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Renewable Energy - how will you comply with Building Regulations?

2»

Comments

  • #32
    mr_edge_to_you
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭mr_edge_to_you


    rodred wrote: »
    Hi,

    just trying to figure out how to comply, as roof not suitable for solar
    as shadow from dormers will block sun for half the day.
    not sure have the budget for heat pump air to water or air to air.
    woodpellets seem to be out of favour as supply etc.

    would a solid or gas stove do it, that could do the heating and water at the same time? or is this even possible

    any info much appreciated

    cheers
    hey rodred, we found ourselves in a similiar predicament - house not suitable for solar panels. Despite what people might say about the positives of wood pellets we just weren't convinced. We were left to look at the geothermal option. To be honest it was the first aspect of the house we sussed out. We knew that it was going to cost about 20k. A more traditional system wouldn't exactly cost a lot less (My parents just spent 12k retro fitting a stove and Zoned heating and installing thermostats). A good big stanley stove will set you back a good bit. We really wanted aluclad windows but we were prepared to sacrifice them for the geo thermal. I'm sure if you sit down and look at your figures very carefully you can come up with the dollars for the heating. For example, mdf v solid wood kitchen, pine or red deal v oak etc. You should really go and look at your figures again. You've got to look long term.


  • #33
    PJMCKE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭PJMCKE


    Hi,
    Just wondering if anyone can post details of their setup to make the target of 10kw/m2/yr

    I.E.
    Information
    House size...............................................................
    BER Rating ..............................................................

    Renewable contributions.

    Main space heating...................................................
    Water heating.........................................................
    Secondary heating...................................................

    Other information
    lighting...................................................................
    Ventialation............................................................
    Radiators or underfloor...............................................
    solar sizing...............................................................
    Pellet boiler sizing (modulating with or without storage).....
    Geothermal size and collector information. .......................

    Currently with my house of 2995m2. I cannot fit enough solar tubes (7m long) to comply with regulations so it leaves me very stuck with choices (wood pellet or geothermal). Solar panels were originally water heating but increasing the solar panels to comply with renewable contributions from 3m2 to 7-8m2 required changing the heating system to a multienergy tank to dump the extra water heated by the solar. This in turn required underfloor to take advantage of the stored energy (lower temps)

    BTW: One item i originally misread is the lenght of panels. With tubes the spread of panels is longer (due to everything being is quoted in aperature area) and of course tubes have spaces between them which panels do not and this adds to the length taken up on the roof area. The catch with panels is the yeild is generally lower.

    So i short 7m2 of tubes required 80 tubes and this worked out 7m long => Roof not long enough to take this.

    It is a bit of a mess really.

    This issue should be more prevalent now that it is being enforced by the councils in the building control officers.
    So anyone with real experiences would be appreciated.


  • #34
    Feech La Manna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Feech La Manna


    How ye doin,

    Thought I'd make my first post about how to achieve a B1 BER without wasting money on all the above which are all overpriced, and in some cases just don't work well in this country. You can do the following with your new build which will work;

    • pumped block wall cavity with cosy board on inner wall or equivalent for timber frame - no wall vents
    • good quality, proven external doors and windows with K glass and vents (watch out for the cowboys). Seal window frames well once installed, ensure installer doesn't skimp on the mastic.
    • insulate ceilings (except under tank) and roof well - watch how you insulate the roof, beware of moisture barrier - use vent slates if required.
    • no electric shower - pressurised hot water system instead, run off solid multi-fuel boiler (gets around rule for at least one of the above on new builds as it can burn wood pellets) with an oil boiler as back-up.
    Have a good one.

    G


  • #35
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,294 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Feech La Manna wrote: »
    How ye doin,

    Thought I'd make my first post about how to achieve a B1 BER without wasting money on all the above which are all overpriced, and in some cases just don't work well in this country. You can do the following with your new build which will work;

    • pumped block wall cavity with cosy board on inner wall or equivalent for timber frame - no wall vents
    • good quality, proven external doors and windows with K glass and vents (watch out for the cowboys). Seal window frames well once installed, ensure installer doesn't skimp on the mastic.
    • insulate ceilings (except under tank) and roof well - watch how you insulate the roof, beware of moisture barrier - use vent slates if required.
    • no electric shower - pressurised hot water system instead, run off solid multi-fuel boiler (gets around rule for at least one of the above on new builds as it can burn wood pellets) with an oil boiler as back-up.
    Have a good one.

