robbing a JCB, driving to the bank, knocking down the wall, and then running away with the ATM. You then say, look lads, we'll forget about the JCB and the robbery, and you can keep the money, if you'd just rebuild the bank wall for us.

Sorry, but no thanks.

I don't care if Brian Lenihan is the only man on the planet who can get us out of a crisis, he stands for a party that are ethically and morally corrupt, and who would lead us all like lemmings straight back into the hole again.

Fianna Fáil tell so much lies, that if anyone from FF had the answers to this economic crisis, you couldn't believe a word they say. How do you differentiate the genuine word of honesty and truth when 90% of what you get is spin and excuses and lies and fudge?

The only people who can convince me that FF can solve this crisis, are FF themselves, and I wouldn't believe a single word out of any of their mouths. You ask me to TRUST any of them??? Not in a million years.

I might add too, that the very same goes for Fine Gael. Fine Gael might just as likely have the definitive answer to all our woes, but for the very same reasons, I wouldn't be able to trust a word they say, because they too, unfortunately, play the spin and lies game. All that does is undermine any genuine credibility they may have.

You ask about solutions. I want to live in a society, where I work a fair day's work, for a fair day's wage, and pay a fair day's tax. I want that tax spent on hospitals, schools, and thereafter whatever is needed for a stringently and efficiently run public service. My tax is not a personal slush fund for corrupt politicians to splash around on wasteful splurges, selfish interests and showcasing, while the hospitals and schools go underfunded.

The first step on the road to achieving that, is to pull the FF-dominated political structures asunder, and replace them with a fair electoral system that prevents one political party from taking over and controlling everything to their own ends, to the exclusion of everyone else. Nobody can do anything in this country unless it benefits the FF party. That needs to be broken before we ever move a step forward.

That is the point of all these complaints, and this thread.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Fianna Fáil, the party of SELF - Spin and Excuses and Lies and Fudge.

patmar · 01-03-2010 11:46PM

Yesterday I watched Man Utd V A/Villa and in the after match comments it was said this was Fergusons 26th trophy. An incredible record and it made me wonder about the ABU thing and is there an ABFF. Yes is the obvious answer and as I have said before on this thread the internet and the general media is the proof. In the GAA there is a AB Dublin, in UK there is an AB London, in the world there is an AB USA, Probably plenty more AB's but enough mentioned to illustrate the point that something captures our imagination and drives us to irrational thinking. BTW, I am not a Man Utd fan.
Now, I am convinced the ABFF notion is irrational because the opposition refuse to make any effort to indicate what they have to offer in place of FF. On this basis I am going to vote FF in next election even if it is regardless.

Is there anything more "regardless" than refusing to state your case so people like me have the opportunity to have choice ?

Red_Marauder · 01-03-2010 11:57PM

Laminations wrote: »

Did you just say you agreed with NAMA? As a policy it is fundamentally flawed, based on the false premise that property prices have only fallen 30%.

I don't think we want to get bogged down on NAMA here byt it is worth pointing out that this is not the fundamental principle behind NAMA. However I agree one of the principles is that property prices will recover somewhat.
30% is not a figure that can be thrown about either, since NAMA will be seeking higher discounts on loans depending on the magnitude of the liability to the taxpayer and also depending on the institution in question.

It is showing its weaknesses in the delays transferring the loans and go the admittance that it will not increase bank lending

The issue is not that it won't increase lending, it's that it won't immediately increase lending. The initial capital will be invested in international bonds which is an essential part of the process of our long road to recovery.

, one of the aims we were pedaled at the outset. An alternative policy would be to let anglo and nib, two rotten institutions, fail and recapitalise or part nationalise the other main banks. Bond holders would lose out, thats the risk they took. Moving private debt onto the publics shoulders is treasonous, its covered under my criticism of FFs idea of fairness.

Excuse me, what do you mean nationalise the banks on one hand, and then say moving private debt on to public shoulders is treasonous?

Whatever way you look at it, if the banks are to be saved, then a NAMA or an associate which serves the same purpose will be essential. Even FG, who you said you intend to vote for, plan on going down that road, except we call it something a bit different.

jmayo wrote:

Your claim that people can only complain about ff if they have viable alternatives is being a tad condescending

No it isn't, it's a fact.

Condemning a policy infers that one understands the policy, therefore understands its shortcomings. Surely it is logical that if you can spot shortcomings based on your intelligence, you can also formulate an alternative by addressing those same shortcomings.
All I am saying is that perhaps those people who constantly condemn on policy issues ought to enlighten us as to their alternatives.

paddyland wrote:

Fianna Fáil tell so much lies [...] I wouldn't believe a single word out of any of their mouths. You ask me to TRUST any of them??? Not in a million years.

paddyland wrote:

Fine Gael might just as likely have the definitive answer to all our woes, but[...] I wouldn't be able to trust a word they say, because they too, unfortunately, play the spin and lies game.

