If you were the Minister for Education...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

... what changes in secondary school subjects would you make?

I made a post a while back, can't remember which thread, too lazy to look it up, about the education system not being rounded enough and needing to teach more than just intellectual sh1t and prepare for college; and was quiet surprised when it went down rather well. Anyway, it got me thinking about what should or should not be part of the junior and leaving certs.

Personally, I'd bring in meditation/spirituality (NOT to be confused with religion/catholicism), driving lessons and office studies (as in typing, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, not making tea or shagging the secretary/boss) as full syllabi, alongside history, geography and the like. I'd also downgrade ALL subjects to optional after the junior cert. Don't think I'd get rid of anything altogether though.

(I know some of these things might already be happening - it's been a while since I was in school !

So, floor is yours. If you had the power, what would you remove or add?

MaybeLogic

+1 on the meditation.
Proper sex education.
Proper drug education (no chance).

Scrambled egg

More emphasis on actual education rather than on remembering useless information.

K4t

Sexual education obviously but also alcohol awareness. It really can take over in college. Some of the things I've seen and experienced in one semester of college as a result of alcohol abuse is frightening.

Teutorix

Eliminate the presence of all mentions of any form of spirituality from classes, including religion.
Schools are "educational" institutions not religious ones.

SeaFields

An emphasis on subjects which will aid in our building of a knowledge economy...
and make it more of a culture.

- More business orientated languages
- Programming

I'm sure others could add to this.

I wouldn't downgrade all subjects - a high level of maths is a must I think (taught by qualified teachers)

pablomakaveli

With Irish i would change it so students would spend less time reading poems and stories and instead put more focus on teaching them how to converse in Irish.

Maybe change the religion class to a type of culture class where the students learn about other cultures and beliefs.

Proper sex education.

A class where kids can learn basic computer skills which is essential these days. I was lucky enough to have a computer lab in my school where we were taught how to use excel and word etc.

bleg

I'd take the current higher level maths programme for the leaving cert as the benchmark. The exams frequently involve encountering a tough problem looking at it logically and using what you've learned to solve the problem. Requires actual thought and not regurgitation. Critical thinking is essential.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Teutorix wrote: »

Eliminate the presence of all mentions of any form of spirituality from classes, including religion.
Schools are "educational" institutions not religious ones.

There is a BIG difference between "religion" and "spirtuality"!!! I'd leave religion in, but as an optional, and teaching about ALL different faiths. It;s no less relevant in understanding cultures and ways of the world than history or geography.

---

Interesting point about the maths. I think, though, a seperate problem-solving course would be needed, because with maths, it doesn't train you how to actually transfer it to everyday situations. I did honours maths, so I see what you mean, but it's way to evolved.

Still think they should all be optional though - if you're going for a career that needs it, fine, then choose it, but that doesn't mean that everyone should.

I'd include relationship issues in the sex education (but that was probably implied anyway)

rantyface

Scrambled egg wrote: »

More emphasis on actual education rather than on remembering useless information.

Like history, geography, maths, science, languages, music, art...? Why are people so opposed to learning facts and skills? Personal development happens naturally. It can't be forced. Any attempts by my teachers to start philosophical debates in class were met with scoffing and eye-rolling. Also people were generally too embarrassed to voice their opinions.

My experience of a science degree is that it involved a LOT of learning for the first three years, and then for my thesis I applied what I knew to design new drugs. They didn't work... but it was great fun all the same and I couldn't have done it if I hadn't "remembered information". Same for music- scales, theory classes and technical exercises are boring but you can't play Beethoven if you don't learn the hard stuff first.

I have forgotten most of the History I learned for junior cert, but I liked it at the time, and people who enjoyed it more went on and studied it more. Remembering information is also a skill in itself- some people don't know how to study!

I think the standards will go up with the increased competition. Only half of the students applying to go to university will get in now. I don't really think Irish should be mandatory for leaving cert provided you study at least one language other than English.