    G


    eh?? :confused::confused:


    You MUST provide renewable energy sources in your build.!!!

    How do you intend to comply? because what you have posted above does NOT comply.

    A solid fuel boiler is not a substitute for a wood boiler. In order for your renewable requirement to be met, and if using a stove with back boiler, the stove must be a wood burning ONLY stove. Its what is referred to as a dedicated wood stove.

    feech, id suggest you get a professional involved on your build before you start as retrofitting these renewable sources can be very expensive. If you already have a professional involved, and this is the way you have been advised, id suggest looking elsewhere for more educated advise.


  • #36
    Feech La Manna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Feech La Manna


    Sorry, should have clarified that a Wood Burning Variant of a Multi Fuel Stove will comply. ;)


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  • #37
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,294 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Feech La Manna wrote: »
    Sorry, should have clarified that a Wood Burning Variant of a Multi Fuel Stove will comply. ;)

    thats an oxymoron...

    it cant be multi fuel, it must be wood dedicated.

    have you had a provisional DEAP assessment carried out?? using a wood stove as your renewable means you need to increase u values substantially...


  • #38
    taxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭taxman


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    ( would be grateful if you would simply answer these 3 questions, without asking any questions yourselves ..... :) )

    - what renewable energy source are you going to use ?

    Sinnerboy,
    Permit me to ask a question, seeing as its a year later now, what renewable(s) do you generally find best to comply for a 250sqm underfloor (U/S & D/S) dwelling?


  • #39
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,294 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    taxman wrote: »
    Sinnerboy,
    Permit me to ask a question, seeing as its a year later now, what renewable(s) do you generally find best to comply for a 250sqm underfloor (U/S & D/S) dwelling?

    Mind me asking what U/S and D/S is please?


  • #40
    morning delight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭morning delight


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Mind me asking what U/S and D/S is please?

    Probably Upstairs and Downstairs...


  • #41
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,294 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    morning delight wrote: »
    Probably Upstairs and Downstairs...

    that makes sense, thanks...


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  • #42
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    taxman wrote: »
    Sinnerboy,
    Permit me to ask a question, seeing as its a year later now, what renewable(s) do you generally find best to comply for a 250sqm underfloor (U/S & D/S) dwelling?

    By best I take it you mean least expensive .

    So in very general terms ....

    A combination of solar thermal for domestic hot water and a sealed wood pellet stove is probably going to be the smart choice for the one off rural or large suburban site .

    Wood pellet boiler - for space heating and hot water may be an option but you must factor in the not insignificant cost in terms of space and in terms of money for the that part of the building associated with storage of the fuel .

    For a tight suburban site where size and/or roof orientation means solar thermal is not practical the I believe air source heat pump may be the way to go . Vertical bore ground source heat pump if the budget can expand to that - extra over +€5k for the above ground kit + €10-15k for the bores alone

    Wind turbines and solar PV's have much longer payback periods .

    .


  • #43
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    have you had a provisional DEAP assessment carried out?? using a wood stove as your renewable means you need to increase u values substantially...

    Paradoxically syd i think that may be an accidental route to a very good building

    If U Values are pushed past b reg mins and towards passive house standards and you then have the wood pellet boiler on board simply to satisfy b regs .... sounds a bit like the Mosart house doesn't it ?


  • #44
    morning delight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭morning delight


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    If U Values are pushed past b reg mins and towards passive house standards and you then have the wood pellet boiler on board simply to satisfy b regs .... sounds a bit like the Mosart house doesn't it ?

    Hi sinnerboy

    Does this mean if you push your house to passive standard the conditions regarding renewables is relaxed? Or at least how much is it relaxed?