So you don't trust whatever party which will be leading the next Government? What are you doing about this apart from posting on an internate forum about your 'expectations', are you actively trying to affect any sort of change or just talking about it?

paddyland · 02-03-2010 12:07AM

patmar wrote: »

Yesterday I watched Man Utd V A/Villa and in the after match comments it was said this was Fergusons 26th trophy. An incredible record and it made me wonder about the ABU thing and is there an ABFF. Yes is the obvious answer and as I have said before on this thread the internet and the general media is the proof. In the GAA there is a AB Dublin, in UK there is an AB London, in the world there is an AB USA, Probably plenty more AB's but enough mentioned to illustrate the point that something captures our imagination and drives us to irrational thinking. BTW, I am not a Man Utd fan.
Now, I am convinced the ABFF notion is irrational because the opposition refuse to make any effort to indicate what they have to offer in place of FF. On this basis I am going to vote FF in next election even if it is regardless.

Is there anything more "regardless" than refusing to state your case so people like me have the opportunity to have choice ?

Yes, but Manchester United didn't destroy people's lives by actively pumping the British economy up away beyond all reason. They are merely guilty of being slightly over dominant in a football game. Hardly as crucial to people's livelihoods?

I am ABFF because that party has ravaged everything I would have thought civilised and decent in society, and left me struggling to live in a country that I love, but see being raped for the benefit of an elite group of people, at the expense of most ordinary people's standard of living and peace of mind.

Irrational? No, come and live the last three years of my life, and see how much I have lost due to the deliberate policies and incompetence of one particular FF minister, who destroyed the industry I worked in, and left me destitute after years of hard work and building a life for myself. The recession has nothing to do with my financial problems, although it leaves precious little opportunity for me to get back on my feet again.

Fianna Fáil are ROTTEN. We will never understand a tenth of the modus operandi of that party. At least some of us see them for what they are, and would like desperately to inform other people of just what they are responsible for.

paddyland · 02-03-2010 12:20AM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

So you don't trust whatever party which will be leading the next Government? What are you doing about this apart from posting on an internate forum about your 'expectations', are you actively trying to affect any sort of change or just talking about it?

Very simply, there was always a whiff of sulphur about FF, but as long as people thought they were personally doing well, or had a small fiddle going themselves, then everything was hunky dory.

Now people are starting to see just how damaging they were. The more people like me vent our frustrations, the more confidence people will have in their convictions, and the more the media might pick up on the public mood. We can't change anything overnight, but the more voices are added to the clamour, slowly, we might be able to foist the change in our political structures, through pressure from outside the establishment.

That change will NOT come from the vested interests inside the establishment. And anyone else who goes into the establishment, as Mary Robinson might say, to change it from the inside, will be chewed up and spat out.

I see no point in new political parties, or joining the existing parties. All I can do is add my voice, and hope that the clamour eventually becomes a roar, and that sometime, something will come of that. This is not going to go away, it is about time ordinary people were listened to, or at least treated with some kind of respect, and not the disdain politics has treated people with increasingly in recent times.

Liam Byrne · 02-03-2010 12:36AM

patmar wrote: »

Probably plenty more AB's but enough mentioned to illustrate the point that something captures our imagination and drives us to irrational thinking. BTW, I am not a Man Utd fan.
Now, I am convinced the ABFF notion is irrational because the opposition refuse to make any effort to indicate what they have to offer in place of FF.

Have you refused point blank to even read the points being made ?

The reason that - as you call it - "ABFF" exists is because of a perfectly rational objection to corruption

Sheesh!

As for policies - yes, I'd prefer if there were some better/clearer ones too; but - YET AGAIN I NEED TO SAY IT - there is no policy that excuses waste and incompetence and corruption.

So the obvious thing to do is to get rid of that first.

patmar wrote: »

On this basis I am going to vote FF in next election even if it is regardless.

Is there anything more "regardless" than refusing to state your case so people like me have the opportunity to have choice ?

You have a choice. You can vote for more corruption combined with incompetence and lack of accountability.

But something tells me that you won't bother, no matter what I say. :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne · 02-03-2010 12:39AM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Condemning a policy infers that one understands the policy, therefore understands its shortcomings. Surely it is logical that if you can spot shortcomings based on your intelligence, you can also formulate an alternative by addressing those same shortcomings.
All I am saying is that perhaps those people who constantly condemn on policy issues ought to enlighten us as to their alternatives.

OK - even though I disagree, since those with the resources and who are paid to study these things should be capable of coming up with policies that represent us....that's what we pay them to do, after all, and if they refuse to do so we can hopefully fire them sometime between now and 2012.

But what if you condemn an ethos of corruption and abdicating responsibilty ?

The real Fianna Fáil issue

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