What do you mean by "actual education" then?

partyatmygaff

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Maybe change the religion class to a type of culture class where the students learn about other cultures and beliefs.

That's what it is already...



Anyways for the Leaving Cert Anyways


-More Computer based subjects, Programming e.t.c. Not "Office Skills" or some BS like that
-Driving class as a non-exam subject
-Splitting Irish into two electives, one for Literature and one for Conversational Irish
-Pushing the marks weighting of the Oral and Aural exam to 60% for all exams.
-Revising the business/accounting syllabus to modernise it by adding computer systems (Not the crap that it is now a la "What does RAM stand for?")

SeaFields

partyatmygaff wrote: »

-Splitting Irish into two electives, one for Literature and one for Conversational Irish

That's a very good idea. Perhaps the latter a junior cert subject and the former an optional leaving cert program.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

rantyface wrote: »

Like history, geography, maths, science, languages, music, art...? Why are people so opposed to learning facts and skills? Personal development happens naturally. It can't be forced. Any attempts by my teachers to start philosophical debates in class were met with scoffing and eye-rolling. Also people were generally too embarrassed to voice their opinions.

No problem with this, but at the moment there is a top-heavy imbalance is knowledge and fact based. What's the point in having this knowledge if you can't use it to form an opinion, and what's the point of having one if you can't express it?

My experience of a science degree is that it involved a LOT of learning for the first three years, and then for my thesis I applied what I knew to design new drugs. They didn't work... but it was great fun all the same and I couldn't have done it if I hadn't "remembered information". Same for music- scales, theory classes and technical exercises are boring but you can't play Beethoven if you don't learn the hard stuff first.

I have forgotten most of the History I learned for junior cert, but I liked it at the time, and people who enjoyed it more went on and studied it more. Remembering information is also a skill in itself- some people don't know how to study!

I think the standards will go up with the increased competition. Only half of the students applying to go to university will get in now. I don't really think Irish should be mandatory for leaving cert provided you study at least one language other than English.

You seem to think that the whole point is University. Well, a lot of people have no interest in further education: should they just be dragged along until? Why does it have to be a competition...? (Not saying NONE of it should be, which brings me back to my original point of introdicing a bit of variety)

If you're writing a thesis in something, you're not in secondary school. By that stage things are a LOT more specific and you've CHOSEN to go down that path.

What do you mean by "actual education" then?

Can't answer this, as I never said it.

Hank_Jones

Certainly think that they should be taught about giving presentations.
This will allow them to get better confidence infront of crowds from an early age and prepare them for a large part of business etc.

I honestly can't remember ever having to stand in front of a group of people and deliver a speech.
Certainly got a shock when I reached college and I was expected to do it pretty much every week/month.

Teutorix

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

There is a BIG difference between "religion" and "spirtuality"!!! I'd leave religion in, but as an optional, and teaching about ALL different faiths. It;s no less relevant in understanding cultures and ways of the world than history or geography.

That was my point, I am sick of my religion teacher rambling on about god and all that other fairytale ****e. the class is about studying the religions of the world, their structure their beliefs etc. ITS NOT FÚCKING SUNDAY SCHOOL

bleg

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Interesting point about the maths. I think, though, a seperate problem-solving course would be needed, because with maths, it doesn't train you how to actually transfer it to everyday situations. I did honours maths, so I see what you mean, but it's way to evolved.

Still think they should all be optional though - if you're going for a career that needs it, fine, then choose it, but that doesn't mean that everyone should.

Well it's the logical thought processes that I would take as benchmark i.e. transfer it to other subjects. I know it would work well in Biology, Chemistry and Physics at LC level.

It definitely stood to me in university when I was dealing with more complex logic.

spurious

A great deal of what people are suggesting here is already done in the Applied Leaving Cert..

pablomakaveli

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That's what it is already...

