The real Fianna Fáil issue

paddyland

This forum is littered with threads bemoaning the corruption of Fianna Fáil and their dereliction of the nation. In fact there are so many, that it is hard to keep abreast of everything, and catch all the salient points. I want to raise the issue that I think is fundamental to everything, and it stems from a side issue in the thread about Trevor Sargent's resignation.

It is the whole fundamental philosophy of the Fianna Fáil party, and the real day to day effect the existence of that party has on ordinary people, in ways that most people don't even think about.

Fianna Fáil began as a kind of round the houses way for Eamon de Valera to come to power after he led Sinn Féin up a cul de sac. De Valera immediately put in train the machinery by which his party would become an unstoppable force in Irish politics. There is too much to go into, because I want to stay relevant to today. Suffice to say that this country stagnated under years of de Valera government, during which time the entrenchment of that party in every facet of the state was the main consideration, to the detriment of so many important governmental issues of the day.

In fairness to Sean Lemass, he appears to have had a totally different ethos, and was able to pull up a lot of the ground lost under de Valera for so long. But in the background, the carefully placed machinery of de Valera's Fianna Fáil continued to entrench itself.

Jack Lynch seemed to start out well, a gentleman leader of the country, what vision he had for the future I am not too sure, but he had his particularly diverting issues to deal with during the troubles. His legacy, however, is that later in his career, he was the first Fianna Fáil leader to deliver auction house electioneering, the new idea of 'buying' an election. This idea that actual concrete deliverance on promises didn't matter so much as what looked good on the day, and what sounded well on the posters, would be the swill Fianna Fáil would come to live by day to day.

Enter Charles Haughey, and a new era, whereby an ambitious politician would consider shafting members of his own party, began. This was a fundamental new consideration. Ruthlessness, and win at all costs, started to actually have a negative effect on both party politics as well as government of the country. Up to then, Fianna Fáil had loaded the boardrooms and the backrooms with their own people, for purely political advantage. Now, under Haughey, very corrupt and damaging people would be advanced for PERSONAL advantage as well as political.

Bertie Ahern had many years under Charles Haughey to watch and learn. Here was a model, an aspiration. To have the power and prestige and longevity of de Valera, and the ruthlessness and recklessness of Charles Haughey, what could go wrong? Fianna Fáil might have survived had their motivations remained purely political. It was the Haugheys, the Aherns, and the raft of protegees they moved to the forefront, all a new breed of selfishly motivated people, who brought Fianna Fáil to the depths of discredit it enjoys today.

- - - - -

Which brings me to my point. The Fianna Fáil party as we see it today, have moved so far down the Ahern line, that self preservation and power for it's own sake have completely blinded them to any once held idea of political obligation and duty to the state.

While we might blame the collapse of our economy on the disastrous policy decisions of Fianna Fáil through twelve years of squalid greed and waste, in actual fact, the collapse of the economy was a SYMPTOM of Fianna Fáil government. I have no illusion that Fianna Fáil deliberately set out to collapse the country, no more than they might have had it's best interests at heart. No, the fact of the matter is that the economy of the country was never even a consideration.

And it STILL isn't.

Fianna Fáil have no vested interest in either saving or ruining the country further. They are solely absorbed now with issues pertaining to the party itself, and while a healthy economy would be a lot more beneficial to them, the fact that they so obviously have no answers means their efforts are best served scrambling to protect what hold they still have on the institutions and machinery of the state.

You see it in the Dáil on a daily basis. FF ministers sit laughing and smirking, scoring 'points' over the opposition, like the government of the country were nothing more than the sister of the Sam Maguire Cup, to be roared and jeered over, like schoolboys drunk on tribal warfare. Real, fundamental issues of government, pertaining to the livelihoods of the people of this state, are glossed over, excuses made, promises broken, and only a vague, apathetic glance made in that direction. The business of looking after the Friends of Fianna Fáil, the entrenchment of the votes for the next election, and the promotion of safe Fianna Fáil people to any and every position of influence of the land is the only business of the day.

- - - - -

Which brings me to my other point. Look at the heads of every single board and committee and quango in this state. Fianna Fáil people all the way. In the first place, there is a ridiculous amount of superfluous organisations, a creation often purely for the placement of friends and benefactors. Besides the amount of taxpayers money all of this costs, and the according scandal of bonuses and pensions and favours, there is the very real and often detrimental influence the wrong people can wreak in positions of power. At best, there are very important organisations with weak and ineffectual people in place, who are there simply because they can be relied on to say the right thing, to back the right horse. Then there are others who wilfully subvert power for vested interests and financial or political gain. Very little of all of this ever benefits the country, or the ordinary people who dutifully pay their taxes without question, and go home quietly and watch their televisions.

Presently, the extents of this today can be seen when a Fianna Fáil minister can be accused of perjury, the conviction for which can see others land in jail. Yet no action is taken, or even mooted. But when a deputy from another party, even a coalition partner, is accused of improper interference in a court proceeding, immediate calls are made for a police investigation. You want to be up early in the morning to stand against the Fianna Fáil party when they play dirty.

I apologise if this is a lengthy and wordy offering, but perhaps others more eloquent than I can expound the point I am trying to make. The point is, that while the dealing with the problems of the economy is critical for the livelihoods of ordinary people, it needs to go hand in hand with a root and branch examination of the Fianna Fáil party, how it operates, who it promotes, what it's vested interests are, and critically, to what extent the political structures as they exist today are created and maintained for that one party to maintain a devastating grip on every facet of power and influence over this country.

We badly need structural political change, to ensure that no one party or individual can wreak unchallenged influence over any aspect of Irish society, as Fianna Fáil have for decades, from the early years of the state.

Scofflaw

Would it be fair to say that the short version of your post is that this is a close-to-one-party state like Mexico or Japan, where that 'party' is really a broad oligarchic 'movement' that governs the state through clientilism - in other words, that keeps itself in power by handing out the fruits of central power to the local elites who back it, and who in turn operate the same principle at a local level?

cordially,
Scofflaw

paddyland

There you are, I knew someone would manage to be more straight to the point than I...!

One additional point is that Fianna Fáil have created the Fine Gael we know today. Never a party with a spectacular vision of it's own, faced with the might of the Fianna Fáil machine, it is as much as Fine Gael could muster to try to place itself as an alternative party of government, but to exactly the same model, albeit not quite as sharp or as adept at self preservation.

Labour for me stands alone as the only opposition party that do stand apart. It is a pity that they carry the baggage of trade unionism around like a medicine ball, even if that influence has lessened of late.

The fact remains, no matter how many opposition parties we have, or how ineffectual, or how many 'shining new hope' parties spring up in the next few years, it is all for nothing without a root and branch change of our political structures. Fianna Fáil WILL NOT do that. The opposition parties cannot. I fear the impetus for change has to come from outside the political establishment, whether through the media, or what, I don't know.

The only OTHER avenue for change is mobs and pitchforks, and as angry as some of us feel, that way only leads to worse trouble.

Scofflaw

paddyland wrote: »

There you are, I knew someone would manage to be more straight to the point than I...!

One additional point is that Fianna Fáil have created the Fine Gael we know today. Never a party with a spectacular vision of it's own, faced with the might of the Fianna Fáil machine, it is as much as Fine Gael could muster to try to place itself as an alternative party of government, but to exactly the same model, albeit not quite as sharp or as adept at self preservation.

Labour for me stands alone as the only opposition party that do stand apart. It is a pity that they carry the baggage of trade unionism around like a medicine ball, even if that influence has lessened of late.

The fact remains, no matter how many opposition parties we have, or how ineffectual, or how many 'shining new hope' parties spring up in the next few years, it is all for nothing without a root and branch change of our political structures. Fianna Fáil WILL NOT do that. The opposition parties cannot. I fear the impetus for change has to come from outside the political establishment, whether through the media, or what, I don't know.

The only OTHER avenue for change is mobs and pitchforks, and as angry as some of us feel, that way only leads to worse trouble.

As a general rule, dominant parties don't get changed from outside by anything short of a revolution - either constitutional or literal.

From quite an interesting paper on the dissolution of single-party dominance in Malaysia:

Leading theories of transitions from single-party dominant systems begin with economic crisis, the party’s loss of patronage resources, and elite-level defections. The multiparty elections that are then held exert no independent effect, but instead register neutrally the party’s decline and the democratization of politics.

