Is Kung Fu worth a try?

They say the sabre strengthens the Yi (intent), the sword strengthens the Chi (cardio-vascular / respiratory / nervous systems), and the spear generates wisdom.

The sabre's animal is the tiger, and so it is practiced with long and low stances, and a crouching and pouncing approach, excellent for getting in and out of range in a more linear fashion.
In single form practice this strengthens the legs, back and ribcage, because the sabre is a single bladed weapon correct usage demands that when circulating the body the far end of the spine of the sabre is kept in contact with the bode, so it slips without gaps from the forearms to the shoulders to the back along the other arm along the shins. This generates what’s called blade awareness. And this medium is far to restricted to explain such a benefit and how it translates to empty hand and every other weapon without me writing a thesis.
In dual practice, dual forms and technique practice, timing range and angle three core aspects of martial arts are honed to a whole other level, think about it you can’t really use your shins or forearms to block a sabre as you would a punch / kick?

The swords animal is the phoenix or dragon, and so involves coiling movements and recovery, so yes you learn to twist up an opponent, and a lot of evasion skills with spinning sweeps etc. but also a lot of fine "spiralling" techniques a skill called "gathering the wave" or "gyrating arms" from the sanshou techniques is employed it can be large or small, but with the sword is brought to a level where the slightest spiralling flick is used to divert or slash the wrist and disarm, take balance away and pull an opponent onto the sword as it recovers and thrusts through targets such as the eyes, throat and chest. Piercing the chest with a Jian requires finer blade awareness "to fit in-between the ribs etc." Practicing such, again feeds back into everything else you do, allowing more subtle leverage to be applied to throws / locks or to become more fluent transforming from jabs to upper cuts to hooks to overhands etc... So whereas a sabres general moves are large save the two-handed short-range stuff, the sword due to its second edge, gives some more options regarding quick reflexive movements, however it also somewhat restricted, as you don't wave a Jian over your head, unlike a sabre, and you don't block a downward attack to your head similarly as you might end up with your own weapon embedded in your skull? Sorry this is hard to explain it’s like explaining a colour in writing?

The spear's animal is the horse and dragon; this weapon could in fact be the foundation of the internal martial arts. Triple tip theory, focus, six harmonies, seven star theory, nine palace theory all stems from ancient spear manuals. its two handed and both ends are used, it differs from a staff in its defensive movements, as instead of spinning big power generating arcs, knocking a weapon away and hitting with the other end, we use small rotations of the tip to deflect, entwine, disarm and thrust. The often miss-termed Fa Jing (it translates as discharging power) a type shaking short precision strike is the hallmark of spear play, used to disarm or to knock an opponent who might grab the spear. You will learn in sparring how to keep an opponent at the tip of the spear, range, focus and movement is a vital skill trained, this isn't easy, as a spear becomes a burden if your opponent closes the gap, sometimes better to let go and fight with the hands then, hence wisdom.

They also say 100 days spear, 1000 days sabre and 10000 days sword.

Hope this was useful and not too vague?

Ug Lee wrote: »

Niall,

You spar with your Tai-Chi, enter competions, etc. What percentage of empty hand Tai-Chi do you use in Sanda, Sanshou?

For example, a Hapkido guy could state that Hapkido is a pressure tested art but when he fights all he does are low roundhouse kicks and punches that look like jabs, crosses. He pressure tests 5% of Hapkido and claims that it validates the other 95%.

Is it the same with your Tai-Chi? I can't see anything in your Sanshou competitions that justifies the amount of time you spend doing forms, push hands, chi-kung, etc.

I'm one of Niall's fighters and personally I spend about 20/25 minutes a day doing chi-kung and 15/20 minutes doing the form (which i do about every other day).
I don't really bother with the push hands (as I don't do the wresting comps) but it's something I need to do more as it has great application when doing the throws in Sanshou.
It's not a whole lot of time really.

