The real Fianna Fáil issue

jank

patmar wrote: »

I know absolutely nothing about the other parties and their policies. perhaps you might enlighten me ?

So you give out about the opposistion but then claim that you know nothing about the other parties. It's very easy, Google Fine Gael, Labour, Sinn Fein, PBP etc.
Send off a few emails etc.

Who knows it may surprise you that there are other parties out there that may have an idea or two unlike the "sure their all the same" that FF and their like spout to stop voters moving.

jank

patmar wrote: »

Back in November I discovered sites like Facebook and sites like this with lots of politics. Have realised 99% of the these sites content are anti FF and added to the media its clear FF are getting a hammering. Had no problem with that until it dawned on me that though FF are getting a well deserved hammering what the other side have to offer is a total blank. This I said to myself is a crazy situation and I even asked a few questions on other sites about this problem. I got vicious abuse in return and these people jumped to the conclusion I was FF !!
As someone who is 64 years old and always voted for the quality candidate I am indirectly a floating voter. However, despite being a strong critic of FF I have decided to vote FF in the next election because I have come to the conclusion that the issue isnt just FF its more what will replace them and for the life of me I cannot see a serious alternative

patmar wrote: »

I know absolutely nothing about the other parties and their policies. perhaps you might enlighten me ?

Here ladies and gentlemen is an example of the 25% of the "core" FF voters!

jank

patmar wrote: »

Yesterday I watched Man Utd V A/Villa and in the after match comments it was said this was Fergusons 26th trophy. An incredible record and it made me wonder about the ABU thing and is there an ABFF. Yes is the obvious answer and as I have said before on this thread the internet and the general media is the proof. In the GAA there is a AB Dublin, in UK there is an AB London, in the world there is an AB USA, Probably plenty more AB's but enough mentioned to illustrate the point that something captures our imagination and drives us to irrational thinking. BTW, I am not a Man Utd fan.
Now, I am convinced the ABFF notion is irrational because the opposition refuse to make any effort to indicate what they have to offer in place of FF. On this basis I am going to vote FF in next election even if it is regardless.

Is there anything more "regardless" than refusing to state your case so people like me have the opportunity to have choice ?

OK now this has to be a wind up!:D

Red_Marauder

paddyland wrote: »

That change will NOT come from the vested interests inside the establishment. And anyone else who goes into the establishment, as Mary Robinson might say, to change it from the inside, will be chewed up and spat out.

Yes... the obvious point here is that Mary Robinson did engage with the political process, did work from the inside, and to this day uses her leverage as a former head of state and a former UN official insider to influence human rights policy. She is an activist, not someone whose political engagement begins and ends with the internet.

Personally, I believe in the ability, the ethos and the policies of Fine Gael. But if you don't like them yourself, and you don't much like the other parties either, then why complain? Why do you expect change to be visited upon you wrapped in a big red ribbon?

Two words that have been missing from the collective national vocabulary recently; Personal Responsibility. If you don't like something, don't sit around waiting for someone else to do something productive about it.

Liam Byrne wrote:

those with the resources and who are paid to study these things should be capable of coming up with policies that represent us....

Two issues here. Firstly, the term "those with the resources". Have you ever bothered using the internet to educate yourself on these kinds of policies? Online journals? Newspapers? Public library resources? Government bodies? What resources are you lacking exactly.

Secondly, these peiple are coming up with polcies that represent us - they are called the political parties and the top three enjoy the overwhelming support of the electorate. They produce new policies day by day, week by week, month by month and they must be doing something right because they are still leading the polls. What do you want, for them to cast off their policies to appeal only to marginal voters?

paddyland

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Yes... the obvious point here is that Mary Robinson did engage with the political process, did work from the inside, and to this day uses her leverage as a former head of state and a former UN official insider to influence human rights policy. She is an activist, not someone whose political engagement begins and ends with the internet.

Mary Robinson was a particularly special individual. She was very clever, and had an intellectual ability few would have. Besides which, her career was her life's vocation, based on honesty and integrity. We could do with a few more Mary Robinsons, and less of the other types of Marys. One of the first things we need to do is to understand why politics appears to appeal so unfortunately to the wrong types of Marys, and seems to scare off the Mary Robinsons. If there were more Mary Robinsons, people would vote for them, I am sure. But real Mary Robinsons are few and far between, a very special type of person, who have immense ability and integrity. You can't just have anyone in there.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Secondly, these peiple are coming up with polcies that represent us - they are called the political parties and the top three enjoy the overwhelming support of the electorate. They produce new policies day by day, week by week, month by month and they must be doing something right because they are still leading the polls. What do you want, for them to cast off their policies to appeal only to marginal voters?