This paper, however, shifts attention from the dominant party to citizens and elections in non-crisis conditions. It argues that on key dimensions citizens assess the dominant party’s legitimacy or worthiness of support. Further, where they grow critical of its policy outputs, they scrutinize more closely its conformity to procedures. And as they anticipate that their voting preferences will be thwarted by electoral manipulations, they vote in protest, perhaps producing a “liberalizing electoral outcome.”

Elections, then, do not simply indicate the dominant party’s decline. By deepening alienation, they help citizens to cause it. Analysis is set in Malaysia, long an exemplar of single party dominance, but recently a case in which the government was dealt a striking electoral setback.

Essentially, the paper suggests two ways in which single-party dominance can be eroded. The traditional model is that of a breakdown in a relationship between the governing party and its supporting elites, where elites defect from the party, taking their quotas of electoral support with them. The model the authors are proposing suggests that change commences instead with the failure of the dominant party to perform in ways that citizens assess as legitimate or at least worthy of support. Elections then deepen this appraisal, their manipulations adding to the grievances of citizens, yet their residual competitiveness still offering a mechanism by which change may begin.

Obviously - leaving aside the question of whether Ireland genuinely suffers any great degree of "electoral manipulation" (I don't think it does) - the most important question is whether we are seeing any fundamental change in Fianna Fáil's command of "patronage resources", or a failure of Fianna Fáil to "perform in ways that citizens assess as legitimate or at least worthy of support".

We have seen a little bit of the former - and, lest we forget, it was the "elite defections" of the PDs that originally broke Fianna Fáil's single grip on power, with the result that they've never held a single-party majority since. We've seen various high-profile Fianna Fáil TDs resign the whip, and in one case actually withdraw their support from the government - but most of those who have withdrawn have adopted a relatively neutral "wait and see" policy, with an eye to getting back on board if things pick up.

Have we seen enough of the latter? I think it's possible - or, rather, and rather more gloomily, it was possible, up until Brian Lenihan came to dominate the scene rather than Brian Cowen, and up to the point where Fine Gael somehow managed to remind us that they are, as you say, a mirror image of Fianna Fáil - another party of oligarchy waiting their turn at the trough of patronage. I'm not sure exactly how they managed to remind us of it - but I suspect George Lee had something to with it. When your only apparent option is to elect Tweedledum instead of Tweedledee, the fires of electoral change tend to burn low. Fine Gael are so clearly just an party of alternative patronage that they don't offer any hope of changing the system, only the management of the system - and as long as people aren't changing the system, traditional tribal loyalties come into play.

The more I look at Fianna Fáil and their opponents, and the swings and roundabouts of the public's humour, and the more I talk to quite respectable and intelligent people only to discover that they're dyed in the wool Fianna Fáil stalwarts, the more I'm forced to recognise that Fianna Fáil is far from on its last legs. Some of the seats regained since the disastrous 1992 election have fluttered away temporarily, but chances are that they'll be back.

I don't honestly think we're even at the point now we were in in 1992, when there really wasn't anything for the voters to lose by trying to overturn the system, and both major parties suffered losses (FF -9, FG -10). People still have the perception of there being a lot to lose, and as long as that's the case, the voters will not vote to overturn the system. We can only "hope", therefore, that the economy tanks to the point where elite defections and loss of patronage resources are sufficient to damage Fianna Fáil in the traditional way - but recent history has shown that the party can, and does, recover from such losses, as does Fine Gael, given that there is, as there has been for the last 15 years, sufficient gravy to run the respective patronage trains.

If the gravy not only runs out, but the Irish electorate feels it has little or nothing to lose by voting against the system, then we might see real electoral change in Ireland, but not before. Only an election that is so destructive of both main parties as to make them equally unable to command patronage within any possible government coalition can break the grip of the current system, and the only thing that will induce such a result is desperation - and the Irish electorate is still a long way from desperate.

cordially,
if a little cynically,
Scofflaw

scr123

Paddyland,
Am amazed that someone so articulate can sit down and write such a hate filled piece of begrudgery. Using 2007 election figures 20% of the population voted FF. 25% of the electorate voted FF which obviously means 75% did not. What went wrong with you people who detest FF ?
The opposition have not won an election since 1982
The opposition have lost the last 6 elections in a row
And you blame FF for the failures of the opposition ?

The odds are stacked against FF
The odds are even more stacked against FF because of the economic downturn
There is a growing hatred of FF around the country. There are lunatics engaged in incitement to hate and want to take to the streets.

Ask these people who hate FF why they have failed to oust FF and they get irritated
Ask them what they would have done for the country and what they will do to solve the problems and they become aggressive
Sneering and smearing FF is a national pastime and something any fool can do
Asking them to explain their own failures in the past and their future ideas for the country is a waste of time because they shirk exposing more of their failures. They are happy to scapegoat FF and one can only describe this as a chronic addiction to hatred of FF

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

They are happy to scapegoat FF and one can only describe this as a chronic addiction to hatred of FF

Since when is it "scapegoating" to point out the FACTS of their track record ?

Since when is it "scapegoating" to point out how they've circled the wagons around their corrupt members, showering votes of confidence and eulogies on the likes of Haughey, Ahern, Burke, Lawlor, O'Donoghue, O'Dea ?

I think that's the biggest problem within FF.......if they screw up, then it's our fault.

The fact is that if they EVEN ONCE showed true ethics and got rid of the cancer in their midst, we might start to believe that they'd changed.

But since they don't - as demonstrated as recently as last week - then we're 100% entitled to judge them based on that.

There is no "chronic addiction to hatred of FF"; there's a justifiable hatred of incompetence and corruption, and it's within FF's own hands to disassociate itself from that.

And one other itsy, bitsy, tiny, weeny point

scr123 wrote: »

The odds are even more stacked against FF because of the economic downturn....

.......which they made a million times worse than it should have been.

Red_Marauder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Originally Posted by scr123
The odds are even more stacked against FF because of the economic downturn....

.......which they made a million times worse than it should have been.

A million times eh? Is our domestic structural defecit a million times worse than the downward trend internationally? Really?

Sleepy

scr123 wrote: »

Paddyland,
Am amazed that someone so articulate can sit down and write such a hate filled piece of begrudgery. Using 2007 election figures 20% of the population voted FF. 25% of the electorate voted FF which obviously means 75% did not.

And what percentage of that 75% did not vote at all?

What went wrong with you people who detest FF ?
The opposition have not won an election since 1982
The opposition have lost the last 6 elections in a row
And you blame FF for the failures of the opposition ?

I'd blame FF for the state the country is in and opposition for not capitalising upon that.

The odds are stacked against FF

How do you make this out when they have the largest amount of blind voters of any party? I'm not saying that Fine Gael, Labour and Sinn Fein don't have blind voters who'd vote for them regardless either but FF's key support is highest.

The odds are even more stacked against FF because of the economic downturn

I'd say falls in popularity are less due to the global economic downturn than to do with their ensuring that even if the sub-prime problems hadn't happened, we'd still be in the gutter due to their mis-management of our economy and the property bubble they helped create.

There is a growing hatred of FF around the country. There are lunatics engaged in incitement to hate and want to take to the streets.

Nothing wrong with hatred of a political party when it's justified imho. It's a damn shame the people of this country WON'T take to the streets tbh.

Ask these people who hate FF why they have failed to oust FF and they get irritated
Ask them what they would have done for the country and what they will do to solve the problems and they become aggressive
Sneering and smearing FF is a national pastime and something any fool can do
Asking them to explain their own failures in the past and their future ideas for the country is a waste of time because they shirk exposing more of their failures. They are happy to scapegoat FF and one can only describe this as a chronic addiction to hatred of FF

I've posted on this before as someone who, legitimately imho, hates the FF party: the electoral system is probably the largest problem this country faces. Combine this with the difficulty in establishing a new party when the incumbants have such large blocks of supporters with blind allegiance and the improbability of any new party garnering enough votes to even make up a substantial part of the opposition (never mind government) and it leaves very few outlets for those of us with an interest in seeing things done properly to pursue.

Being the most elected party out of a number of useless parties does not make FF a competent group to run a country.

For an allegation to be a "smear" it implies that the person or body being attacked has an untarnished reputation prior to that and that the allegation is untrue.