100 percent tai chi techniques, in the fight compilation clip on our site where I scoop a kicking leg and punch him to the ground this is called "brush knee twist step" where I grab his legs shoulder his abdomen and throw him this is called "double seize legs" when I next step around his legs, kneel into the back of his knee, and throw him behind me this is called "embrace tiger and return to mountain" where I use two hand as a platform to throw back his roundhouse this is called "step up seven stars" .......... On striking techniques they are delivered from a "seven star guard" techniques on the clips include "gyrating arms", "rolling thunder palm" "five element fist", "flying flower palm", and I believe one "parry and punch" many of these techniques occur constantly through the form, some are public techniques others inside the door techniques. Inner form techniques can only be taught to those with skill already developed to appreciate them they are not secret, however many "sifus" do not know them as they or their teachers never reached that level and so what they now practice and teach is a shadow of the real tai chi Chuan so I understand how people misunderstand to the point of no longer recognizing the training methods or application of the true transmission.
By the way before you say for example well double seize legs is a double leg takedown which it is remember that mention of such techniques exist in nei jia literature since the 16th century, so it's not a judo throw, but if anything the judo throw is a nei jia throw as jujitsu was first taught in Nagasaki by two Chen brothers (not chen family tai chi) who were from china and practices nei jia Chuan (old term for tai chi Chuan) in 1650.
But you don't hear me telling other arts that they're only copying tai chi Chuan! As arts are based on approach and strategy not the techniques derived from leverage of the human body - hence the external similarities of all arts. So tai chi strategy is conditioned in our tui shou and San shou drills so again if you examine the afore mentioned clips look how I say rub his shoulders to faint a high technique before I sink and seize his legs there is no pause for thinking it seems seamless as drills I have practiced have developed the ability to use opposites and to "follow" his reactions immediately. Etc etc .... This is real tai chi Chuan. Really I don't think your attitude deserves such an in depth explanation, and I expect you'll give your expert opinion on my art and contradict me but I expect I'll have explained the art thoroughly enough for those without an agenda who are reading this to judge for themselves

Sorry but that's just simply insulting how many people with just as you say 3-6 months of kickboxing won 83 out of 87 international fights and how many were ranked 4th in world pro rankings? I now have students ranked within the top 5 European pro league with over 30 fights I have gone overboard explaining the relevance of what we do so Before you go futher ask yourself are you really qualified to ask such questions what have you achieved to question our methods?

Ug Lee wrote: »

As I said, this is not about me. I don't need any qualifications before I can question your methods.

You and your students have done well in these competitions and fair play to you. I am sure you work and train hard and I respect that.

However I feel that you have gotten these results from training Sanshou, not from training Tai-Chi.

Just to qualify, Ug, we train in Tai-Chi Chuan but we fight in competitions under Sanshou rules.
Sanshou isn't a style per se.

Wrong....
A Choy le fut guy will probably use a lot of spinning back fists from experience and not a lot of throws, most tai chi fighters I know will prefer to fight in close. Sanshou is a platform forgive the pun it is like two goal posts at either end of a field you can put the ball on the back of the net with a gaa approach or a soccer approach I'm sure if you found a tribe from the darkest part of the amazon they initially might think both the same and some of the traaining methods may even be similar but chances are the soccer lad won't solo the ball too well if he gets shouldered and the gaa guy mightn't be able to bend it like beckam? You're right theyre both football but if you think that means they're identicle then you should have gone to specsavers!
Do you get it sanshou is a set of rules based on the traditional lei tai comps that allows the choy le fut fut guy the opportunity to try out his spinning back fist and the Tai chii guy to test out that sweep he knows as single sweep lotus leg you could of course take a generic approach just like a mcdonnalds handburger and maybe ug that's what you want to live on? But some of us demand a little more flavor!