Policies? You must be joking. Fianna Fáil have one policy, that is to spin any sh1te that will further their grip on power, regardless of this country going to hell. The party whip keeps them in line with regard to that one policy, making sure no renegades open their mouths to offend the party. It is up to everyone else outside that cosy establishment to open their mouths.

Overwhelming support? Have you seen the turnout at the last few elections? What percentage of voters who did vote, do you think voted with any real conviction, and didn't just go through the motions? Overwhelming my ass. There is nobody to vote for only tweedledum or tweedledee, toss them in the air and see who comes down first. The whole thing is a charade, and most people don't care either way. Only a handful of party stalwarts on all sides take it seriously, and usually for tribal reasons. It's just a pity that the end result is a country stumbling along in the gutter.

Liam Byrne

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Two words that have been missing from the collective national vocabulary recently; Personal Responsibility. If you don't like something, don't sit around waiting for someone else to do something productive about it.

Well, we were trying that by continuously highlighting the incompetence and corruption, but - despite you being a supporter of a different party - you still objected.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Two issues here. Firstly, the term "those with the resources". Have you ever bothered using the internet to educate yourself on these kinds of policies? Online journals? Newspapers? Public library resources? Government bodies? What resources are you lacking exactly.

Oh, I dunno.......the money required to sit on my arse "researching" all day ?

Sure if all that research is so easily done, why do we bother paying the secretaries and family members and quangos at all ? :rolleyes:

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Secondly, these peiple are elected on the premise of coming up with polcies that represent us - they are called the political parties and the top three enjoy the overwhelming support of the electorate. They produce new policies day by day, week by week, month by month and they must be doing something right because they are still leading the polls. What do you want, for them to cast off their policies to appeal only to marginal voters?

Who are we talking about now ? I'm confused.

New policies "day by day" ????? Are you joking ? And if not, then no wonder they're half-assed and ill-thought-through.

BTW - forget the "policies" for a second; I'm interested in seeing ethics and accountability - first and foremost.

Given that you previously expressed a preference for / condoning of unethical business, I'm not surprised that you don't see this as a priority.

danman

jank wrote: »

Here ladies and gentlemen is an example of the 25% of the "core" FF voters!

Your making a very broad assesment of Patmar.
He said that he isn't a FF'er, but a floating voter.

I'm in the same position as him. I'm not a supporter of any party. I've given my vote to many candidates from most of the parties (bar SF).

I'm also a floating voter.
Myself and Pat are the type of voters that the opposition and the government need to convince.

All I read here by certain posters, is hatred.

It no, no, no.
I read all the opposition, that every word uttered by FF generates.

I've been talking to a number of my friends, a lot of them have come to a similar conclusion.

I'm considering giving FF my number 1 for the first time.

FG would need to buck up, if they want to get into government.
The negitivity is making me sick.

There will be policies that they should oppose, but change the record.
Every day in the Dail, they simply oppose everything.

Remember, a lot of the policies of this present government are coming from the civil service. FF are directing things, as FG would do.

Tell me again how I can be a part of the 25% core FF voters.
That was a very patranising statement. For both me and Patmar.

Liam Byrne

danman wrote: »

Myself and Pat are the type of voters that the opposition and the government need to convince.

I'm considering giving FF my number 1 for the first time.

Well obviously they don't need to convince you, so.

danman wrote: »

FG would need to buck up, if they want to get into government.
The negitivity is making me sick.

You have a problem with "negativity" ? But you're still considering voting for those who caused this "negativity" (as you call it - it's really an objection to corruption and incompetence, rather than being "negativity").

danman wrote: »

Tell me again how I can be a part of the 25% core FF voters.

That was a very patranising statement. For both me and Patmar.

OK - you're not part of the 25%; but you're still prepared to accept the two fingers that the public got via FF's "vote of confidence" for O'Dea, etc ? And Ahern having unexplained cash, and Coughlan's incompetence, and O'Donoghue treating our money like a slush fund, and the "zero-accountability" or consequences for the (coincidentally FF-associated) bankers and developers who got us into this mess ?

i.e. you're OK with corruption and incompetence ?