When the person/group's reputation is in the gutter already and the allegations are based in the facts of that person/groups actions there's no smear. You can't smear a turd any more than you can polish it.

scr123

Liam Byrne and Sleepy

You have both proven beyond a shadow of doubt that people like you have nothing to offer but a chronic hatred of FF

There is a similar site to this called politics.ie full of people with the same juvenile and immature attitude

Both of you have made no effort to address the shocking failures of the opposition over the last 28 years. Blaming FF for failure to win an election since 1982 and losing the last 6 elections in a row is pathetic.

Refusing to state what you would have done in the absence of FF over the same period is pathetic

Refusing to state what solutions you have for the future is pathetic

If you people think smearing and sneering at FF will be enough to win the next election you you are sadly mistaken. You have done that forever and the people have rejected you

Take a break from slagging FF and have a good look at yourselves. Test the courage of your convictions by explaining your failures and indicating why you are the better team to restore the economy of the country

Scofflaw

scr123 wrote: »

Liam Byrne and Sleepy

You have both proven beyond a shadow of doubt that people like you have nothing to offer but a chronic hatred of FF

There is a similar site to this called politics.ie full of people with the same juvenile and immature attitude

Both of you have made no effort to address the shocking failures of the opposition over the last 28 years. Blaming FF for failure to win an election since 1982 and losing the last 6 elections in a row is pathetic.

Refusing to state what you would have done in the absence of FF over the same period is pathetic

Refusing to state what solutions you have for the future is pathetic

If you people think smearing and sneering at FF will be enough to win the next election you you are sadly mistaken. You have done that forever and the people have rejected you

Take a break from slagging FF and have a good look at yourselves. Test the courage of your convictions by explaining your failures and indicating why you are the better team to restore the economy of the country

We can do without the personalisation of the discussion, please. One of the main distinctions between here and certain other political forums is that we don't allow political discussion to be unacceptably personal. Neither Liam Byrne nor Sleepy are official representatives of any political party.

moderately,
Scofflaw

scr123

Scofflaw wrote: »

As a general rule, dominant parties don't get changed from outside by anything short of a revolution - either constitutional or literal.

From quite an interesting paper on the dissolution of single-party dominance in Malaysia:



Essentially, the paper suggests two ways in which single-party dominance can be eroded. The traditional model is that of a breakdown in a relationship between the governing party and its supporting elites, where elites defect from the party, taking their quotas of electoral support with them. The model the authors are proposing suggests that change commences instead with the failure of the dominant party to perform in ways that citizens assess as legitimate or at least worthy of support. Elections then deepen this appraisal, their manipulations adding to the grievances of citizens, yet their residual competitiveness still offering a mechanism by which change may begin.

Obviously - leaving aside the question of whether Ireland genuinely suffers any great degree of "electoral manipulation" (I don't think it does) - the most important question is whether we are seeing any fundamental change in Fianna Fáil's command of "patronage resources", or a failure of Fianna Fáil to "perform in ways that citizens assess as legitimate or at least worthy of support".

We have seen a little bit of the former - and, lest we forget, it was the "elite defections" of the PDs that originally broke Fianna Fáil's single grip on power, with the result that they've never held a single-party majority since. We've seen various high-profile Fianna Fáil TDs resign the whip, and in one case actually withdraw their support from the government - but most of those who have withdrawn have adopted a relatively neutral "wait and see" policy, with an eye to getting back on board if things pick up.

Have we seen enough of the latter? I think it's possible - or, rather, and rather more gloomily, it was possible, up until Brian Lenihan came to dominate the scene rather than Brian Cowen, and up to the point where Fine Gael somehow managed to remind us that they are, as you say, a mirror image of Fianna Fáil - another party of oligarchy waiting their turn at the trough of patronage. I'm not sure exactly how they managed to remind us of it - but I suspect George Lee had something to with it. When your only apparent option is to elect Tweedledum instead of Tweedledee, the fires of electoral change tend to burn low. Fine Gael are so clearly just an party of alternative patronage that they don't offer any hope of changing the system, only the management of the system - and as long as people aren't changing the system, traditional tribal loyalties come into play.

The more I look at Fianna Fáil and their opponents, and the swings and roundabouts of the public's humour, and the more I talk to quite respectable and intelligent people only to discover that they're dyed in the wool Fianna Fáil stalwarts, the more I'm forced to recognise that Fianna Fáil is far from on its last legs. Some of the seats regained since the disastrous 1992 election have fluttered away temporarily, but chances are that they'll be back.

I don't honestly think we're even at the point now we were in in 1992, when there really wasn't anything for the voters to lose by trying to overturn the system, and both major parties suffered losses (FF -9, FG -10). People still have the perception of there being a lot to lose, and as long as that's the case, the voters will not vote to overturn the system. We can only "hope", therefore, that the economy tanks to the point where elite defections and loss of patronage resources are sufficient to damage Fianna Fáil in the traditional way - but recent history has shown that the party can, and does, recover from such losses, as does Fine Gael, given that there is, as there has been for the last 15 years, sufficient gravy to run the respective patronage trains.

If the gravy not only runs out, but the Irish electorate feels it has little or nothing to lose by voting against the system, then we might see real electoral change in Ireland, but not before. Only an election that is so destructive of both main parties as to make them equally unable to command patronage within any possible government coalition can break the grip of the current system, and the only thing that will induce such a result is desperation - and the Irish electorate is still a long way from desperate.

cordially,
if a little cynically,
Scofflaw

Small point. In 1977 election FF won an incredible 22 seat majority after serious gerrymandering by the incumbent government backfired. In 1979 the FF government legislated for an independent commission to draw up constituency boundaries. It was this action that made it extremely difficult for FF to win an overall majority thereafter and nothing to do with PD's or defections from FF

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Neither Liam Byrne nor Sleepy are official representatives of any political party.

Thanks, Scofflaw.

And hopefully it's OK to point out that I'm not even a member of any politicial party ?

While I know that this will lead some people to say "well why not - get more involved and make a case for change", I'm just saying it in order to point out that absolutely nothing that I've ever posted here has been political point-scoring....it's purely opinion and judgement on the actions of the parties themselves, and is 100% neutral until such point as those parties screw up badly or condone the indefensible.

FF - [too many links to*] corruption and incompetence
FG - far too quiet - e.g. on the O'Donoghue scandal - for my liking
Labour - Gilmore and Rabbitte are both almost flawless in every aspect of talking common-sense and saying what needs to be said, when it needs to be said, but the party overall is too cosy with the unions for my liking

So of the 3 main parties, that's why I haven't joined any.

*Legal caveat

hinault

I have never voted Fianna Fail and I have voted in every election since 1980.

It really is simple.
If you don't want FF in power, then don't vote for them.

I listen to so many people complaining about FF, for years, yet people continue to vote for them.

Can't understand it.

scr123

If I sit down and write a piece explaining why I totally disagree with every political party and every independent political leaning and not mention FF the immediate reaction would be an avalanche of replies condemning FF as the cause of every problem this country ever had. Is it safe to say any reasonable person would agree with that ?
Now, if I ask the opposition to FF to answer a few questions like

1 Why is it the opposition have not won an election since 1982
2 Why is it the opposition have failed to win the last 6 elections
3 What would the opposition have done that was different than FF
4 What will the opposition do that will correct the problems they allege FF created

Isnt it reasonable to expect honest replies ?

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

Isnt it reasonable to expect honest replies ?

I genuinely don't want to inflame the discussion, but given your earlier jump-to-conclusions it appears that you are incapable of viewing criticism of FF at face value, instead assuming that it is an agenda or political point-scoring.

If FF actually took objective comments on board without making this jump, then we might all be better off.

But regarding answers (and like I said, I can't speak for any opposition party), isn't it reasonable to want accountability ? Isn't it reasonable to want someone fired if we're paying them €3,000 a day as a minister and they can't do their job ?

Isn't it reasonable to want someone who has been found out to be corrupt to be expelled, and not voted unanimously as confidence ?

I've said it a million times - if FF start ridding themselves of the Haugheys, Aherns, Burkes, Lawlors, O'Donoghues and O'Deas of this world, then maybe we'll accept that they have suddenly developed ethics and a sense of fairness and justice.

