If you were the Minister for Education...

- Remove the compulsory status of Irish in secondary schools, only students who want to do it should do it.
- Improve the teaching and learning of foreign languages. It always suprises me how well foreigners can speak English or other languages after a years of seconday education. There's no reason why we can't have the same levels of teaching here.
- Set a salary cap for all teachers so that the best teachers in the public system can't be tempted away to the private system by bigger wages.
- Improve the sports programmes.

NTMK wrote: »

I would:

1. Drop religion as a subject. its treated as a doss class and its a waste of time imo

2. Drop Irish as a mandatory subject and instead make it mandatory to study a language

3. Change the points system to include an IQ test

4. Change the PE program to include a more sports (swimming golf etc.)

I know this thread is about Secondary Schools but

5. Make it mandatory that a work placement is part of all college courses

PE programme has a full strand dedicated to aquatics - it is just not being implemented properly.

What I'd do if I was Minster for Education is

1 - divide the Irish syllabus into two, one compulsory element which would include teaching conversational Irish, written parts and grammer, and some small aspects of the history of Irish, the second subject being an optional subject with the prose and poetry

2 - change the points system to include either continuous assessment or some form of an IQ exam. or an exam using the MI theory

3 - make maths more relevant, this Project Maths thing is a joke

4 - have proper systems to evaluate how teachers perform, ensure that all teachers are qualified to teach, instead of a one year H.Dip make it at least two years

5 - make two hours of PE compulsory and introduce a new module within PE called health

6 - take care of the students in the middle ground, too often the average students are not looked after, the exceptional students and the weak students get all the attention

7 - as far as I know, CSPE will be coming in as a LC subject in the near future, which is a good step imo

8 - foreign language for all students - in Europe it is not uncommon for people to be able to speak 4 or five languages. Change the syllabus to make the conversational part more important

I'll probably be back later with a few more!

People who give out about the being made to remember "useless information" make me laugh. Choose practical subjects in school and it will help you in life. You might go on to study business but that doesn't mean that the biology you took won't have helped you. Many subjects require allot of consideration to grasp certain concepts. If you use your brain to come to terms with difficult concepts, you will be a brighter, more logical person for it. I think some people weren't arsed studying in school but still fancy themselves to be a weight of intellect.

English- obviously knowing how to read and write is essential, but for secondary school it's a waste of time methinks (especially for the LC). How is poetry in any way as useful as an understanding of biology for example? Read it in your own time if you're so lacking in critical thinking that you actually manage to trick yourself into "getting" it. Besides the whole curriculum is a joke, i actually did next to nothing for english in the LC, used to enter my own little world during english class and never did the homework. Crammed a page of poetry notes the morning of the exam and came out with a C2!!! AN HONOUR- what a complete joke!!! Had that been a real subject i would have failed.

Irish- Complete waste of time aswell. Should be an optional secondary school subject. Think of all the useful information we could teach in primary school instead of it, which leads me to my next point;

Science- most important subject ever (EDIT- ok, knowing how to read/write/do basic maths is more important ). I know being a science student i would say that but in terms of non career-related knowledge that benifits society as a whole the most i really think it is. I think from around 1st class onwards science should play a large part in filling the void left by the removal of Irish from the curriculum.

Languages- A lot like life skills, they're not really something that can be taught very well in a classroom are they? A period of immersion seems to be a lot better. Ideally we'd send students away to whatever country they're learning the language of, atm i'm thinking a bit like an erasmus year but in 4th year (or maybe send them over for say a month out of each year).

Overall, I'd like to see a situation where people care more about critical thinking and gaining a proper understanding of the subject rather than just rote learning and regurgitating that information on the exam paper.

Independant learning is also another thing that really needs to be encouraged in school from a young age, i don't remember any teachers of mine ever mentioning anything to about independant learning- everything was always about what was on the curriculum. Ultimately i think getting people into the habit of independant learning is more important than formal education- Once someone is an independant learner they'll keep getting more educated untill they die. Otherwise their (considerably more narrow) education stops when they're still relatively young.