Because the only way to stop this crap is to vote against it and for enough people to let them know that we don't accept it.

Some of us have been doing that for years, but others - like yourself - appear to be perfectly happy with all that I've mentioned above.

That - IMHO - is a very biased "floating voter".

Red_Marauder

paddyland wrote: »

Policies? You must be joking. Fianna Fáil have one policy, that is to spin any sh1te that will further their grip on power, regardless of this country going to hell. The party whip keeps them in line with regard to that one policy, making sure no renegades open their mouths to offend the party. It is up to everyone else outside that cosy establishment to open their mouths.

Where are you going with this line? It doesn't matter what anybody asks you or points out to yoy you just repeat the same old mantra again and again and again. For goodness' sake FF are just one party. without the support of the majority of voters they would be nobodies. It is the public who annoints them leaders. The public vote for them en masse.

If you're not happy with the voters choices... tough luck.

There is nobody to vote for only tweedledum or tweedledee, toss them in the air and see who comes down first. The whole thing is a charade, and most people don't care either way.

Well if they don't care, they won't be grumbling. And if they're not doing anything about it or not engaging, what's the point of grumbling anyway?

Liam Carroll wrote:

Given that you previously expressed a preference for / condoning of unethical business, I'm not surprised that you don't see this as a priority.

The only time I said I would prefer unethical business practices was in the face of an alternative to Bolsheviks - which you, rather unsurprisingly - prefer.

Laminations

danman wrote: »

I'm in the same position as him. I'm not a supporter of any party. I've given my vote to many candidates from most of the parties (bar SF).

See the evidence that you use to 'bar SF' from any kind of vote? now go inform yourself of the corruption, low standards and unfairness pedalled by FF and apply the same stance of barring them from mere consideration. The fact that all this evidence is out there and people still need to consider FF makes me despair and I think that for all our highlighting of the issues, some people will never learn

jmayo

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Where are you going with this line? It doesn't matter what anybody asks you or points out to yoy you just repeat the same old mantra again and again and again. For goodness' sake FF are just one party. without the support of the majority of voters they would be nobodies. It is the public who annoints them leaders. The public vote for them en masse.

If you're not happy with the voters choices... tough luck.

Well if they don't care, they won't be grumbling. And if they're not doing anything about it or not engaging, what's the point of grumbling anyway?
The only time I said I would prefer unethical business practices was in the face of an alternative to Bolsheviks - which you, rather unsurprisingly - prefer.

Red_Marauder,
I asked this jokingly in the past if your account had been hacked, becuase as someone who purports to be FG you spend an almighty amount of time on these threads defending ff.
There are only a couple of ff posters around, including IMHO the ones that claim they are floating yet miraculsously have no problem with the complete lack of ethics of ff not to mention their complete incompetence.
They even claim that they have decided to vote ff at the next election. :rolleyes:

Yes you have defended ff on numerous threads now, including NAMA AFAIK.
You have gotten into discussions where you cliam no one has a right to complain about ff unless they have alternatives,

So are you really FG at all ?
Or are you more concerned with preserving the status quo, no matter who it is rather than speaking out about what most of see as an unethical incompetent shower of wasters ?

All parties need to up their game, but ff need to be removed from power before they totally destory what is left of this country and what is left of our democratic political system.
The damage they have done to democracy in this country far outweighs the threats that terrorist groups pose or posed.

Note: I know mods might say we are not meant to discuss party allegiance or who people vote for, but I think it does have relevance when people post certain statements which don't quiet tally with their party allegiance claims.

Personally I have no problem admitting I am pro FG since they probably best represent my economic believes and political compass.
I am vehemently anti ff, becuase guess what I don't like having lying two faced, sometimes corrupt, unethical, majorily incompetent, toally irresponsible sleveens who look after their own in preference to the good of the country as my elected respresentatives and government.

Oh and to another poster on these forums, that is not being irrational it is having principles, believeing in ethical behaviour and sticking to those ideals.

Laminations

danman wrote: »

Every day in the Dail, they simply oppose everything.