But for as long as they unanimously vote "confidence" and defend these scheisters, then the whole party gets tainted.

fontanalis

scr123 wrote: »

Liam Byrne and Sleepy

You have both proven beyond a shadow of doubt that people like you have nothing to offer but a chronic hatred of FF

There is a similar site to this called politics.ie full of people with the same juvenile and immature attitude

Both of you have made no effort to address the shocking failures of the opposition over the last 28 years. Blaming FF for failure to win an election since 1982 and losing the last 6 elections in a row is pathetic.

Refusing to state what you would have done in the absence of FF over the same period is pathetic

Refusing to state what solutions you have for the future is pathetic

If you people think smearing and sneering at FF will be enough to win the next election you you are sadly mistaken. You have done that forever and the people have rejected you

Take a break from slagging FF and have a good look at yourselves. Test the courage of your convictions by explaining your failures and indicating why you are the better team to restore the economy of the country

I'm sorry but you represent everything that is wrong with Ireland, complete blind and illogical faith to some "party" made up of gombeens beyond Bernard Mannings wildenst dreams.

Scofflaw

hinault wrote: »

I have never voted Fianna Fail and I have voted in every election since 1980.

It really is simple.
If you don't want FF in power, then don't vote for them.

I listen to so many people complaining about FF, for years, yet people continue to vote for them.

Can't understand it.

See the earlier points about single party dominance. People may complain, but Fianna Fáil has to literally put itself out of serious consideration as a party of government before people will stop voting for it. It's like an employer - the employees may grumble, but unless the employer really makes it obvious you'd have to be insane to work for them, most people will stick with what they know.

What most people want from government - what most people have ever wanted from government - is that tomorrow be pretty much the same as today and yesterday.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hinault

Scofflaw wrote: »

See the earlier points about single party dominance. People may complain, but Fianna Fáil has to literally put itself out of serious consideration as a party of government before people will stop voting for it. It's like an employer - the employees may grumble, but unless the employer really makes it obvious you'd have to be insane to work for them, most people will stick with what they know.

What most people want from government - what most people have ever wanted from government - is that tomorrow be pretty much the same as today and yesterday.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Indeed.

So when people complain about FF, they're really complaining about themselves.

As I said earlier, I have never voted FF (and I would have been raised in an FF household) because it was my view that Haughey was a crook.
And the subsequent FF leaderships are a variation on the Haughey theme.

If the majority are prepared to tolerate FF, then so be it.

It is my view that many people who carp about FF, actually tacitly support FF in reality.

Liam Byrne

hinault wrote: »

So when people complain about FF, they're really complaining about themselves.

As I said earlier, I have never voted FF

So you'd be what - complaining about yourself ?

hinault wrote: »

It is my view that many people who carp about FF, actually tacitly support FF in reality.

I carp about their actions, but I wouldn't - and haven't - supported them since O'Malley showed Haughey to be the crook that you mentioned.

Laminations

scr123 wrote: »

1 Why is it the opposition have not won an election since 1982

Becuse of people like you well to try and keep it impersonal, because of the 25% die hard FF voters

scr123 wrote: »

2 Why is it the opposition have failed to win the last 6 elections

because of the 25% die hard FF voters and others not seeing through FFs short term game of promising the world to buy an election

scr123 wrote: »

3 What would the opposition have done that was different than FF

We'll never know, they weren't in power, they could have done worse, they could have done better - its hypothetical. FFs mismanagement while in power is not hypothetical,

scr123 wrote: »

4 What will the opposition do that will correct the problems they allege FF created

So you dont even accept FF have done wrong?
NAMA would not exist, they have other plans.
New Era, FairCare, jobs stimulus packages, lower tolerance for corruption...
Maybe its just the case that even if they had the exact same plan for recovery as FF people would be more willing to take the pain from a new government rather than the party that led us in to this mess. I know thats the case for me.

scr123 wrote: »

Isnt it reasonable to expect honest replies ?

There is little point replying to a man with his fingers in his ears

Scofflaw

hinault wrote: »

Indeed.

So when people complain about FF, they're really complaining about themselves.

As I said earlier, I have never voted FF (and I would have been raised in an FF household) because it was my view that Haughey was a crook.
And the subsequent FF leaderships are a variation on the Haughey theme.

If the majority are prepared to tolerate FF, then so be it.

It is my view that many people who carp about FF, actually tacitly support FF in reality.

Out of interest, can you bring yourself to vote Fine Gael? I know a couple of people who come from Fianna Fáil families, and while they won't vote Fianna Fáil, they can't bring themselves to vote for Fine Gael.

Obviously, you're welcome to tell me to mind my own business!

cordially,
Scofflaw

FlashGordon1969

This country has largely been an economic failure bar two decades-the 1960's and 1990's. Yes, Fianna fail were in power those two decades but they were also in power the other disastrous decades. This nation has just limped on and on exporting it's children and you still have political morons voting Fianna Fail again and again. I'm beginning to think Fascism or some form of dictatorship is the only way.

I will hold these views in check until after the next election but if Fianna Fail come back with any amount of seats over early 60s then Im all for the strong man approach.

hinault

Scofflaw wrote: »

Out of interest, can you bring yourself to vote Fine Gael? I know a couple of people who come from Fianna Fáil families, and while they won't vote Fianna Fáil, they can't bring themselves to vote for Fine Gael.

Obviously, you're welcome to tell me to mind my own business!

cordially,
Scofflaw

I won't tell you to mind your own business.

In 1981, I voted for John O Connell (Independent).
In 1982, I voted for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In late 1982, I voted again for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In 1987, I voted again for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In 1989, 1992, 1997 and 2002, I voted for Gay Mitchell (FG)

In 2003, I moved to Thurles.

I voted for Noel Coonan (FG) in 2007.

anymore

scr123 wrote: »

Paddyland,
.
The odds are stacked against FF
The odds are even more stacked against FF because of the economic downturn
There is a growing hatred of FF around the country. There are lunatics engaged in incitement to hate and want to take to the streets.

..PLEASE GET ME OUT OF HERE - I'M A VICTIM :eek:

Sleepy

scr123 wrote: »

Liam Byrne and Sleepy

You have both proven beyond a shadow of doubt that people like you have nothing to offer but a chronic hatred of FF

I have nothing to offer Fianna Fail but hatred because I'm legally not allowed to take it further than that. I can, and do, offer plenty to others where I can see my time being useful to them (I've volunteered with both charities and clubs / societies).

There is a similar site to this called politics.ie full of people with the same juvenile and immature attitude

If everyone else is in agreement against you, isn't it possible that you're wrong?

Both of you have made no effort to address the shocking failures of the opposition over the last 28 years. Blaming FF for failure to win an election since 1982 and losing the last 6 elections in a row is pathetic.

I'm a member of no political party and would have though that was obvious to even a semi-literate person reading my last post. I've never run, nor supported a person running for election and tbh, I wouldn't have been much use to anyone in 1982 since I'd have been all of 2 years old... The saddest state of affairs is that there's never been a candidate running in any of the constituencies I've lived in during my adult life who was worth supporting.

Refusing to state what you would have done in the absence of FF over the same period is pathetic

My knowledge of politics and the economy really only stretches back about a decade but I knew enought to know that Haughey was a criminal long before he was exposed as such, that the property market was a bubble and that a tent on a racecourse in Galway with a pint in hand is no place to run a country from...

Refusing to state what solutions you have for the future is pathetic

Again, I outlined the main source of our problems in my post - our electoral system. Obviously enough, this means I'd change our electoral system - certainly to one based on larger constituencies with less deputies being returned; most likely to a unicameral parliament and replacing PR-STV with some form of list system. Executions being illegal, I'd also lock up most of the Fianna Fail party for Treason.

If you people think smearing and sneering at FF will be enough to win the next election you you are sadly mistaken. You have done that forever and the people have rejected you

Again, read the post before trying to reply to it. I've never been rejected by the people because I've never run for a position. I've never run because I'm neither rich, famous nor prepared to lick the boots of a scumbag like Bertie Ahern for long enough to get a shot at the unvouched expenses trough.

Take a break from slagging FF and have a good look at yourselves. Test the courage of your convictions by explaining your failures and indicating why you are the better team to restore the economy of the country

It'd take a cull amounting to a reversed decimation and an apology to the nation before I'd consider removing FF from below Sinn Fein (who I consider murders and apologists for murderers) on my ballot sheet, never mind stop pointing out their shortcomings & corruption.

TBH, I probably will be voting for the party you've assumed I'm a member of. Not because I think they're any good tbh. They just couldn't possibly be as fvcking incompetent as your lot and seem far more honest.