I think the amount of homework/study expected from secondary school students directly impinges on independant learning, aswell as just being an unfair workload in general. Life is for living, they should be free to develop their own talents and persue their own interests. Even though every student might not make good use of this time it would be worth it for those who do- and the overall effect their increased talent would have on the advancement of society.

However we don't want to decrease the amount of knowledge recieved. Turning 4th year into more of a proper year without an increase in the curriculum might give the neccesary class hours to make up for this. For this to work there would have to be a huge emphasis on doing work IN CLASS rather than just using classes to teach and expecting work to be done at home.

I also think primary school class-hours are far too long. I remember reading in some paper that most students would benifit from shorter hours. Looking back it feels like 95%+ of primary school was a waste of time for me, I think there should be a lot more time devoted to PE, arts and crafts, music and drama and most importantly independant learning (either through books or computers). As much as i hate the idea, perhaps this is where some sort of streaming could be benificial (although i don't think it's fair to increase the advantage of "gifted" children at the detriment of intelligent children who fall short of the entirely man-made cutoff point. You don't need to have a genius IQ to make a massive intellectual contribution to the world (this article on genius would explain what i mean(although it says some stuff i don't agree with)).

Studies of chess masters and highly successful artists, scientists and musicians usually find their IQs to be above average, typically in the 115 to 130 range, where some 14 per cent of the population reside - impressive enough, but hardly as rarefied as their achievements and abilities.
The converse - that high IQ does not ensure greatness - holds as well. This was shown in a study of adult graduates of New York City's Hunter College Elementary School, where an admission criterion was an IQ of at least 130 (achieved by a little over 1 per cent of the general population) and the mean IQ was 157 - "genius" territory by any scaling of IQ scores, and a level reached by perhaps 1 in 5000 people. Though the Hunter graduates were successful and reasonably content with their lives, they had not reached the heights of accomplishment, either individually or as a group, that their IQs might have suggested.

I also think labelling children as "gifted" or "non-gifted" often has an effect on ego which can be detrimental to the intellectual output of both. I think through the promotion of independant learning, gifted children (aswell as just normally intelligent children) will gain the advancement they deserve (aswell as setting up good habits for the future). I don't think special classes are the way to go.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

But, as if said before, the whole point is to cater for people who don't want to go to third level. This belief that people who do third level in some way superior to those who don't, is the snopbbery I'm talking about. And the thinking that education whould SOLELY be about getting into a colelge or university is ridiculous, hence my belief that the overall curriculum needs widening.

I don't think education is about getting into university. You have attacked me and almost every other poster about this. I don't know how you have managed to miss the point of so many posts. I think education is about personal betterment. That involves (for most people) working hard at difficult concepts and pushing the limits of your logic. Out of formal education, there are very few situations where your brain is tested to the same level, and it would be a wasted opportunity if you didn't take advantage of that.

This is not a nanny state, and morals and values shouldn't be taught to children in school off the back of the taxpayer. Like every other generation, they should learn that at home!

UNFORTUNATELY most people will have to go to college, or do some further study or training. A friend of mine on the dole tells me she got a letter saying if she didn't do a degree there is a possibility that she will NEVER have a career. This happened to many people in the last big recession- by the time it had finished they were so far behind people who either clinged onto jobs, or stayed in college learning the whole time, that nobody would employ them. The last thing you want to be is an unqualified, unexperienced young person in this climate. Young people know that. Nobody thinks graduates are better than people who didn't go to college, but it would be foolish not to go to college while it's still mostly paid for by the taxpayer. If you don't agree, look on jobs.ie and find a job that says "no qualifications or experience required".

UNFORTUNATELY 72,000 people applied to the CAO this year, and there is only space for about half of them in 3rd level institutions. If they want to get anywhere, they'll have to study harder.