Tell us, in your opinion, what great FF policies should they support? Whatever about criticising posters on here for blanketly opposing FF, the opposition are not merely opposing, they are actually proposing other (I believe fairer) ways to deal with the crisis that lets not forget, FF got us into.

Red_Marauder

jmayo wrote: »

Yes you have defended ff on numerous threads now, including NAMA AFAIK.

Garrett Fitzgerald and John Bruton, two former Fine Gael Taoisigh, have shown support for Fianna Fáil's economic policies. I happen to agree with their (rather better informed) opinions and I too, even as a Fine Gael member, think the Government is actually going in the right direction. That's because whatever the official line might be, the principle of saving the banks by taking on their debts is a common policy shared between FG and FF. We also share a line on public sector cuts and recapitalisation. That's all.

You have gotten into discussions where you cliam no one has a right to complain about ff unless they have alternatives,

No. I'm talking about people who complain about the two parties - FG and FF. I'm referring specifically to people who write off all politicians.

As it happens, I do also think that writing off the entire FF party is as unrealistic as writing off any large group of people or organisation.

danman

Laminations wrote: »

See the evidence that you use to 'bar SF' from any kind of vote? now go inform yourself of the corruption, low standards and unfairness pedalled by FF and apply the same stance of barring them from mere consideration. The fact that all this evidence is out there and people still need to consider FF makes me despair and I think that for all our highlighting of the issues, some people will never learn

I have friends, who's family had bombs put under their cars. I cannot give them any of my support.

I sometimes wish that I hadn't found this site. FG would have had my vote, simply because of what's happened to this country.

Some posters simply rant at every opportunity.

I don't know anyone else politics, and no one knows mine.

Looking at right now, I can see a lot of work in the right direction by this government.
It's the fact that that is never mentioned or acknowlaged by posters.

Red M is the only FG person on this site that would convince me now to vote FG.
He seems informed and yet gives credit where it's due.

If I get called stupid, as the majority of Irish voters have been called on this site, why would we believe the ranters any more than FF.

I've yet to be called names by the goverment, yet, the opposition supporters seem to think that by calling the Irish electorite stupid, we can be convinced to vote for the opposition.

Calm down the lot of you with the rants.

I am a floating voter. Convince me in a civil manner.
There are a number of posters that I've had to put on my ignore list, simply because of the rants and venom.
At this rate, I'll only be able to read posts from FF'ers.

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Garrett Fitzgerald and John Bruton, two former Fine Gael Taoisigh, have shown support for Fianna Fáil's economic policies. I happen to agree with their (rather better informed) opinions and I too, even as a Fine Gael member, think the Government is actually going in the right direction.

Rather better informed than the current heads of FG? If I though FF were going in the right direction then I'd vote for them. You thinking this yet voting FG shows party loyalty - you are no different to a FFer in this.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

No. I'm talking about people who complain about the two parties - FG and FF. I'm referring specifically to people who write off all politicians.

Who is doing that? we all seem to be advocating voting in an alternative. We have every right to criticise aspects of that alternative. I would imagine those who blanketly oppose FF, like me, are very anti the 'they are all the same' mantra

Red_Marauder wrote: »

As it happens, I do also think that writing off the entire FF party is as unrealistic as writing off any large group of people or organisation.

I'll bite my tongue and refrain from falling foul of Godwins law. I'll just say this, some organisations have an ethos that supercedes any small good that a minority of members may do, yes by all means recognise those members but if they are voluntarily part of the bigger, rotten organisation then they identify with that bigger, rotten ethos.

Laminations

danman wrote: »

FG would have had my vote, simply because of what's happened to this country.

And whats changed?

danman wrote: »

If I get called stupid, as the majority of Irish voters have been called on this site, why would we believe the ranters any more than FF.

Facts. The dearth of evidence that highlights FF incompetence and lack of standards.
Are you suggesting you will vote FF as a protest against posters who say voting FF is stupid? Wow, psychological reactance if ever I saw it. We are not saying you are stupid, we are providing instances of FF f***ing up this country so you can inform yourself.

Red_Marauder

Laminations wrote: »

Rather better informed than the current heads of FG? If I though FF were going in the right direction then I'd vote for them. You thinking this yet voting FG shows party loyalty - you are no different to a FFer in this.