  • #45
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    You would think so - but no .

    It is possible to design and build a house that is so well insulated and ventilated and which by design takes full advantage of solar gains ( i.e. passiv house ) that its requirement for a heat source is less than the min you are obliged to provide in renewables to satisfy b regs .

    Go figure .


  • #46
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,294 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    morning delight wrote: »
    Hi sinnerboy

    Does this mean if you push your house to passive standard the conditions regarding renewables is relaxed? Or at least how much is it relaxed?

    it would be a very ignorant certifier / building control officer to demand part l compliance if supplied with a certification from the passiv haus institute...

    however, if teh build i snot certified to passive levels then it would be reasonable for a certifier / building control officer to demand part l compliance, even if it is counter productive and unwarranted


  • #47
    morning delight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭morning delight


    sinnerboy wrote:
    You would think so - but no .

    It is possible to design and build a house that is so well insulated and ventilated and which by design takes full advantage of solar gains ( i.e. passiv house ) that its requirement for a heat source is less than the min you are obliged to provide in renewables to satisfy b regs .

    Go figure .

    Hmmm, current policy then favours low energy builds with renewables rather than going all out for passive. Given the renewable technology available at the mo that means the grid is under more pressure with this route rather than encourging passiv haus certified build.
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    it would be a very ignorant certifier / building control officer to demand part l compliance if supplied with a certification from the passiv haus institute...

    however, if teh build i snot certified to passive levels then it would be reasonable for a certifier / building control officer to demand part l compliance, even if it is counter productive and unwarranted

    You're at the mercy of the particular certifier coming out to you then and from what I can gather it costs a bit to get the official certification!

    So over all from a strictly financial point of view, low energy build using renewables is the safe bet...


  • #48
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Well 14 months on and solar thermal is proving the most popular . Can I ask folks to now take part here .

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055868850


  • #49
    badgerhowlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 655 ✭✭✭badgerhowlin


    Hi

    I’m going to be going with the wind turbine. I think far better than Solar.

    Think of it like this,(I know people tell me im WRONG with some stuff but I have never tried to be 100% correct)

    When do you need most light\heat
    WINTER.
    In the winter months you get very little sun a lot of wind
    You only get sun in the day times what 8-12 hours a day max, Wind can be blowing 24 hours,
    If you don’t use all your electric produced you SELL it. If you don’t use all your hot water you LOOSE it
    You can heat and light your house with the wind where as you can only heat you house with Solar Unless you go it the Solar PV then you can light your house too only in the day time, when you’re at work! Unless you have storage batteries

    The only problem I see in the wind is the cost but it’s a better trade off I think. I won’t be getting the turbine so I can sell my excess, that’s just a plus. I hope to be fairly self sufficient and not to have to buy much if any electric from the ESB


  • #50
    fclauson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Just doing the pre-build DEAP

    So I need to get to the magic 10Kwh/M2
    Some of this is comming from my secondary heat sorce - a nice eco-friendly wood (only) burning stove

    But I am just under the magic 10 Kw

    So

    decrease the insulation
    which increases the demand from my heat sorce
    and increases my C02
    but I meet my renewable target

    Am I being missing something here - to reach I renewable target it in the above scenario means that I should decrease my insualtion

    Francis


  • #51
    Rogue_art
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 ✭Rogue_art


    The Part L renewable requirement is 10kWh/m2/yr for Renewable energy heat (i.e. wood boiler, solar water heating etc.), but if you do it with Renewable Energy electricity (i.e. Wind Turbine or Solar PV), then the requirement is only 4kWh/m2/yr.
    You can also meet it with a combination of the two, but to put it into perspective a 200sq.m house (large by current economic climate standards), you could meet the Part L requirement for this house with Solar PV alone with a 1 kWp PV system.
    With the way PV prices have come down in the last year you could have a system of this size (installed and inc. VAT) for about €5 to €5.5k.
    Plus generate your own leccy! with no maintenance costs.