I absolutely agree with people who are saying more P.E and nutrition and health exams.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

A lot of people have gotten quiet far without degrees. Alan Sugar didn't have one, for example when he started (I think he has now, but it was awarded later).

My point is that, if you believe those who did third level are superior to those who didn't, you're being snobbish about it.

I accept your point about challenging the brain, definitely, and about education should be about personal betterment, but I'm not entirely sure this happens as the focus is on exams and points rather than self-development.

In this day and age, you need a third level qualification to get a good job, nothing snobbish about it, and I don't think anyone is saying that people who have degrees are superior. Its not about being superior, its about getting what you need to get a good job at the end of the day.

I heard recently that a job being a hospital porter required the person applying to have done their LC and done half decently in it as well.

The exam system has ruined the Irish education system; the focus on points and college entry system has created a monster. I'd be in favour of continuous assessment, but the bottom line is about how much it costs, and the one off terminal exams are cheapest, rather than having six exams in the two years, where you need supervision etc.

Chinafoot wrote: »

When I say continuous assessment I dont necessarily mean in an exam setting. For my degree, 25% of my assignments counted towards my final mark. Each subject in secondary school should have 3 large assignments/projects throughout the school year which would add up to 30% or so and is then added to their exam mark.

I hadn't seen you post before I posted, I was typing for a while!

Projects would be a great idea, but then you have the cost of external examiners coming out to look at them, but I think a system could be implemented all right if the Gov put the money there. What it would require is a major overhaul of the current system - there is a complete review of the whole Irish curriculum at the moment. I think make it more, make it 40%, so with an excellent project, a person can nearly scrape a pass - it sets up more people for success. It is also reflective of current set up in business where projects are important. Teamwork is also important, but I think that each individual student should have their own project, so that they are accountable to themselves. In teams, it may happen that one person does all the work and everyone in the team gets the credit though

it is interesting that everyone is talking about curriculum changes. If I was minister for education I would
1: Remove all prefabs from schools and instigate a proper school building program. Some schools in Ireland still have outside toilets
2: Ensure all teachers are qualified to teach the subjects they teach( Yes I know the teaching council is in the process of doing this)
3: Vet all school workers and those with access to schools (Teachers, cleaners, priests etc). Once vetted your vetting should last for a X time period and allows you to work in other schools. No need to be revetted for every school in X time period
4: School bus program. Standardise all school buses, make, model style etc and sub contract on a national basis. These buses would then be available during the day if required for school outings out wise use them for rural transport scheme.
5: Sub teachers should be qualified teachers at both primary/secondary level and not just a friend/relation of another teacher
6: Retired teachers. Once retried and in receipt of a state teachers pension they should not be allowed to work as sub teachers in schools. Too many retired teachers are working as sub teachers preventing newly qualified teachers from getting jobs
7: Remove Irish from the primary sector and make it an optional language at the secondary level. Too many students leave primary with an inability to speak/spell english yet up to 1/3 third of their time in primary school is spent teaching Irish.
8: Force third level to accept Irish as a foreign language and remove the requirement for pass irish to gain entry to any of the NUIs.
9: Review disadvantaged schools. A lot of schools are still classified as disadvantaged and all pupils receive free breakfasts etc. Should be reviewed on an annual basis
10: Electricity supplies. Should be a national tender to supply electricity to all schools with the lowest winning. Currently ESB supplies. Could be a big cost saving.
11: As above for phones, oil, heating etc
12: School books in particular primary. Work sections should replaceble each year and not the entire book
13: Local schools districts with directly elected parents to overview schools in the area
14: Merge the VECs. Too many of them. Some such as Dublin have a large number of schools others have 1-2 schools. Or at least merge the back office functions
15: Dept of Ed. Proper school capacity planning.

I have some more and might post later

Get rid of Irish and Religion.

Bring in a... rem.... how to explain it... A how to be a normal member of society class? Like teach kids not to be little scumbag pricks, manners, etc...

Other useful classes, how to apply for a job, interviews, driving lessons, etc...