No, I didn't say that. FG oppose NAMA but they propose something only slightly different and the principle remains the same. The public alleviates bank debts. I think FG have a slightly better mechanism planned to do that - one which it is entirely possible the Government did'nt think of. However, the essence of the plan the Government has in place, a combination of NAMA and recapitalisation, seems to me to be sound and legitimate.

Who is doing that? we all seem to be advocating voting in an alternative. We have every right to criticise aspects of that alternative. I would imagine those who blanketly oppose FF, like me, are very anti the 'they are all the same' mantra

It has been done multiple times I am thinking particularly of paddyland

Laminations

danman wrote: »

I am a floating voter. Convince me in a civil manner.
There are a number of posters that I've had to put on my ignore list, simply because of the rants and venom.
At this rate, I'll only be able to read posts from FF'ers.

Apologies if people are getting ranty. It is the frustration of being put in a position where we are being asked to convince.

When evidence abounds, convincing should be easy, opinions should fall into line with the overwhelming evidence on an issue....many people are making convincing very hard. I think if you are not convinced already, you never will be.

READ THIS

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

No, I didn't say that. FG oppose NAMA but they propose something only slightly different and the principle remains the same. The public alleviates bank debts. I think FG have a slightly better mechanism planned to do that - one which it is entirely possible the Government did'nt think of. However, the essence of the plan the Government has in place, a combination of NAMA and recapitalisation, seems to me to be sound and legitimate.
/QUOTE]

I dont want to get bogged down on NAMA but if you saw the Frontline with Brian Luceys opposition to NAMA, you would know where I stand. Yes we need to fix and recapitalise the banks, but we need a less risky return for our taking on board this debt. NAMA is overcomplicated and overcostly (worth reading this ). It will overpay for loans and still be left with the prospect of pumping in an unknown quantity of billions into the banks. I side with Lucey on this or indeed the NUIM guy in the audience. I dont think Richard Bruton would like you saying that FGs idea is fundamentally the same as FFs, NAMA is different to the alternative plans in some very serious respects.

danman

Laminations wrote: »

Apologies if people are getting ranty. It is the frustration of being put in a position where we are being asked to convince.

When evidence abounds, convincing should be easy, opinions should fall into line with the overwhelming evidence on an issue....many people are making convincing very hard. I think if you are not convinced already, you never will be.

READ THIS

Very good. I had a good laugh at myself there

I think I also have a mental aversion to Daily Mail/Liveline type outrages.

When I read or hear this type of outrage, I normally head in the other direction.

I think that is the reason why I'm moving towards FF.
Joe Duffy would be proud if he could motivate the level of outrage of some posters on this site.

Liam Byrne

danman wrote: »

Looking at right now, I can see a lot of work in the right direction by this government.
It's the fact that that is never mentioned or acknowlaged by posters.

It is acknowledged, but most people realise that the work right now would not have been required if FF had done work in the right direction for the last 20-odd years, allowed Ahern to remain as Taoiseach, and abdicated responsibility when it came to his appointment of Financial Regulator.

danman wrote: »

Red M is the only FG person on this site that would convince me now to vote FG.

That's probably because he's the only one of us that's actually FG! :rolleyes: The rest of us are true "floating voters" who detest corruption and incompetence.

I've no interest in convincing you to vote FG; I do have an interest in preventing this country going down the swannee if FF get a whiff that their actions to date are somehow acceptable.

danman wrote: »

I've yet to be called names by the goverment, yet, the opposition supporters seem to think that by calling the Irish electorite stupid, we can be convinced to vote for the opposition.

Ridiculous. Like FF themselves, voters are judged by their actions.

And while I'd stop short at calling someone stupid, voting for FF is a stupid action.......or a vested-interest one, if you've made millions because of their Galway Tent politics.

danman wrote: »

I am a floating voter. Convince me in a civil manner.
There are a number of posters that I've had to put on my ignore list, simply because of the rants and venom.
At this rate, I'll only be able to read posts from FF'ers.

That appears to be all you want to do, to be honest.

I mean, FF lie through their teeth and defend the indefensible, but you don't ignore them ?

Laminations

Just following on from the post about people not accepting evidentiary news articles that document FF mistakes, i.e. the people who still need convincing, here is another interesting piece on changing your beliefs, cos lets face it, it is a belief in FF that we need to challenge.