Laminations

I just watched the Mary Coughlan HardTalk interview on another thread. Here is the 3rd part of it.

A few mistruths from her.

• We all overspent and are to blame (she skirted over the corruption question)
• We are no worse off than any other country
• FF policy has not exacerbated our fall (absolutely no repentence here, like Bertie)
• We should be grateful for our situation (compared to the poorest countries in the world...I suppose this is true but its a fallacious point, by that logic they could have done far worse to the country and we'd still be better off than say Haiti) This is the same as comparing our standard of living now to our standard of living in the 80s, it ignores the lost potential - anyone know the name of this fallaciou argument?
• Emmigation is a choice, even suggesting a lot of young people are going abroad for fun! Emmigration is something the FF government have afforded the young.

The sheer lack of acceptance of blame is what gets me most.

Scofflaw

hinault wrote: »

I won't tell you to mind your own business.

In 1981, I voted for John O Connell (Independent).
In 1982, I voted for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In late 1982, I voted again for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In 1987, I voted again for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In 1989, 1992, 1997 and 2002, I voted for Gay Mitchell (FG)

In 2003, I moved to Thurles.

I voted for Noel Coonan (FG) in 2007.

Thanks - so people can be cured!

cordially,
Scofflaw

jmayo

scr123 wrote: »

Small point. In 1977 election FF won an incredible 22 seat majority after serious gerrymandering by the incumbent government backfired. In 1979 the FF government legislated for an independent commission to draw up constituency boundaries. It was this action that made it extremely difficult for FF to win an overall majority thereafter and nothing to do with PD's or defections from FF

You are one of only two ff posters around here who have ever dragged this one up and that was another recent member to the site ?

So you never answered if it was ok for lynch to buy that election, go on to sink the country and cause huge problems for local councils to this day because of the removal of residenital rates ?

I think the defection of senior party members taking with them their seats and supporters did have an affect on the ability of ff to get single party government.
Also maybe more voters started getting a bit more copped on to the ff party ?

scr123 wrote: »

If I sit down and write a piece explaining why I totally disagree with every political party and every independent political leaning and not mention FF the immediate reaction would be an avalanche of replies condemning FF as the cause of every problem this country ever had. Is it safe to say any reasonable person would agree with that ?
Now, if I ask the opposition to FF to answer a few questions like

1 Why is it the opposition have not won an election since 1982
2 Why is it the opposition have failed to win the last 6 elections
3 What would the opposition have done that was different than FF
4 What will the opposition do that will correct the problems they allege FF created

Isnt it reasonable to expect honest replies ?

I see you have the same grasp of facts as willie o'dea.

There is no need to allege, it is fact that ff created most of the problems we now face.
All of the following is down to government policies or lack of them:

• High male unemployment due to over reliance on construction industry to detriment of all other industries.
• massive house price increases pushing all costs higher thus meaning loss of international competitiveness.
• banking infrastructure meltdown because there was little or no regulation, by state controlled regulatory authorities, of the banking industry, becuase it provided the cheap credit to keep the construction bubble going.
• no damping of construction bubble, but rather stoking of it by allowing investor and speculator tax incentives continue.
• increased public sector spending based on construction and retail related transactional taxes for little or no increases in productivity or services.
• decreased public sector responsibility much like their political masters.

After all as you keep reminding us all, they were the primary party in power for the last 13 years continously and for most of the last 30 odd years.
They were the ones making the decisions and no matter how much you might claim the opposition might have done no better, it doesn't matter because they didn't do it.
It is your party of inept chancers that did it.
We can play what ifs till the cows come home but it still won't change the facts.

As paddyland quiet sensibly mentioned in his opening post, ff have done huge damage to this country.
And it is not just limited to the shell of an eocnomy they have left us with.
FFS it took years of hard work to get us out of the mess created late in the 70s and into the 80s.
All the strides this country made forward through our investment in education and smart corporate tax incentives were brought to nought by the short term nest feathering displayed thorughout the cosy relationship between ff hierarchy, bankers and developers during the construciton bubble.

But let us not forget even during the boom the damage done to the body politic by the relevations not alone about ex ff ministers, but sitting ministers and the sitting Taoiseach.

They have managed to drag not alone their own party and politicans into the gutter, but also those of every other party.
Rather than admit their own corruption and unethical behaviour, they use mouth pieces like you to speread the word that all parties are as bad.

People have become so disillusioned with politics that we now stand at a crossroads.
The only saving grace is it is not 1969/1970, because the chance of an actual uprising or coup during those very troubled times would be very real.

trapsagenius

jmayo wrote: »

You are one of only two ff posters around here who have ever dragged this one upand that was another recent member to the site ?

So you never answered if it was ok for lynch to buy that election, go on to sink the country and cause huge problems for local councils to this day because of the removal of residenital rates ?

I assume you are referring to me when you talk about a FFer referring the tullymander, as I did it recently.If you weren't, you can ignore this, but if you were, you should have also mentioned that I have criticised lynch for the 1977 manifesto and its subsequent implementation.

As for that question about whether FFers would ever be able to vote for FG-its an interesting question.Honestly, and I know people mightn't believe me, if Bruton was leader I would seriously consider it, but I could never vote for FG under Kenny.The man does not impress me at all, I'm afraid.I am a FFer, I'm not ashamed to admit it, but I'm not as blind as some and I think O'Deas actions were an absolute disgrace.Also it probably is time for a change-look at the history of any country and you'll see that a party rarely does well in government if it is in power for more than 12, 13 years or so-the party simply becomes stale.

paddyland

jmayo wrote: »

But let us not forget even during the boom the damage done to the body politic by the relevations not alone about ex ff ministers, but sitting ministers and the sitting Taoiseach.

I am delighted to read the very eloquent responses to this thread, they dissect the very issues I hoped would be raised.

This should not be taken as just another idle anti-FF rant. It is intended to look far wider than that. It is very easy to hate Fianna Fáil for the collapse of the economy today, and the horrors visited on ordinary people through negative equity, default of mortgages, unemployment, etc. And as some posters elsewhere rightly point out, the public themselves have a lot to answer for. But there is a much wider issue.

I want to know how one political party have managed, over decades, to engineer a situation where they have gained an almost unbreachable stranglehold on politics and power for themselves. I want to know how they have used that power to infiltrate every facet of the machinery of this state to a point beyond any reasonable understanding of democracy (Where is the outstanding Donegal by-election, for example?) and how this country has suffered due to their subversion of the state into an almost oligarchical entity (to use Scofflaw's description) with the sole purpose of self preservation and self promotion. As I mentioned earlier, this economic catastrophe is one SYMPTOM of that, just one single issue, albeit a thumping great one. But the wider issue is the propensity for a pattern of unreasonable and unsustainable boom, followed by devastating bust, and all the while the corruption carries on, through good times and bad. The cycle needs to be broken. I hope now is the time to be able to demonstrate to people just how destructive this formula is, and how root and branch change is critical to get out of it.

Scr123 makes a valid point:

scr123 wrote: »

1 Why is it the opposition have not won an election since 1982
2 Why is it the opposition have failed to win the last 6 elections
3 What would the opposition have done that was different than FF
4 What will the opposition do that will correct the problems they allege FF created

To answer the first three questions, look at the last three elections, to take that example. They were a charade. Each election was a shameless auction, with all sides making rash and ill considered promises that they had no hope of sustaining, nor even cared about. This party will cut taxes. That party will cut taxes a bit more. What did that ever have to do with any long term economic plan for the country? Zero tolerance was an out and out lie. But that must have bought a few votes too. Much of the general public were very apathetic about who they voted for. A prime example of that is the low overall turnout for the elections.

Why are you voting for the TD who fast tracked your passport application, for example? If you are entitled to a passport, you should get it, you shouldn't need a TD to get it for you. And if there's a queue, you shouldn't be jumping it. And if you're NOT entitled to a passport, then your TD has no business interfering. All it does is waste man hours and money better spent on schools and hospitals.

Scofflaw phrases it nicely:

Scofflaw wrote: »

What most people want from government - what most people have ever wanted from government - is that tomorrow be pretty much the same as today and yesterday.