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  • #52
    Rogue_art
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 ✭Rogue_art


    badgerhowlin wrote: »
    Hi

    I’m going to be going with the wind turbine. I think far better than Solar.

    Think of it like this,(I know people tell me im WRONG with some stuff but I have never tried to be 100% correct)

    When do you need most light\heat
    WINTER.
    In the winter months you get very little sun a lot of wind
    You only get sun in the day times what 8-12 hours a day max, Wind can be blowing 24 hours,
    If you don’t use all your electric produced you SELL it. If you don’t use all your hot water you LOOSE it
    You can heat and light your house with the wind where as you can only heat you house with Solar Unless you go it the Solar PV then you can light your house too only in the day time, when you’re at work! Unless you have storage batteries

    The only problem I see in the wind is the cost but it’s a better trade off I think. I won’t be getting the turbine so I can sell my excess, that’s just a plus. I hope to be fairly self sufficient and not to have to buy much if any electric from the ESB
    Hi I just came across you post now, thought it looks like it is from some time back!

    Did you go ahead and put in the Wind Turbine? How is it going?

    I have done allot or research into small wind turbines but have yet to find one that doesn't have 'issues'! just look around at the various discussion boards.

    I think your assessment of Wind Vs Solar Electricity is a little flawed if you dont min me saying! You don't need to be generating the electricity at the same time you are using it if you are grid connected, as you effectively use the grid as your means of storage. i.e. you sell your excess to the ESB when you are generating most (daytime and / or summertime), and buy back (or offset it against the cost) when you need to use more (nighttime and / or winter). Plus, whilst this winter is a bit different, the previous two winters had long periods of bright cold conditions, (ideal for solar) but with no wind!

    Also, with the introduction of smart metering the likelihood is that at some point they are going to start charging (and paying) on the basis of whether you are buying or selling at peak demand time or off peak times. This by default should mean that you will get paid more for PV generated electricity (exported during the day) and charged less for when you are buying it back (at night)! I know we are a ways off this yet, but it is probably coming. This is what in most countries the incentive schemes pay more for PV generated electricity than they do for wind generated electricity!

    Also, it is very difficult to predict how much power you will actually produce with wind, but solar is quite predictable. Wind has many moving parts = ongoing maintenance & replacement parts. Solar PV has no moving parts = no maintenance.

    You are right about one thing! the cost of putting in a decent wind turbine is high (but dont forget to also factor in maintenance costs).
    A 6kW Wind Turbine will set you back over €30k whereas a 6kW PV system would be about €20k with little or no maintenance costs.
    If you are taking a long term view, you should also factor in life expectancy. What will the life of a wind turbine with moving parts be? PV manufacturers typically offer 25 year performance warranties but life expectancy of a PV panel is closer to 40 years. I can see a turbine lasting that long!


  • #53
    beyondpassive
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭beyondpassive


    Rogue_art wrote: »
    The Part L renewable requirement is 10kWh/m2/yr for Renewable energy heat (i.e. wood boiler, solar water heating etc.), but if you do it with Renewable Energy electricity (i.e. Wind Turbine or Solar PV), then the requirement is only 4kWh/m2/yr.
    You can also meet it with a combination of the two, but to put it into perspective a 200sq.m house (large by current economic climate standards), you could meet the Part L requirement for this house with Solar PV alone with a 1 kWp PV system.
    With the way PV prices have come down in the last year you could have a system of this size (installed and inc. VAT) for about €5 to €5.5k.
    Plus generate your own leccy! with no maintenance costs.

    I've even heard of 2kWp PV systems (UK post tariff reduction excess stock) selling for below €6k bu a Cork supplier.


  • #54
    Rogue_art
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 ✭Rogue_art


    do you know was that inc. or exc. installation & VAT?
    was it European manufactured or Chinese/other?


  • #55
    beyondpassive
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭beyondpassive


    Rogue_art wrote: »
    do you know was that inc. or exc. installation & VAT?
    was it European manufactured or Chinese/other?

    No idea!, I heard second hand, but I'll ask for a proper quote and revert back.


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