Although this piece relates to scientific convictions, I think it applies to political convictions also

Changing my view about this hypothesis was hard, and a little embarrassing given I so animatedly communicated it to all my friends until I learnt it didn’t have strong grounding.This is very true of many areas in which we are not experts, whether you are a scientist or not, and the fact is that we do tend to confer a great deal of trust in some individuals depending on their position. I would add that Donald Williamson was not ‘wrong’ to form this hypothesis at that time (just as some voters in the past may not have been wrong to vote FF); scientific knowledge (and political performance) is by its very nature transitory, but once it has been tested (FF have now been adequately tested - and they have failed), and alternatives developed (there are other parties with other policies and standards to vote for), then we should seek to move on (I really wish we could).

jmayo

danman wrote: »

...
I sometimes wish that I hadn't found this site. FG would have had my vote, simply because of what's happened to this country.

Some posters simply rant at every opportunity.

So because some posters/people on this site keep trying to drive home reasons not to vote for ff, you have decided to disregard all of that information and vote for them ?

Maybe some of us rant because we are tired, very tired of the sh** that we have to put up with it and that our kids will have to put up with, thanks to the most incompetent self serving bunch of bast***s that have ever sat in Leinster house ?

danman wrote: »

Looking at right now, I can see a lot of work in the right direction by this government.
It's the fact that that is never mentioned or acknowlaged by posters.

Red M is the only FG person on this site that would convince me now to vote FG.
He seems informed and yet gives credit where it's due.

A lot of this work in the right direction is too damn late, as in the public sector spending cuts which should have been started back in early 2008 when the writing was already on the wall.
And one massive government/ff decision regarding the bank guarantee and nationalisation of Anglo is going to cost us big time for the next two decades or more.
Anything up to 30 billion is going to be waster in Anglo and people complained about spending cuts or 4 billion.

Red_Marauder credits a proposal that according to almost every eminent economist/commentators and non connected vested interest is a crock of sh**, to put it bluntly.
A few, a very few, acknowledge that it is best proposal, but even then some of them view the debt valuation mechanism as suicidal economics.

Did you care to watch Frontline last night and hear the arguments put forward by Brian Lucey ?
If you didn't try and watch the show rather than listen to any of us any NAMAers and then make a decision.

danman wrote: »

If I get called stupid, as the majority of Irish voters have been called on this site, why would we believe the ranters any more than FF.

I've yet to be called names by the goverment, yet, the opposition supporters seem to think that by calling the Irish electorite stupid, we can be convinced to vote for the opposition.

Calm down the lot of you with the rants.

I am a floating voter. Convince me in a civil manner.
There are a number of posters that I've had to put on my ignore list, simply because of the rants and venom.
At this rate, I'll only be able to read posts from FF'ers.

No the government or ff don't call you names, at least not to your face.
But they do probably have a good laugh at you everytime they collect their excessive paycheques or their pensions, everytime they drive off in their chaufeured driven state mercs to yet another taxpayer funded junket.

They also screw you everytime one of their bad decisions causes yet more of your tax money to pi**ed down a hole trying to save a worthless bank.

Do you pay tax ?
If so wouldn't it be nice to know that it goes on things that someday could be useful to you and your family ?
You know things like schools, hospitals, roads, fire stations, gardaí, publi transport, etc.
Wouldn't it be nice to know that your taxes didn't go on the massive payoffs to the likes of roddy molloy, patrick neary or to help service the debts that seanie fitzpatrick can't be ar**ed repaying ?

But shure you find the people (posters here) who question why you would vote for these ffers more offensive than the ffers who are actually screwing you and your family.
If ever you have the misfortune to really sample our public health care system, or if ever your kids have to suffer in the cr** crumbling primary education infrastruture please remember again who you deemed the more offensive.

If I am on your ignore list, well I would just aim these words at any other floating voters that thinks that ff deserve their votes due to fact they aren't all negative.

patmar

Tommy Bateman wrote: »

Ah sure there no good the lot of them, you'd be better off sticking to the old reliables. Sure, boys like Lenny aren't hip and groovy like the celebrity politicians, but they sure as hell get the job done. And sure isn't that what politcs is about at the end of day.

Suspect you are a FF supporter Tommy but at least you are different on what seems to be a full blown ABFF crowd. Was beginning to think I was some kind of weirdo. How come FF supporters are in short supply on politicaL sites ?

patmar

danman wrote: »

Your making a very broad assesment of Patmar.
He said that he isn't a FF'er, but a floating voter.