But what happens when your friendly local political party tells you that you that tomorrow can be twice as good as today, and the next day ten times better, and that this time next year, you will be driving a flash new car, with a holiday home in the sun, and living off the rental income of properties bought under our tax incentives? Of course it is premium grade snake oil, and a little bit of the corner of your brain tells you so, but your friendly local political party certainly don't suggest that there is a long term economic view to take too, oh no, don't spoil the party, we're all having too much fun. Look how well off your FF voting neighbour is. You could be having that too.

Fine Gael had their own brand of snake oil as well, but Fianna Fáil had the good stuff. In fact it didn't make any difference, it didn't matter whose snake oil it was really, Fianna Fáil were just better adept at spinning yarns. They had their secret weapon. Bertie! And nobody really cared anyway. They care NOW. But the damage is done.

To answer scr123's fourth question, what would the opposition do that FF cannot do? That is not the issue. I have no idea who has the answers to the current crisis, because I don't believe any of the parties themselves have any definitive answers. And even if they had, they might as well promise the white witch and her magic beans, I would find it just as credible. If anyone gets us through this economic crisis, it will be the ordinary hard working people, the business sector, people doing it for themselves, DESPITE any of the political parties.

We need to stop this destructive cycle. We need politics to return where it belongs, to LEADERSHIP, to VISION, to TRANSPARENCY, to GOVERNMENT for the COUNTRY rather than government for one vested interest group. If you are tired, if you are spent, if you have no further ideas, MOVE THE HELL ASIDE, and learn the lesson of de Valera, who hung on for years after he was ever any good for anyone, simply out of blind(!) presumption of the right of office despite the inconvenience of democracy or the irritant of anyone else's viewpoint.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

P.S. I spent a whole hour in bed composing a response to this thread, and was very pleased with it. After a quick reread, I was almost ready to hit SUBMIT, when my computer knocked itself off in preparation for a download of Microsoft updates. I lost everything.

To the people in Microsoft who invented the idea of updates that download themselves automatically at just the wrong moment, whether I want them or not, a plague on your houses, I hope your tiny willies fall off, and may you die roaring.

Colm R

hinault wrote: »

I won't tell you to mind your own business.

In 1981, I voted for John O Connell (Independent).
In 1982, I voted for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In late 1982, I voted again for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In 1987, I voted again for Frank Cluskey (Labour).
In 1989, 1992, 1997 and 2002, I voted for Gay Mitchell (FG)

In 2003, I moved to Thurles.

I voted for Noel Coonan (FG) in 2007.

It would be funny if after you moved to Thurles, you said,

I voted for Michael Lowry (Independent)

scr123

paddyland wrote: »

I am delighted to read the very eloquent responses to this thread, they dissect the very issues I hoped would be raised.

This should not be taken as just another idle anti-FF rant. It is intended to look far wider than that. It is very easy to hate Fianna Fáil for the collapse of the economy today, and the horrors visited on ordinary people through negative equity, default of mortgages, unemployment, etc. And as some posters elsewhere rightly point out, the public themselves have a lot to answer for. But there is a much wider issue.

I want to know how one political party have managed, over decades, to engineer a situation where they have gained an almost unbreachable stranglehold on politics and power for themselves. I want to know how they have used that power to infiltrate every facet of the machinery of this state to a point beyond any reasonable understanding of democracy (Where is the outstanding Donegal by-election, for example?) and how this country has suffered due to their subversion of the state into an almost oligarchical entity (to use Scofflaw's description) with the sole purpose of self preservation and self promotion. As I mentioned earlier, this economic catastrophe is one SYMPTOM of that, just one single issue, albeit a thumping great one. But the wider issue is the propensity for a pattern of unreasonable and unsustainable boom, followed by devastating bust, and all the while the corruption carries on, through good times and bad. The cycle needs to be broken. I hope now is the time to be able to demonstrate to people just how destructive this formula is, and how root and branch change is critical to get out of it.

Scr123 makes a valid point:

To answer the first three questions, look at the last three elections, to take that example. They were a charade. Each election was a shameless auction, with all sides making rash and ill considered promises that they had no hope of sustaining, nor even cared about. This party will cut taxes. That party will cut taxes a bit more. What did that ever have to do with any long term economic plan for the country? Zero tolerance was an out and out lie. But that must have bought a few votes too. Much of the general public were very apathetic about who they voted for. A prime example of that is the low overall turnout for the elections.

Why are you voting for the TD who fast tracked your passport application, for example? If you are entitled to a passport, you should get it, you shouldn't need a TD to get it for you. And if there's a queue, you shouldn't be jumping it. And if you're NOT entitled to a passport, then your TD has no business interfering. All it does is waste man hours and money better spent on schools and hospitals.

Scofflaw phrases it nicely:

But what happens when your friendly local political party tells you that you that tomorrow can be twice as good as today, and the next day ten times better, and that this time next year, you will be driving a flash new car, with a holiday home in the sun, and living off the rental income of properties bought under our tax incentives? Of course it is premium grade snake oil, and a little bit of the corner of your brain tells you so, but your friendly local political party certainly don't suggest that there is a long term economic view to take too, oh no, don't spoil the party, we're all having too much fun. Look how well off your FF voting neighbour is. You could be having that too.

Fine Gael had their own brand of snake oil as well, but Fianna Fáil had the good stuff. In fact it didn't make any difference, it didn't matter whose snake oil it was really, Fianna Fáil were just better adept at spinning yarns. They had their secret weapon. Bertie! And nobody really cared anyway. They care NOW. But the damage is done.

To answer scr123's fourth question, what would the opposition do that FF cannot do? That is not the issue. I have no idea who has the answers to the current crisis, because I don't believe any of the parties themselves have any definitive answers. And even if they had, they might as well promise the white witch and her magic beans, I would find it just as credible. If anyone gets us through this economic crisis, it will be the ordinary hard working people, the business sector, people doing it for themselves, DESPITE any of the political parties.

We need to stop this destructive cycle. We need politics to return where it belongs, to LEADERSHIP, to VISION, to TRANSPARENCY, to GOVERNMENT for the COUNTRY rather than government for one vested interest group. If you are tired, if you are spent, if you have no further ideas, MOVE THE HELL ASIDE, and learn the lesson of de Valera, who hung on for years after he was ever any good for anyone, simply out of blind(!) presumption of the right of office despite the inconvenience of democracy or the irritant of anyone else's viewpoint.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

P.S. I spent a whole hour in bed composing a response to this thread, and was very pleased with it. After a quick reread, I was almost ready to hit SUBMIT, when my computer knocked itself off in preparation for a download of Microsoft updates. I lost everything.

To the people in Microsoft who invented the idea of updates that download themselves automatically at just the wrong moment, whether I want them or not, a plague on your houses, I hope your tiny willies fall off, and may you die roaring.

Can well understand frustration when your piece disappeared. Had the same experience couple of times

I have made a few posts here and people have jumped to conclusion I am FF. I made one post and I was sent a warning about being personal so not only will I be careful but will be selective about who I engage with.
To me all issues come under three main heading, economic, social and political. On a percentage basis I would allocate them 70% economic, 20% social and 10% political. Very generous at 10% to political as I think most people at the end of the day do not give two hoots about politics. As Clinton said, " Its economics stupid ! " Politics to me is a game, albeit a serious game, and I worry more about the quality of the mandarins in the public service far more than I worry about politicians.

We operate a PR system in this country which I consider superior than the first past the post system in UK. Whether this system is responsible for how out party system operates I cannot say. What I do say is that like so many other countries we have a left to right bent on ideolgy, FG to the right, Labour, SF, SP and others to the left. I believe FF do not do ideolgy and populism and pragmatism are their hallmarks. I believe all the parties have their core vote and the people who actually decide who is to be government are the 300000 floating voters, thats my figure for illustration purposes only. Sticking with the 300000 I would say they will vote for the party who will put the bread on their table. FF work towards these people and the rest are hamstrung by their ideology. Can anyone blame us floaters ?
For me its very easy to understand why FF have ended up in government so often

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

To me all issues come under three main heading, economic, social and political. On a percentage basis I would allocate them 70% economic, 20% social and 10% political.

That's fair enough, but there is one addition that I would make : ethical. Each to their own in terms of how much they would allocate to it, but it is a factor.

In addition, they have failed spectacularly on the "70% economic", ignoring the warnings and driving us head-first into the crash.

Personally, I would also put social on a higher percentage. In economic terms, there's nothing to stop rampant privatisation of all sorts of things - water, roads, gardai, etc - but on a social footing that would be a disaster.