To break this down real simple, what is a typical wudang tai chi Chuan class start off hand stands on fists - traditional then a traditional "rolls" excercise then practicing traditional wudang drills on the bags such as rolling thunder punching, gyrating arms, flying flower palm etc etc..... Then practicing individual wudang techniques in a traditional round robin format. Then some tui shou and freestyle moving push hands- wrestling as is traditional finally sanshou type sparring with gloves on and a form to cool down just like Cheng Tin Hungs classes of the 50's interestingly there exists videos from back then with him training what's remarkable is the similarity of approach but hey it worked then and it does now.. And I ain't fixing something that ain't broke. Nei gung and forms are homework they can be practiced alone. So try and absorb this I teach tai chi Chuan as it was passes down through a long line of fighters. It's method has been proven effective again and again and one of the traditional ways wudang tests it's effectiveness is to enter onto full contact competitions hence the other name coined by hong kong journalists practical tai chi Chuan. Can you train for sanshou on a modern generic fashion of course. Sanshou is designed to cater for many approaches that's the point of it. Your faulty logic seems to suggest that therefore you should adopt a generic approach for a specific sport. This is the tail wagging the dog. Sanshou is a tool I encourage my students to use to improve their over all skills, to pressure test their abilities. Tai chi skills trained in traditional tui shou drills such as adherance can be pressure tested and improved through the medium of competitive sanshou these skills will then translate to weapons etc you see it's probably wiser to pressure test such skills through sanshou rather than with live blades. As for forms and nei gung etc all teach specific abilities that we find useful hence we practice them and we use sanshou as a reality check of quality standards get it?

I understand that Sanshou is not a style but like you said, it can be trained in a generic way.

If fighting ability is your end goal and Sanshou competition is a reflection of this fighting ability then it seems you can attain this fighting ability without learning Tai-Chi. If learning Tai-Chi takes a long time, I think you mentioned 10 years before Tai-Chi leaves the door, then you are better off learning generic Sanshou or Thai-Boxing with a bit of Judo as you can learn it faster and spend the other time learning ground fighting or making love to your girlfriend.

However if there is more to Tai-Chi than what is shown in Sanshou competitions then this is another thing. Again, about what percentage of Tai-Chi is typically used in a Sanshou competition?

Ug Lee wrote: »

However if there is more to Tai-Chi than what is shown in Sanshou competitions then this is another thing. Again, about what percentage of Tai-Chi is typically used in a Sanshou competition?

In Niall's case, 100% since he only ever learned Tai-Chi.
In my own case all the punches, takedowns, strategising etc. are Tai-Chi I may have borrowed a couple of kicks from elsewhere.

Ug Lee wrote: »

Actually it does look like external Kung-Fu, etc. I had a look at this clip and all I saw you doing were jabs, right crosses, I think one round kick and a few takedowns. There seemed to be some clashing going on using brute force. Not a great advertisement for Tai-Chi.

What I am looking for, I don't see???? Now we are into a different realm.

Again, if there is more to Tai-Chi than this,,,,,?

Are we looking at the same clip?
You're either too blinded by your own prejudice or you've simply no idea what you're looking at.
Which Sanshou competitions do you fight (or have fought) in, incidentally?
And where did you study Tai-Chi Chuan? (or 'where did you get your ideas about Tai-Chi?' is probably more accurate)

Do you hear his "critique" re brute force, grasshopper was probably expecting you to use empty force! Lol
just jabs etc.... Yea guys where were the fireballs? Lol
what was it Dan Docherty used to call these guys... Pigmy detractors!

MaybeLogic wrote: »

In Niall's case, 100% since he only ever learned Tai-Chi.

I won't respond to my being a 15 year old, troll, etc as they distract from my questions and your answers.

I also don't need to study Tai-Chi, take part in Sanshou competitions to question what you do. The same as you don't need to do all other types of Tai-Chi, Kung-Fu etc to question/pass judgement on them. You guys have made statements at the beginning of this thread. I am questioning these statements and digging a little deeper as there are some things that don't make sense to me.

I am not asking what percentage of what you use in Sanshou is Tai-Chi. I am asking what percentage of Tai-Chi overall is used in Sanshou. For example are there wrist locks in Tai-Chi and if so are they used in competition?