I'm in the same position as him. I'm not a supporter of any party. I've given my vote to many candidates from most of the parties (bar SF).

I'm also a floating voter.
Myself and Pat are the type of voters that the opposition and the government need to convince.

All I read here by certain posters, is hatred.

It no, no, no.
I read all the opposition, that every word uttered by FF generates.

I've been talking to a number of my friends, a lot of them have come to a similar conclusion.

I'm considering giving FF my number 1 for the first time.

FG would need to buck up, if they want to get into government.
The negitivity is making me sick.

There will be policies that they should oppose, but change the record.
Every day in the Dail, they simply oppose everything.

Remember, a lot of the policies of this present government are coming from the civil service. FF are directing things, as FG would do.

Tell me again how I can be a part of the 25% core FF voters.
That was a very patranising statement. For both me and Patmar.

Thanks Danman, just sent a post to a Tommy Bateman expressing relief that I am not a weirdo and now I spot another person with views different from what appears to be the norm on internet, ABFF only !. With a bit of luck it might happen that enough people come online to these political sites to discuss Ireland and its economy without party bias. I suppose I can dream on

Liam Byrne

patmar wrote: »

With a bit of luck it might happen that enough people come online to these political sites to discuss Ireland and its economy without party bias. I suppose I can dream on

That level of ignorance and dismissive attitude is typical FF.

The REASON there's a "party bias" is BECAUSE OF FF's f**k-ups and deluded arrogance!

What part of that don't FF supporters get ?

Are ye that deluded that ye don't even see that ruining and economy and voting confidence in lying con-men is WRONG ??? :rolleyes:

trapsagenius

jmayo wrote: »

thanks to the most incompetent self serving bunch of bast***s that have ever sat in Leinster house ?

Most incompetent bunch? Ever? I'd strongly disagree with that.There has been many worse administrations in Ireland.

A point I feel I have to make is that many FGers and "floating" voters criticise allegiance to FF.Now the floating voters I don't have a problem with, but I would suggest to the FGers that were it not for party allegiances, FG would never have survived the 1980s, because surely any sane-minded floaters wouldn't have voted for FG after the disastrous administration from 1982 to 1987?It must have only been the diehard FGers that still voted for FG even after a shambolic government.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

surely any sane-minded floaters wouldn't have voted for FG after the disastrous administration from 1982 to 1987?It must have only been the diehard FGers that still voted for FG even after a shambolic government.

OK, so let's assume they may have matched FF for incompetence.

Did they have unopposed "votes of confidence" for any seriously dodgy characters during that time, á la Ahern, O'Donoghue, O'Dea ? Did they add a disowned and disgraced former other-party member to their supporters in that time ?

Because if not, they're still not comparable.

But if so, list away......

Tommy Bateman

Dont be listening to them Fine Gaelers and their putting down Cowen and Lenny, sure their only trying to rob your vote and they'll have ye all forgotten about after the elections up.

Them blueshirts are crafty feckers, sure havent they got half the country fooled and convined at this stage? Not me now I tell you, ive seen through the smokescreen. I tell it like it is and thats all there is to it really. When we kick them greens out of the coalition the economy should be able to pick up even quicker. Sure look at all the damage those carbon and green measures done to the economy. For god sake you can't even bring a donkey down the road to cut a bit of turf for yourself anymore, carbon this carbon that, everything is feckin carbon with them boys. Just be patient, sure we'll having a tough time right now. Its what we do, and not what say that will get us all out of it.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK, so let's assume they may have matched FF for incompetence.

Did they have unopposed "votes of confidence" for any seriously dodgy characters during that time, á la Ahern, O'Donoghue, O'Dea ? Did they add a disowned and disgraced former other-party member to their supporters in that time ?

Because if not, they're still not comparable.

But if so, list away......

Well, its just I think the FG government in the 80s did not match FF for incompetence-they far, far exceeded the current crop.Lets not forget that the current government have had some achievements at least, most notably in NI-that government had practically zero.That is why I think the FG government is worse than the current one-corruption issues notwithstanding.I'm not saying I accept or condone corruption, which is obviously completely wrong-I just am of the opinion that the FG-led government in the 80s was so bad they mask all others for incompetence.