And again, FF have failed in this regard; the banks' economic gambling failed, and they have lumbered the losses onto all of us.

Laminations

scr123 wrote: »

Can anyone blame us floaters ?

I am also a floating voter although I have never floated near FF because I tend to vote for politicians and parties that put bread on the nations table rather than buy my vote with promises I know will be broken. I also vote based on ethics and standards and on track records so if a party has many 'corrupt' members and protects these members I tend to turn away and vote elsewhere. If a party runs the country intoi the ground, I'll vote elsewhere. Maybe you have the excuse for voting FF in 2002 and 2007 based on you not realising the effects of their running the country - now the effects are apparent, there is no longer an excuse of ignorance or self-interest. They have taken the bread off your table so if a floater votes for them, I certainly can blame them.

Oh and scoring them on your 3 headings:
Economic = FAIL
Social = FAIL
Political = FAIL

Not a great report card

UltimateMale

paddyland wrote: »

Jack Lynch seemed to start out well, a gentleman leader of the country, what vision he had for the future I am not too sure, but he had his particularly diverting issues to deal with during the troubles. His legacy, however, is that later in his career, he was the first Fianna Fáil leader to deliver auction house electioneering, the new idea of 'buying' an election. This idea that actual concrete deliverance on promises didn't matter so much as what looked good on the day, and what sounded well on the posters, would be the swill Fianna Fáil would come to live by day to day.

" Jack Lynch seemed to start out well, a gentleman leader of the country " Lynch a gentleman - a snake oil salesman was more like it. Lynch several times addmitted he joined FF not because he had any conviction about their political outlook, it was just because they were the most populist.

You must have been taken in by Bruce Arnold's BS book " Nice Fellow " about the crooked chancer ( Interesting how Independent Newspapers were anti FF back when Lynch and co misran the country but now are very pro FF ?? ). As you say about Lynch " His legacy....... the new idea of 'buying' an election. "

trapsagenius

UltimateMale wrote: »

" Jack Lynch seemed to start out well, a gentleman leader of the country " Lynch a gentleman - a snake oil salesman was more like it. Lynch several times addmitted he joined FF not because he had any conviction about their political outlook, it was just because they were the most populist.

You must have been taken in by Bruce Arnold's BS book " Nice Fellow " about the crooked chancer ( Interesting how Independent Newspapers were anti FF back when Lynch and co misran the country but now are very pro FF ?? ). As you say about Lynch " His legacy....... the new idea of 'buying' an election. "

I'm not sure if you are referring to independent newspapers as a whole or just to the Indo, but either way your claim is nonsense.Can you not remember the extremely aggressive campaign the media, almost as a whole, orchestrated against Bertie during the 07 election?

Red_Marauder

If someone logged onto this forum from some far flung Polynesian island, I wouldn't blame them for believing most of the users lived under a dictatorship.

I am convinced there are regular posters on here whose entire political thinking revolves around disdain for the political parties, but particularly Fianna Fáil. They simply do not seem to have any other political views. These people never produce alternative ideas, and more significantly, alternative candidates.

Where are all the alternative ideas to the ones put forward by the main parties? Where are all of your candidates at election time? (Where are you at election time?) Where are all of the voters who agree with you?

Therefore, a correction.

Dear Polynesian boards users:
Ireland is a pleasant, wealthy western European nation located in the archepleago of the British Isles. The first thing you must learn if you plan on posting, is never to mention that term or acknowledge our wealth.

The main thing you must learn, however, is that despite all of the contempt for mainstream politics and the general antipathy in which our politicians are held, we do live in a democratic society. The largest party, Fianna Fáil won over 850,000 first preference votes in the last General Election. This amounted to about 40% of first preference votes.

The second largest party, Fine Gael, led by The Real Enda Kenny, won about 30% of first preference votes and Labour won about 10%. This general trend is likely to continue indefinitely with minor fluctuations which will change the balance of power within this group.

Most Irish people vote this way therefore there is no reason to assume they are unhappy with that as a body of people.

Other things you need to know are that we have won the Eurovision more times than any other nation and our national hobbies include bank collecting and watching Property Ladder. The two are not unrelated... c'est la guerre

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

Can you not remember the extremely aggressive campaign the media, almost as a whole, orchestrated against Bertie during the 07 election?

"orchestrated" and "campaign" are emotive and prejudicial language; I'd view it as reporting the facts and questioning inconsistencies and recklessness.

Basically, if we're paying someone €300,000 a year (not including make-up!) then we're perfectly entitled to scrutinise that individual, and if his actions don't meet the standards and ethics required, then it's perfectly valid for a newspaper to highlight this, and to keep plugging away until it gets answers.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"orchestrated" and "campaign" are emotive and prejudicial language; I'd view it as reporting the facts and questioning inconsistencies and recklessness.

Basically, if we're paying someone €300,000 a year (not including make-up!) then we're perfectly entitled to scrutinise that individual, and if his actions don't meet the standards and ethics required, then it's perfectly valid for a newspaper to highlight this, and to keep plugging away until it gets answers.

And your perfectly entitled to view it that way.In fairness, I think we can both agree that we see the same things, we just interpret them differently.I personally thought the way the media treated Bertie in 07 was shameful and at times, and came purely from the fact that many in the media had gotten bored with Bertie and FF after 10 years.

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I am convinced there are regular posters on here whose entire political thinking revolves around disdain for legitimate concerns about the political parties, but particularly Fianna Fáil.

I corrected your 'put-down'

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Dear Polynesian boards users:
Ireland is a pleasant, wealthy western European nation located in the archepleago of the British Isles. The first thing you must learn if you plan on posting, is never to mention that term or acknowledge our wealth.

Yes, a lovely comparison. Wealthy referenced to who, to what, to when? Yes we are wealthy compared to the Haitians or the Greeks, and we are wealthy compared to Ireland of the 40s or the 80s but you completely ignore the potential we had, the waste. You think like a gambler who starts with little and wins €1000 but then loses €900 of it. Yes he has €100 more then he started with, what an optimistic, glass half full way to look at things, ignoring the loses by using an old benchmark or unfair benchmark on which to measure his wealth/success.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

The main thing you must learn, however, is that despite all of the contempt for mainstream politics and the general antipathy in which our politicians are held[/I], we do live in a democratic society.

I'm glad you think so because you'd swear by the way you try and muzzle and belittle those who are complaining that we lived in a dictatorship.
We are complaining because we are not happy, we are trying to change peoples opinions and make them vote for a change in government. Or do I need to run for election to prove I am unhappy with the status quo?

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

And your perfectly entitled to view it that way.In fairness, I think we can both agree that we see the same things, we just interpret them differently.I personally thought the way the media treated Bertie in 07 was shameful and at times, and came purely from the fact that many in the media had gotten bored with Bertie and FF after 10 years.

OK - fair enough.

I personally think it was fine, based on the fact that the way Ahern treated us was "shameful".

If Ahern hadn't done anything wrong, hadn't "lied 4 times" *, and hadn't defended the indefensible, and hadn't delayed the tribunal and cost us even more money, then I'd be with you.

* There's no other way of phrasing this - 5 conflicting explanations and at most one can be true.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK - fair enough.

I personally think it was fine, based on the fact that the way Ahern treated us was "shameful".

If Ahern hadn't done anything wrong, hadn't "lied 4 times" *, and hadn't defended the indefensible, and hadn't delayed the tribunal and cost us even more money, then I'd be with you.

* There's no other way of phrasing this - 5 conflicting explanations and at most one can be true.

And that's your opinion, which I respect.But I haven't commented on the tribunal and don't intend to until it releases its report.

Red_Marauder

Laminations wrote: »

I corrected your 'put-down'

Pretty amateur stuff tbh... is this After Hours?

Yes, a lovely comparison. Wealthy referenced to who, to what, to when? Yes we are wealthy compared to the Haitians or the Greeks, and we are wealthy compared to Ireland of the 40s or the 80s but you completely ignore the potential we had, the waste.

Wow I did say 'don't mention the wealth', I should have taken my own advice.

Eh yes, I do ignore the means of how money has been spent in that paragraph... because it's a different issue. I am referring to our status as a very wealthy nation regardless of how much has been screwed up.

We are complaining because we are not happy, we are trying to change peoples opinions and make them vote for a change in government. Or do I need to run for election to prove I am unhappy with the status quo?