By the way, if your neigung is so good, why do you use chest protectors in competitions?

Ug best you could do for yourself is to come out of your comfort zone and do a sanshou fight. Then you'll have answers to your "questions" and will be able to abandon hearsay beliefs. See every fighter has been in both worlds before he had fought and his then understanding and after some experience, youre like the proverbial toad in the well with a limited perspective.

You are right guys. I don't know much about Tai-Chi and a little about Sanshou. And I do like and respect your approach to Tai-Chi and Sanshou. I also like to debate another persons point of view or statement and see where it leads. I also like to highlight gaps that I percieve in another persons logic. Its like chess.

I feel that there might be more to Tai-Chi than I saw in the videoclips of competitions and if there wasn't then there is no need to learn forms, push hands,etc as you could learn these skills by learning skills generic to Sanshou. Padwork, sparring, takedowns, etc.

I feel there may be parts of Tai-Chi's self-defence that don't transfer too well to competition but are to be valued as self-defence as I believe the link between self-defence and competition is a subjective one and not set in stone and this is where the benefit of forms, push hands comes in.

However I admit I may be wrong on all of the above but at least I now know a little more about your Tai-Chi than I did a day or two ago. Your argument challanged me and I hope I challanged you guys a little too.

Best wishes,

Ug;)

Sorry Barry but from where I'm standing someone has basically said that what we do is irrelevant, and could be accomplished with in his words 3-6 months Muay Thai and Judo, at first we answered THOUOUGHLY the reasoning and benifits of what we do, we also qualified this with results and vids. "As far as I can see you'd be better off" is not a question its a statement I don't give a rats kjki about a question mark.
Now I may not agree with or understand every approcah out there, but I have respect for arts and clubs that have tested themselves and demonstrated results. I have never taken the pss out of any fighters here on boards or commented on their videos in a disparaging way, because I am wise enough to know my limitations, that I dont know everything, and that arts that have a proven record obviuosly work. When I meet such people I often engage re. their approach and try to learn something, I do not call into question the validity of what they do, they've already proved this. That would be simply disrespectful.
Look over the post and there's gold dust there for anyone practicing tai chi chuan, I have explained sanshou and weapon training etc. I think we have contributed. But I aint christian and I wont turn the left cheek, if someone calls me on my art I will defend it. BTW whats with the "wishy-washy" remark?

I don't see where he accused Tai Chi of being the equivalent of 6 months of MT/Judo, I see a remark in that vein but it doesn't look that offensive to me. I would ask the same question. If tai chi takes ten years of learning, is it not an innefficient way of getting what you want out of it, or is what you want out of it only attainable through ten years of learning?

Thats a bit contradictory Barry, and re. the ten years this is a Ug misquote that we addressed, for the reason evident here, now we're being accused of it - fling enougn shct at a wall and some of it will stick and all. Please recheck posts.

Re. "borrowing energy" I have never used that term, again recheck, and have in fact often critised people for using the term energy when either strength, intent, respiratory fittness and skillful power is in different cotexts a more correct translation. Barry if you think that we are a typical tai chi fantacy group easy to have a pop at I suggest you ask Clive Staunton refing / coaching on your vids who'll set you straight as he has trained with us, competed for us and can confirm we're a no bs style.

Fair enough Barry, appologies guess I'm getting wires crossed here, I'm more than happy to explain what and why we train the way we do. I just felt that in the other case we had gone overboard with more than sufficient and helpful explanations, and when he took a pop at one of my fighters vids re. brute force etc. which I should mention is the great sin in Tai Chi Chuan, which grasshopper obviously knows or googled, as a coach I felt well what the f'8k is this?

"If it's self defense then forget TMA. Sure, some of them can give you improved levels of fitness and the ability to use your hands and feet a bit better, but they don't compare to modern systems. MMA is the only way to learn how to properly fight. You'll need to train in grappling as well as striking."

oh no! Another one has hit puberty!!! Google sanshou/ sanda, educate yourself!