It mainly only deals with different beliefs or at least when i was in school it did. In terms of culture it was only culture that was related to belief. I'm talking about learning about cultures without being limited to the cultures of belief for example learning about culture in the Far-East or African culture.

SeaFields

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Still think they should all be optional though - if you're going for a career that needs it, fine, then choose it, but that doesn't mean that everyone should.

I think there are essentials that should make up the curriculum. Maths being one. Its brings a different type of thinking....one that is different from the identical culture of regurgitation that most subjects involve.

I don't think subject should be chosen at this level with one eye on a career. We pick these at 14 or 15 years of age. Too young IMO to be considering a future career but other may beg to differ.

Hank_Jones

spurious wrote: »

A great deal of what people are suggesting here is already done in the Applied Leaving Cert..

Ahh yes, but what percentage of students are doing the applied leaving cert?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

bleg wrote: »

Well it's the logical thought processes that I would take as benchmark i.e. transfer it to other subjects. I know it would work well in Biology, Chemistry and Physics at LC level.

It definitely stood to me in university when I was dealing with more complex logic.

In other words, further study. But I see what you mean: I just don't think it works as well within a specific subject. Students who don't like/aren;t good at a particualr subject won't benefit.

bleg

Students should be thought how to think and not spoonfed. Especially the brighter ones.

Teutorix

spurious wrote: »

A great deal of what people are suggesting here is already done in the Applied Leaving Cert..

Most people view the LCA as "loosers cant achieve" or "lets count apples" and other such funny reverse acronyms

bleg wrote: »

Students should be thought how to think and not spoonfed. Especially the brighter ones.

This is my biggest problem in school, the teachers talk to me like im 5, not to sound cocky but im probably smarter than almost all of them. (-_-)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Teutorix wrote: »

Most people view the LCA as "loosers cant achieve" or "lets count apples" and other such funny reverse acronyms

Oooh.... do I detect a wiff of intellectual snobbery...?!

Teutorix

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Oooh.... do I detect a wiff of intellectual snobbery...?!

I said most people... like the same people that take the piss out of me because im an atheist.

phasers

Yep, LCA was always seen as the idiot's Leaving Cert in my school, probably because out of the class of 15 6 of them were pregnant by the end of 6th year, and 12 of them are now on the dole


I'd make Irish optional and teach it like French is taught, Bring in Driver's ed, proper sex education, and overhaul several of the courses to focus more on actual education than people just remembering facts.

amacachi

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Oooh.... do I detect a wiff of intellectual snobbery...?!

When most of the maths paper is Primary-School level stuff I find it hard to blame people who feel that way.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Teutorix wrote: »

I said most people... like the same people that take the piss out of me because im an atheist.

Fair enough - but I think the LCA has its place. However, judging by your ealier post lumping religion in with athiesm, I am of the felling that "other people" might just include yourself.

In other words (and apologies if wrong) you seem to think that if you don't get something from it, it's pointless to everyone.

spurious

Teutorix wrote: »

Most people view the LCA as "loosers cant achieve" or "lets count apples" and other such funny reverse acronyms

Of course they do and most of them know nothing about it.

The same people think 'the VEC' isn't good enough for them at 12, but charge for places at PLCs in VEC schools when their 'oh so much better school' didn't result in them getting enough points to get directly into college.

Irish snobbery - one of the many things that holds us all back.

partyatmygaff

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Oooh.... do I detect a wiff of intellectual snobbery...?!

Well, the fact that most people who do LCA (In my School at least) are the laziest "I don't care about school, look at how cool I am" retards that you could find.

It's the same as foundation level subjects tbh. It's meant to be for those who are very weak in an area but most of the people who choose foundation do it because they can't be bothered doing anything more challenging.

partyatmygaff

Teutorix wrote: »

This is my biggest problem in school, the teachers talk to me like im 5, not to sound cocky but im probably smarter than almost all of them. (-_-)

Somehow I doubt you've went to university and studied all that they have.



Seriously, that's like "I amn't a racist but...."