Why not?

I am simply saying that there are people who post here, and we all know who, who never seem to have an alternative plan.

You mention the IFSC and all you get is a tirade on Haughey and the woes of the Irish.
You mention deflation and all you hear is FF a tirade about the woes of the Irish.
You mention TS's golden handshake donation and again, a tirade about the main parties and the woes of the Irish.

To these people. Where is your alternative? Are you doing something about the political system you so vehehemently sneer at?
I have a real problem with the Nua Amhran people who post on here, but I have respect for them because they have gone to the trouble of acting on their words - they actually engage with the political process.

But this political hurler in the ditch attitude of condemning everyone and everything while not actually supprting anyone, is just extremely tiring.

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Wow I did say 'don't mention the wealth', I should have taken my own advice.

Eh yes, I do ignore the means of how money has been spent in that paragraph... because it's a different issue. I am referring to our status as a very wealthy nation regardless of how much has been screwed up.

I can acknowledge we are a wealthy nation (although read this report). That is not how we should measure ourselves. Yes I am optimistic, I'm not wallowing in depression, I am highly educated, I can acknowledge that is down to the boom. You can refer to us as a wealthy nation but you shouldn't do it 'regardless' of the screw-ups.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I am simply saying that there are people who post here, and we all know who, who never seem to have an alternative plan.

You mention the IFSC and all you get is a tirade on Haughey and the woes of the Irish.
You mention deflation and all you hear is FF a tirade about the woes of the Irish.
You mention TS's golden handshake donation and again, a tirade about the main parties and the woes of the Irish.

To these people. Where is your alternative? Are you doing something about the political system you so vehehemently sneer at?
I have a real problem with the Nua Amhran people who post on here, but I have respect for them because they have gone to the trouble of acting on their words - they actually engage with the political process.

But this political hurler in the ditch attitude of condemning everyone and everything while not actually supprting anyone, is just extremely tiring.

Whats my alternative? I will vote FG in the next election, although I'm not a FGer. I like their New Era and Fair Care plans and I think they have a far lower tolerance for corruption. I dont subscribe to the idea that you have to have mapped out your own plan for recovery before you can criticise the obvious mistakes made by the government. I'm not condemning everyone, I'm condemning the government, although again I do recognise the weaknesses in the opposition

Scofflaw

Keep it polite, please.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I am referring to our status as a very wealthy nation regardless of how much has been screwed up.

Just to paraphrase from the Davy report

The stockbroker’s report acknowledges that Ireland was still ranked eighth in the Eurozone in terms of wealth at the end of 2009, but said that years of high income was not enough for a country to become wealthy. To become truly wealthy, a country must invest its money “wisely”, the report noted.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1019084.shtml
Read the above, thats my issue so you can bang on about wealth til the cows highly educated graduates come home

beereilly

Having read this thread it has dawned on me that there may be many people out there struggling to identify themselves politically..You may not be losing any sleep over it but non the less it is fair to say that large amount of people are dissillusioned with the current Political scene. I was previously a FF supporter having been born into it..but one only has to look at the ridiculous way in which they have conducted business and themselves over the past decades to realise that FF is only going to ruin this country (even more!!)..and yes even if the opposition have not won an election since 1982 it doesn't mean what FF is doing is correct. Infact that is the weakest argument to support FF I've heard in some time..

So this left me wondering what to do with myself. Therein followed a period of apathy when one examines the different parties and the options. and this lead me to looking at ecomonic policies so mainly focusing on Capitalism vs Socialism. And the more I read the more I felt like distancing myself from Capitalism..and this was even whilst reading pro capitalism agenda docs. It just doesn't make sense asides from delivering a system riddled with inequalities. So I came to look at Socialism, Marxism and revolutionary socialism..and I did come to this with a huge amount of inner trepidation..wondering what I was getting myself in for. But is a learning experience for sure and my opinions have been coloured and shaped by the people I have met and I really must emphasise that the people I have met through Socialism mainly in the SWP,People before Profit and Socialist Youth have been amongst interesting, intelligent, articulate and inspiring people I've ever met. -Comparing this to the red faced chuckling fools from my FF experience..who really dont even know what it is they represent.

I know that there are many people out there that will think I'm bonkers and have lost the plot but I would be interested to know if there are people who have really examined the possibilities aside from Capitalism and what conclusions they have drawn.

trapsagenius

beereilly wrote: »

Having read this thread it has dawned on me that there may be many people out there struggling to identify themselves politically..You may not be losing any sleep over it but non the less it is fair to say that large amount of people are dissillusioned with the current Political scene. I was previously a FF supporter having been born into it..but one only has to look at the ridiculous way in which they have conducted business and themselves over the past decades to realise that FF is only going to ruin this country (even more!!)..and yes even if the opposition have not won an election since 1982 it doesn't mean what FF is doing is correct. Infact that is the weakest argument to support FF I've heard in some time..

So this left me wondering what to do with myself. Therein followed a period of apathy when one examines the different parties and the options. and this lead me to looking at ecomonic policies so mainly focusing on Capitalism vs Socialism. And the more I read the more I felt like distancing myself from Capitalism..and this was even whilst reading pro capitalism agenda docs. It just doesn't make sense asides from delivering a system riddled with inequalities. So I came to look at Socialism, Marxism and revolutionary socialism..and I did come to this with a huge amount of inner trepidation..wondering what I was getting myself in for. But is a learning experience for sure and my opinions have been coloured and shaped by the people I have met and I really must emphasise that the people I have met through Socialism mainly in the SWP,People before Profit and Socialist Youth have been amongst interesting, intelligent, articulate and inspiring people I've ever met. -Comparing this to the red faced chuckling fools from my FF experience..who really dont even know what it is they represent.

I know that there are many people out there that will think I'm bonkers and have lost the plot but I would be interested to know if there are people who have really examined the possibilities aside from Capitalism and what conclusions they have drawn.

Seriously mate, I wouldn't get too caught up in marxism or revolutionary socialism-they're great ideas in theory but they don't work in the real world.What I think is best, and I think a lot of people would agree with me, is a mix between centre-left and centre-right policies.Generally, I'd favour centre-right policies during lean years such as now, where we need the economy to get moving, but during years of economic growth I'd be more in favour of centre-left policies, so that the disadvantaged in society are looked after. I've always felt you need a certain amount of greed among businessmen for an economy to work, but too much greed lands us in places like the place we're in today.

paddyland

It's not so much about whether we need to lean towards capitalism or socialism in this country. No matter what political ideology emerged in different countries over various periods of history, in too many cases, individual people or organisations came to the fore and twisted the best of those ideals towards selfish interests.

Communism as a theory wasn't too bad until people like Stalin took it and twisted it into a very unhealthy form of totalitarianism. Socialism is commendable until militant trade unionism takes it over with devastating economic results. Capitalism is probably the most realistic proposition, except for the worst elements of it who don't know when to stop raping the planet and walking on people for naked profiteering. Something that has an eye to the best ideals of all these is probably where to look, if that were possible.

So our problem in this country is not so much whether we are capitalist or socialist. It is that we have a political architecture fine tuned over eight decades, to facilitate one elite group of people take control over whatever political philosophy the people adopt, and bend it towards selfish and vested interests. You can be a corrupt socialist or a corrupt capitalist, and there isn't much in the difference. It is the political structure that allows one powerful elite such control that we need to look at first, understand how and why it developed that way, and how it needs to change.

lucernarian

Scofflaw, this is not meant to be a provocative question. Apologies if my intentions backfire!

Through this thread, I have seen a bit of mudslinging to say the least, and your posts interspersed within. I read some of your posts, and I was particularly interested in your point regarding single party dominance.

I could understand all of the points surrounding it except that particular idea. Between PR-STV, the continual coalitions that now shape Irish politics since the PDs jumped on board and the significant minority that is FG in the Dáil and Seanad, is it accurate to apply the idea of Single Party Dominance to either FF or FG if they were to be in power?

In other words, FG have had a reasonalbe share of the popular vote in most elections throughout its history, especially in recent local elections. Thinking of Ireland in terms of Single Party Dominance strikes me as odd.

Liam Byrne

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Through this thread, I have seen a bit of mudslinging to say the least, and your posts interspersed within.

How is stating facts "mudslinging" ?

That sounds like something Cowen or O'Dea might have said about the revelations the other day. :rolleyes: